TheInvisibleDan

I recall hearing about the charismatic ministry of Father DiOrio back in the early 80s. Even listened to one of his tapes at the time. He's still going strong, from what I hear.

In the end, does one really expect that when one stands before the throne, God will question us on points concerning our personal/religious/corporate points of oft-theoretical, theological doctrines? "I'll take "Trinity" for $400, Alex!" As I understand, we will ultimately be judged on the basis of our actual deeds, not our ideas. Will He separate Trinitarins and Unitarians as sheep and goats? Absurd. If one is actually abiding by the words of Jesus - treating others as He would have us treat them - what does it matter if a person thinks Jesus is God, Man, Spirit, Gumby, Platypus, or a combination of them all. Danny

I personally knew of two people, neither upon which the deprogramming worked. One with whom I was a "spiritual partner" in the Corp. What a brutal experience he went through.

What an intensely weird experience the "Deprogramming" must have been. As bad as the Way was, I still can't see the justification for such barbaric actions. I've always been under the impression that there were very few deprogramming successes among Way people. Danny

Yeah, it sure does (lol). Or as said in Lexx, damn these type-13 planets. Danny

I'm imagined this scene accompanied by the melancholy "Concerto for Violin, Theremin and [Howling] Werewolf". This story is screaming for a Hollywood treatment...or a USA movie, at least. It's too bad the director Ed Wood is no longer with us.

It's "Mister Hanky, the Christmas Poo!" Maybe he fears charges of plagiarism as well.

Like, we're unfrozen sperm-like beings swimming in the vast ocean of God's womb, pollywoggin' along, seeking a giant egg planet or entity into which to burrow our heads. Just swimmin' 'n waggin' along, pressing forth toward that egg which is set before us.

"The WOrd, the Word and nothing but the Word" = Biblatry - or "Bible worship". Not a very healthy or smart position to be in, IMHO. It is a small jump from there to worship someone's interpretations along with the book, -which we shouldn't have been taught to worship to begin with. Viewing the NT as an infallible superbook renders it a "letter that killeth" that contradicts the Spirit of freedom.

I'm surprised no one has brought up the Aramaic word for "saved" as it is used throughout places in the Syriac Pe-shi-tta, -Hayya, - which is equivalent to "life" (of receiving it, or being given it, or being promised such). Although I don't see where such would necessarily or exclusively denote the idea of being "made whole". But I think it interesting that the word regarded most appropriate by the translators from the Greek to the Syriac, in place of sozo -was the Aramaic for "life". I would also add that "life" (Hayya) used in the Syriac versions in place of "saved" or "salvation" most likely carried an eschatological significance, along the lines of "life in the age to come", with the expectation of becoming like the angels in heaven. Danny

Maybe a change of decor and theme would spice things up. Go totally goth. Call it the "Cone of Hell" or something. That'll draw in the crowds. :lol:

Class action suits appear to be great business for the lawyers at least. By the time they were through, we might each end up a dime or even a quarter.

Allen, don't be so foolish - If the Roman Catholic Church is so "weak" and "ludicrously wrong" - why has she lasted all these centuries? I'm hard pressed to imagine even remnants of the Way International lasting to the close of this century. Even the Mormons have demonstrated a certain longetivity and resiliance than I doubt will ever be repeated as a result of Wierwille's activity. For that matter, twi has hardly lasted into this present century. It's reached its peak, burned out early, and shows no signs of ever rising to it's former glory. It seems to me that you may have more to learn and gain from the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormon Church than they from you. Danny

I'de also like to add my further thoughts to the previous post, that I don't exempt myself from the mass of "loser" and "lowlife" humanity (lol), of which condition one seems to simply enter by virtue of being born a member of the human race, according to many Christian theologies. Hell, if I had been born during the first century, I'de have probably been left outside the hut for the wolves to devour, by reason of my physical abnormality, oft viewed as a bad omen during that savage era. Danny

Excy - what I failed to mention was the "rest of the story" or illustration...when people were given a second chance in becoming Christians they were expected to become better people, to "put off" the old man with all his works of the flesh and put on the new man, created in the image of Christ, that they might imitate Christ. It was not expected that people continue using their lives and limbs as the "instruments of sin". But to treat one another as Jesus would have us treat one another, with genuine love and compassion. We might consider in this light John ch.8, where with the woman caught in adultery, Jesus forgives the woman of her sins and tells her to "go, and sin no more". Wierwille and his so-called "leadership" obviously got everything backwards; for all their lip service about "renewing" their minds, their cruel actions demonstrated a move in the opposite direction; they evidently had forgotten the fact that Paul had been a murderer before his conversion - not afterwards. Had Wierwille lived in the first couple centuries and conducted himself within a church in the inexcusable manner as he had done so in the 20th, they would purged out this filthy fornicator, and might have even delivered him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor.5). It's kind of ironic to consider that Wierwille would not have lasted two minutes in a church he claimed to recreate. :blink: Danny

Was this something you also heard recounted directly by Robin herself? It's a cool story. Danny

Gosh, these sayings are neat. What a tremendous thread. Lots of hot Bible. You guys are wonderful. See you soon or in the air.

Does the "Gorton Fisherman" appear also in this year's poster?

