TheInvisibleDan

Mark, On the canonical "Luke" not being a direct witness is a good point. However, there may have been another variant tradition concerning the origin of material underlying "Luke" about which we unfortunately know very little outside of a tantalizing little bit mentioned in "the Dialogue of Adamantius" by Pseudo-Origen; in Book I of the "Dialogue", Megethius (Meg.) represents the Marcionite position while "Adamantius" (Ad.) the Catholic: Chapter VIII Meg. I shall show that there is one gospel. Ad. From whom can you appeal from scripture itself that confirms there is only one Gospel? Meg. Christ. Ad. Did Christ himself write of his crucifixion and resurrection from the dead after three days? Meg. The Apostle Paul imparted [or, added ] this. Ad. Do you mean to say that Paul was in attendance at the crucifixion of Christ? Meg. He himself wrote the Gospel. We know from the Patristic accounts (e.g., Tertullian, Epiphanius and Adamantius) that the Marcionites did not include "Acts" in their canon, either having rejected it or not having known it at the time they compiled their canon, which raises the possibility that the Marcionites did not hold to the same biographical sketch of Paul's activity (or even identity) as found in the Catholic tradition's "Acts". But what the precise details of their tradition were here, we unfortunately possess little. My preliminary speculation is that Paul may have been regarded among "the seventy" disciples chosen by Jesus which we read about in Luke ch.10, but I admittedly have little to base this on at the moment. "Luke the Physician" as a travelling companion to Paul was apparently also not in the Marcionite tradition (as seemingly suggested by the omission of "physician" associated with a "Luke" in Col.4 in the Marcionite version). Danny

Mark, Those photos are indeed, as Raf said, a very "good catch". I was trying to make out from those photos whether or not the crosses at the ends (one either side) actually had a figure of the crucified Jesus on them, which had become worn-down over time. But I can't really tell from these photos. For me, an apparent strong point in the Bullingerite/Wierwillian teaching that there might have been more than two "evil-doers"/"robbers" crucified with Christ was the fact that in two accounts (Matt.27:44; Mark 15:32) both those crucified with Him "reproached Him" while in Luke 23:40, the "malefactor" accepted Him. I don't entirely rule out that more than two people could have been crucified with Christ - mass crucifixions were not unknown to have taken place in those times (as in the case of Spartacus and his comrades). But now, of course, other explanations are certainly possible; for example, we might ask: might one of the "malefactors/"robbers" [btw - I agree with you here - what does prevent these as functioning as synonyms in this case?] who started out "reproaching" Jesus had had a change of heart? (such conversion experiences - especially upon the approach of death - are not unheard). Or - if one treats these as "eyewitness" accounts - might one "witness" had been closer to the action, - to have heard what the robbers were actually saying -while another further away, at a place unable to decipher everything being spoken (cf. the confusion of those who heard Jesus crying out "Eli, Eli", etc. - which was mistaken as a cry for Elijah). But of course, allowance for the varying narrative styles/theological intentions of the Gospel writers/editors themselves must also be taken into consideration. It's obvious when reading any Gospel "Harmony" that the writers were drawing from both shared source material, and some unique sources as well, and arranging everything in their literary creations as they saw fit. Interesting subject, which I haven't really revisited in awhile. Danny

Oh, I don't disagree with you about the outrageous excesses of the wing-nuts on the other side of the aisle. Which is why I usually cast my votes toward the 3rd parties. Other than that, I prefer to mix the tickets and determine each candidate on a case by case basis, rather than pull one lever (though they did away with the one lever option in my state years ago). Danny

Well the Acts account of Ananias and Sapphira is mid-second century fiction of course, just like our modern myth of the "fiscal republican" I recall Pat Robertson running in the Republican primaries, I think sometime during the 90s. In all seriousness though, considering the fact that Christian "fundamentalists", or you call them, "the scourge of the planet" , are by and large attracted in large numbers to the Republican party -with some even ending up on the tickets - why would any thinking, rational athiest like yourself want to place in political, influential power over yourself such fundamentalist "scourge" whose positions run counter in certain areas to your own? Those who have been vocal in supplanting the teachings of evolution with "intelligent design", who want to restore "prayer" into the schools, and so on? I'm not trying to pick on you, Sudo (in fact, I wish your fine practice was closer to me, because I could use some serious dental work). But I'm curious as to the dilemma you must undergo when stepping into the voting booth, if casting your votes toward that party line which encompasses those very "fundamentalists" you enschew. And if I say any more, this could end up in the "Political" forum. But then again, there's a very fine line between religion and politics. :) Danny

