TheInvisibleDan

Mark graciously wrote: "You're right on that count. But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Marcionite belief system came into being around the middle of the second century..." Someone recently wrote me and asked a similar question relating to the dating of Marcion, which I hope you don't mind me reproducing here: "I have frequently seen that Marcion was excommunicated in July of 144 by the Roman Church. Would you know the source document for this information?" [my reply] Dear ___, Tertullian (Adversus Marcionem, Bk. I, ch. 19) would appear to be the main source for this date, though precisely what was the significance to the Marcionites reckoning 115 years and 6 1/2 months "between Christ and Marcion" has been a point of debate with scholars. Apparently Harnack's interpretation, that this represented the day of Marcion's excommunication from the Roman Church, has been quite popular. As Blackman mentions in "Marcion and His Influence" (p.3), others have interpreted this differently, as the day Marcion left Pontus, to the day of Marcion's death (Barnikol), the latter theory which Blackman also reviews in greater detail in Appendix 2 (p.20). Epiphanius (Panarion 42.I) is a source for Marcion's meeting and controversy with the church presbyters in Rome, over his interpretation of the "new wine/old wineskins" parable (Luke 5:36, 6:43). " This is only the tip of the iceberg to considering a myriad of points relating to the dating of Marcion's life. It seems quite probable - even reasonable if only considering the time required for any new movement to catch hold - that Marcion and his movement goes back further than circ.150 CE. If 144 A.D was significant to Marcionites by reason of it having represented Marcion's break from the Great Church to begin his own movement - that would then leave only 6 years for this new movement to have grown and spread to "every nation" upon the earth (the essence of Justin Martyr's complaint in his 1st Apology, written circ. 150 AD). It doesn't strike as realistic. Add to this that there have been legends preserved relating to Marcion's earlier activity in Asia Minor, where among all things, the fantastic tale of Marcion having worked as an secretary for the elder "John", a legend preserved in an ancient Latin anti-marcionite prologue to the Fourth Gospel, as well as through paintings and statues depicting an aged, long-bearded "John" firing his ghost writer "Marcion" (in some paintings, he is shown as a sneaky young lad, up to no good; in others, a man in his 40s) for having added his own heretical touches to John's Gospel! (for an examination of traces of Marcionism in the fourth gospel, Joseph Turmel's (pen-name "Henri Delafosse", an excommunicated Catholic priest) "La Quatrieme Evangile" as well as Eisler's work, "the Enigma of the Fourth Gospel") A recent study also worth mentioning which covers the question of dating in greater detail than I can here is R. Joseph Hoffmann's "Marcion: On the Restitution of Christianity (1984, Scholars Press), which presents a re-evaluation of evidence throughout Patristic testimony pertaining to Marcion's life and activity. Hoffmann proposes Marcion to have been born as early as circ 70 A.D. And the second half of your question - "...and largely died out somewhere around the fifth, only recently (in the past 100 years or so) coming back into fashion with the modern resurgence into the "new age" practices and gnosticism in general. I believe that most orthodox Christians (not just Catholics) would have a hard time accepting gnostic beliefs as genuinely "christian." From what I've gathered there were pockets of Marcionism surviving well into the 10th century; indeed it did begin slowing down by the 5th century, receding into the east. The line of demarcation between certain "Christian" and "gnostic" ideas have not been nor are not always so apparent. The Catholics appear to have learned as much from the Marcionites as the Marcionites from the Catholics. As I delve further to the subject, Marcionism appears more and more an early form of Catholicism without the Old Testament. Danny

TempleLady, have you ever attended a Mormon "Baptism for the Dead"? This was also a baptism exercised by the ancient Marcionite Church, in which a living person was baptized in place of a dead relative. I would appreciate you sharing your personal insights and experiences relating to this baptism. If you would prefer communicating through email ( dmahar@snet.net ) that would okay. My father passed away last winter, and I've become interested in these sorts of things. Thank you. Danny