I just received through the spontaneous deity within this prophecy: "My children I the Lord your God am with you always. I will never ever leave you because wherever you go there I am, forever 'n ever 'n ever...'cause I am...um.....uh......eternal..and everywhere... ...'n stuff..." 80s Flashback: "Whack!!! - "you were thinking too much during that second part..." or, "you should have thought to stop speaking after "forever". ...Now do it again..." (nooooooo!!!!) Oh God, how I despised the "practice sessions" of those intermediate classes. Here's a possible "revelation" (or has someone done this already?) - Print out our spontaneous prophecies upon little slips of paper and insert them into tasteless, hollow cookies. Might want to get Pat Robertson on the phone for this one. Sounds like something he could sell along with his wife's milkshakes.... Danny

Jet - 1 Cor.15: 29 "Else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptised for the dead?" It is a very peculiar passage, -yet there it is. It can be interpreted various ways. I never really gave much thought to this strange artifact over the years until recently. Paul attests (though very briefly) to the existence of such a practice. I'm curious - how have you or anyone else here interpreted or understood this passage over the years? Or have you - like myself - never really given this verse much thought? Has anyone here ever found themselves praying for dead family, friends and acquaintances? I know I have, long before I considered this baptism for the dead stuff. I'm going about my everyday business, and the memory of a deceased person happens to come to mind. And I sometimes -seemingly naturally -react by praying for their eternal state and well-being. Why not? But what misery it can be for those uncertain of the ultimate destination of their loved ones' souls. Can anything more be done? Might we even be able to intervene on their behalf in some way? Make a plea to God for them? Will God listen to our prayers? Or do we resign ourselves to the notion that when you're dead, you're dead, that's it, plant-em-in-the-ground, and let God or Jesus pick 'em up next Tuesday on the dispensational calendar. No, I can sense the potential of this practice to be benefical to both the living and the dead. An expression of Christian love, to be able to speak - or plea - on behalf of those who may no longer be able to speak for themselves. That's my personal understanding thus far, approaching it from outside the LDS position. Danny

I think you might benefit most from E.C. Blackman's treatment of the subject - "Marcion and His Influence". He writes from an orthodox position, and does a fine job summarizing the various theories that had been proposed up to that point (1948). It's a good introduction along with Harnack's work. "Inter-library loan" is the only way to go on these volumes, unless one wants to shell our $300 for a 1985 out-of-print English translation of Harnack, or just about any other out-of-print volume on the topic. I'm glad I picked up my volumes during the early 90s (lol). It's not unreasonable to imagine so. Yet intriguingly so, when the Catholic and Marcionite churches were competing side by side, they shared a great many things in their practices. The sacrements of baptism(s) and communion; an effective church structure comprised of a succession of bishops, deacons, presbyters, etc.; an ambitious missionary program; celebacy; astheticism; the honor of a great many martyrs sacrificed for the sake of the Gospel. There were certainly differences, but to an outsider such may not have been immediately apparent. Only to cite some examples, the Marcionites permitted women to hold church offices and to baptize. Used water in place of wine in the communion sacrement. Allowed pagans to attend the administering of the sacrements; etc. One of the greatest challenges of any attempt to understand Marcion is trying to imagine how he interpreted much OT material which did indeed stand in his NT canon (despite the common accusations that he had entirely omitted such kind of material), in view of his theology. If Marcion blotted out anything and everything remotely Jewish or Hebraic from his Bible, he did an extremely very sloppy job, because there is much remaining in his texts which may be deemed counter to his position - as such indeed was the charge from his opponents' standpoint, which they wasted no space to capitalize upon. A basic question must be posed and explored: how did the Marcionites themselves interpret - or view - the presence and function of OT material in their own canon? I've come to the preliminary (and at the moment, experimental) conclusion - they interpreted OT citations and allusions in their text along the lines of serving an antithetical, contrastive function, -namely, of "the Old versus the New" -whereas the proto-orthodox movements construed these same passages in the sense of the "fulfilment" of what was written. Just a couple examples from 1st Corinthians (these are from an interpretive reconstruction of Marcion's version of Paul still in progress): Antithesis 2:9 But, as it has been said: The things which eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and upon the heart of man have not come up, —whatsoever things this deity hath prepared for them that love him,— 10 But to us, in fact, hath the Supreme God revealed through His Spirit; for the Spirit enlightens into all things, yea! Even into the depths of the Highest God. Antithesis 6:16 ...know ye not that, he that joins himself to the harlot, becomes one body? For it has been said that the two shall become one flesh; 17 But (I say), he that joins himself to the Lord is one Spirit! Antithesis 8 For [the World-Creator did not create] man from the woman, but woman from the man; 9 For also man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man... 11 But with the Good Lord, neither is woman derived from man, nor man derived from woman! 12 For (with the World-Creator) the woman is of the man, and the man is of the woman;—but all are One in the Supreme God! Antithesis 15:45 Thus also, [the Creator had] written— The first man, Adam, became a living soul; But the New One, the Lord from heaven, a life-imparting Spirit! And just for a brain teaser I must include this: Orthodox perspective: Many will come in my name. Some will come even saying "I am the Christ". Marcionite perspective: Many will come in my name. Some will come even saying that I am "the Christ"! Reconstructing the mind and viewpoint of ancient readers can be just as great a challenge -if not more so -as reconstructing their texts (lol). I enjoyed your post Mark. Thank you. Danny

Yes, the unit which sputtered forth that spinning-Lesley-speaker soap opera sound.

Was Rhoda the one who played the organ? :huh:

"Yikes" :blink:

TempleLady, Thank you for most generously providing this fascinating link, which I have bookmarked and will be visiting. I have personally encountered a number of publications and Christian studies over the years outside of LDS literature which also promote the idea of Jesus' love and salvation ultimately extending to the entire universe. For example, A.E.Knoch, "All in All"; Adlai Loudy "God's Eonian Purpose"; Andrew Jukes, "The Restitution of All Things"; these ideas I have always cherished as little, encouraging islands of hope amidst the roaring seas of wrath and damnation; I am very glad to hear LDS promoting similar beliefs. Danny