Sounds like Mr. Robertson practices the same habit we were taught years ago in the so-called 'Advanced Class", namely, of finding the hidden demons lurking behind today's late-breaking headlines. And to think that this guy at one time ran for president (!) - would you, Sudo, as a Republican, have wanted someone like this occupying a position of close proximity to the proverbial "big red button"? Such a one who might get the revelatory whim in the middle of the night to wipe out one godless country or another in order to help fulfill an angry god's "prophecies"? I keep seeing a dvd in the bargain bins called "Tribulation", with the all-star lineup of Gary Busey, Margot Kidder and Howie Mandell. Whoa, talk about "scary"! :blink: Danny

Mark, It sure does come across that way. (okay, my derailing done - sorry). Danny

It is striking how sloppy these Bible believers sloppily mixed material from the epistle of John with 2 Thessalonians in these creeds, considering that 2 Thess. doesn't actually employ the term "antichrist". It's certainly possible that the "antichrist" was inferred in 2 Thess., but nevertheless, the fact stands - the writer of 2 Thess. doesn't use (or even know?) that term (which by itself may be sound reason for critical scholars to reconsider the authenticity of material in 2 Thess., because the ommision of "antichrist" there begs the question - was 2 Thess. written at a time before the term "antichrist" entered into currency?) I have a pet theory that "antichrist" may have been a term coined and appropriated in opposition to the author of "Antithesis" - and originally had nothing to do with any of the Catholic Popes, though it certainly may have come from them. But it's just an entertaining theory... Danny

Well now, Themex, if the reason for your upset stomach is my link to the Marcionites, then perhaps you'll develop a new-found appreciation for their rival, the Roman Catholic Church, of whom you appear to assume the worst elsewhere when in fact, you probably share more in common, and perhaps even owe more in terms of your understanding of Christianity. (Glad to be of service, Mark) ;) Danny

WW, (lol) It's not my thread - it's Belle's. And from every indication from her initial, inspiring post, she's having a blast learning a lot of new things, and she (as well as others here) are doing quite admirably without any of my superfluous input, thank you. And I'm extremely happy for her, wherever her learning journey leads her, because all this stuff is so mindblowing and exciting. Hell, like her, I'm still learning new things! I'm eagerly awaiting a couple books I ordered online with my Christmas money, such as Herzog's "The Parables of Jesus as Subversive Language" and Price's classic "The Restored New Testament" which I'll add to my newly arrived "Gnosticism at Corinth". God I'm so f$#*@# happy. Danny

You're welcome Jardinero. Don't be put off by the "academic" ring to this stuff; some of the older works can be quite dense and intimidating to get through, but more recent works like Ehrman's are done up like Time-Life coffee-table books (with pictures and photographs and "factoid" pages and all that) and are very approachable and enjoyable to read. Best wishes to you in your quest wherever it should lead you. Danny

I get the impression that you're really not interested in such things at all. And never mind the findings of the last 50 years - the average "Way follower" acquainted with nothing but PFAL seems to lag far behind in the disciplines, methodologies and theories of serious "Biblical research" for the past 100+ years. This is painfully apparent everytime I bring up the mention of such topics as the questionable Pauline authorship behind the "Pastoral Epistles" of 1&2 Timothy and Titus, from whence material (in my own personal observation and experience with twi) many of the roots of idolatrous "Bible worship" derive. This stuff is not new. The theory was introduced as early as 1921 (if not earlier in the German schools) and has persevered to the present day. I must confess, as much as I appreciate their findings, a part of me also has an axe to grind with "egg heads" and the various churches which have apparently been derelict in their duty of educating the general public with this kind of critical information. If they had taken the time to "translate" their findings from their pompous scholarlise into the language of the common "lowlife", we might have spared a lot of religious abuse, headaches and heartaches from such outfits as twi. Danny