I only take issue with this statement, and question the accuracy thereof. Not so in the first few centuries of Christianity. Unless some ancient prejudices prevented Roman Catholics from even recognizing that rival movements were "Christian" in any respect. But I don't see that as having always been the case. As I mentioned to you in another thread, Marcionites who converted to Catholicism did not always require re-baptism. The Marcionite Church, besides having been the most formidable rival to Roman Catholicism, possessed their own scriptures, and had an ecclesiastical structure that in many respects was almost identical to the Roman Catholic. Warnings were issued to travelers, when passing through any village and inquiring for a "House of the Lord", to specifically ask for the "Catholic" church, lest they wander into a Marcionite Church by mistake. Danny

The Mormons who have come knocking at my door have been good sports. Why last year, they even offered to help me paint my house! Though I declined at the time, I thought that was awful nice of them. I hope they come back next year when it's time to re-shingle my roof. :) Danny

In retrospect, lcm was an excellent choice. Thank goodness vp did at least one thing right in picking lcm. How many among us might still have been with that stupid organisation today if he hadn't? Sitting through "PFAL" for about the 5,000th time, feeding upon the same sub-standard garbage we mistook for "research"...

So their taxes may be allotted to "make love, not war". Denmark sounds like a fantastic place for handicapped people to retire.

That's good "Fortean Times" material there. It will probably show up in next month's issue. Danny

1. Republicans 2. Democrats 3. Soccer Moms 4. Blue-Green Algae merchants 5. That new "Burger King" angus-beef cult ....

Outin88 - That's a very interesting reference. Danny

(lol) Nah, you screwed up bigger than that, Garth. If you confessed "Jesus is Lord" even once in your life, your soul is assured a spot on Jesus' loser train. Which means, you'll be debating "fiscal conservatives" (cough, cough) for all eternity. Ain't God great? :)

But doesn't this reflect also one of the more profound enigmas of Christianity? Its scriptures proudly proclaim it the religion of lowlifes and losers and scumbags and perverts of murderers and sluts and liars and fools of dimwits, morons and dingbats. (Hey, as Ted would croon - That's "God's Way People") Didn't God choose these to confound the Wise, the Scribe? No one would choose this human garbage in a million years - but the Supreme God did. The healthy have no need of the physician. Jesus didn't come for the pious, the righteous - He preferred the aforementioned "sinners", the filthy rejects, the weasles, and offscouring of the world. The folks He picked for disciples were a thick-headed, dark-hearted, dumb-foot lot. One disciple denied Him, another even betrayed Him. Even while He was on earth, and long after His "Resurrection" the disciples were (still) bickering in rivalry amongst themselves and their respective movements. Why the hell did Jesus pick such a bunch of losers? Yet they did spread His message, despite themselves, and despite their perversions made to His Gospel, often made for their own glory and profit. Think about it - the epistles that comprise a hefty portion of the NT are attributed to one who took particular pleasure in persecuting this new cult and (some say) murdering its members, prior to falling off his horse and bumping his head on a rock on that fateful, gravelly road to Damascus (according to the "Acts" legend). It's one of the enigmas of Christianity, Groucho. Danny

Such much sought "revelation" may indeed be "just a thought away", -of course, from getting any at all... :blink:

Soooo...I'm guessing you like this class?

Roy, There perhaps could be no better place to share my reflections on the phrase "Before the foundation of the World" (Eph.1:4). The Greek behind "foundation" might suggest (or allow for) the sense of either "creation" -or "destruction"; - a "planting", or a "casting down" (just to list a few things). When the light hits this phrase one way, it can mean "the creation of the world"; when the light hits it another, "the overthrow of the world". It can signify birth or destruction. Of a world, of a universe, of an age, of an Aeon, of a god or God. It's a remarkable phrase. Perhaps it was intended to be read and understood many ways, to mystify, and provoke the imagination, rather than settling upon one mundane, static meaning. The entire life of the world, from beginning to end, passes before our eyes. Danny

Greek, If he bothers you that much, just add his name to the 'Ignore" setting in your "Controls". Danny

"works" of the Old Testament Law, or "commandments" (cf. 2.15); practices such as "circumcision" (v.11); ordinances relative to the temple in Jerusalem, which lay in ruins at the time. Indeed, Paul didn't write "Ephesians", but I have little doubt who actually did. :) Danny

I've wondered these past few years...if the Infinite God had a back-up "hard-drive" for each time this universe crashed. And...would we notice this while he "re-booted" us? Perhaps we've died many times in this life and had not known it. Maybe even in some parallel system somewhere, - an old "hard-drive" -there was a magnetic shift in the poles which wiped out our memories...leaving our old counterparts drooling and wandering about that world aimlessly. Danny

There's a handy site I came across last night, that provides an online scriptural index linked to the early patristic writings (in English): Compiled Alllusions to the New Testament in Ante-Nicene Fathers It's not exhaustive, but it's nonetheless a great tool. References to 2 Corinthians ch.12 can be reviewed here. I was curious to see what other interpretations had been kicked around by the early writers, but so far, the "Bob Dole" take appears quite common among orthodox and heretical movements alike, for whatever reason. WW - That's an interesting thought, considering the struggles and even rivalries among the early Christian movements to define and establish themselves, their doctrines, their canons. I would imagine people continually coming forth with new "prophecies" and "revelations" would have certainly posed challenges and even obstacles to the process (perhaps a hint of that in 1 Cor.14 - even ch.13). But then again - we can't dismiss the possibility that the early writers - writing only about 1-2 centuries after Christ - may have also been privy to information and interpretations passed down to them (perhaps even through living witnesses, or descendants thereof), through sources no longer available to us some 20 centuries later. Danny

You know...this 'n that. And that other thing. And everything else along with it. :) :blink: :D {{{Hi Excy!}}}

I considered the possibility a few years ago that "the one" Paul "knew" may indeed have been a reference to someone else. I've heard "John" proposed. Then, perhaps under influence of the Bullinger method of exegesis, I had wondered if Paul was even referring to two different people - "such a one" caught up to the "third heaven", and another - "such a one" -caught away to "Paradise". But then, the interpretation that Paul was speaking in a manner like Bob Dole is not unique to Wierwille, and can be traced back quite a ways. Offhand, the 4th century Armenian writer Eznik de Kolb, in his work "Against the Sects"; even earlier, Tertullian, Prescript. Haer XXIV, e.g., "Now although Paul was carried away to the third heaven, and was caught up to Paradise..." (cf. also "The Apocalypse of Paul" from the Nag Hammadi Library) Anyways, a very fascinating section, open to many interpretations. Danny

(gasp!) there he is...

Peter, I'm experiencing a technological difficulty in accessing your article. I'm was looking so forward to being "radiant" this evening. :unsure:

One would think people reading writings attributed to the figure of "Paul", after 25, 30, and 40 some odd years, would actually know the "voice" of their subject by now, well enough to be able to intuitively recognize and distinguish it from a number of other "voices" occurring in the same texts. It's not all that difficult if assuming that a human being (or two or three) - having unique characteristics of style and personality -even claiming to be "god-inspired" at that- are behind the words one reads on a page. "Talent" has little to do with it. The Monkees may sound like the Beatles, but that doesn't make them the Beatles. I don't need that much "talent" to tell them apart. Nor for "Paul" and his imitators. Danny

Jeannette, (a beautiful name, btw) It's horrible what this person did to you - I got angry just reading about it! Some thoughts that might be of some help - who here would trade shoes with the twisted person who burned you? It must suck to be him. What a dark place that person's soul and mind must inhabit, seemingly void of anything remotely resembling a conscience. Whatever one sows, one will reap. This guy has apparently reaped some pretty rotten fruit. Which strongly indicates IMO (despite the "christian" costume he wore and the act he put on) that he still belongs to his old merciless gods, and will remain subject to them for quite some time to come. I wouldn't trade places with this guy in a million years. Yeah, he needs prayers alright (lol). And I'll bet you're not the only one he's maliciously wronged. Your prayers may be the only thing that will save him at the cosmic end of things. However that all works out. Danny

I've always been fascinated by the greek word behind "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..." in 1 Corinthians 15:52; the word for "moment" being atomos, which immediately provokes the image in my mind of a school classroom "atom" model (lol). The usual Greek dictionary meaning is "uncut, indivisible," but I still prefer the mental image of that atom model. :)