Rhino- Thanks for the correction, though I didn't suggest that Paul was a "hack". Hey, it's a terribly designed, hokey website about Christianity's insane grandfather; what more can I say? Though I am rather surprised UFologists, Scientologists and even Trekkies haven't emailed me more often. :) Well then, for a lusty former Wierwillite like yourself -it's not Marcion's God you seek - it's Diana of Ephesus. Look her up in the mythological phonebook. Danny

It's the ancient Syrian-Marcionite transliteration for the name "Iesus" (yod-semketh-wah), as preserved in St.Ephraem's discussions about them. It's usually spelled with a "shin" but when Ephraem spoke of the Marcionites, he switched the letter in that name to "semkath". This is discussed in further detail at my old website, http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/3827/ephintro.htm in the introduction to C.W. Mitchell's translation of Ephraem's "Prose Refutations" of Marcion. Danny

Hi Jardinaro, The epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are categorically referred by scholars as the "Pastoral Epistles", because they purport to be letters of "pastoral" instruction written by Paul to Timothy and Titus. What I have mentioned about them, of not having been authored by Paul, is nothing new. NT scholarship of the past century - the type of works which Wierwille carted off to his proverbial "gehenna" - cover this topic in regard to the language used in these writings, which are not characteristically "Pauline" in view of the undisputed "genuine" material (e.g., Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians). In addition, the unnamed opponents addressed in the "Pastorals" resemble rival Christian and Gnostic groups of the second century, and even go so far as to make playful mention of the title to a lost Marcionite work, "Antithesis" ("contradictions," 1 Tim.6:20). The writer(s) of these pastoral epistles constructed those works, for one main purpose, of putting words in Paul's mouth to battle their Christian and Gnostic rival churches, and to promote their theology and canon over their competition. If you're interested in exploring more about this subject of the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus), the following is a very brief list of old and new works on the topic which you may acquire through your library or online bookstores (i.e., Amazon) - "The Problem of the Pastoral Epistles" by P.N. Harrison (1921) "An Introduction to the New Testament" by Edgar J. Goodspeed (pp.327ff, 1937 University of Chicago Press) "Christian Beginnings" by Morton Scott Enslin (pp.299 ff., 1938 Harper & Bros. Publishers) "Introduction to the New Testament" by Feine Behm Kummel (pp.258ff, 1966 Abingdon Press) "The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings" by Bart D. Ehrman (pp.341ff, 2000 Oxford University Press) The last work listed by Bart Ehrman is newer, very accessible and non-technical to the general reader. I'm sure there are a multitude of other works that also cover this topic. On gnosticism, there is the "gnosis archive" online which contains tons of material on the topic - http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/ My (newer) website on the topic of Marcion is located at http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/ Danny

JK - I think the "Biblical" was just as much reason for twi's stupidity and brutish antics as anything "non-biblical" being expounded here by yourself; I admittedly have devoted more observation to that side of the picture. The belief that the Bible is infallible, indisputable "God-breathed" word - as expounded by the anti-marcionite, pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" which every serious NT scholar and his uncle for the past century and a half have recognized to be a late, mid-second century production forged almost a hundred years after Paul's head was lopped off at Rome - had just as much influence in shaping twi's warped beliefs as anything coming from the non-biblical sources you cited here. happy new year. Danny

Geo, So do I; I was never impressed with those other brown-nose "stewards" (lol); let us raise our glass to the "unjust servant" who had to the guts to tell his "lord" to his face what a hard-assed jerk he was - we could have used more folks like that in the Way international. And in heaven or hell, if need be. Danny

After all is said and done concerning my studies in christianity, I find the only thing which convinces me personally that a man named Jesus (or Isu) actually existed and lived 2,000 years ago - is ultimately not the elaborate theologies and rituals built up about Him over the centuries by ancients or moderns, be they orthodox or heretics: it's quite simply the parables attributed to Him. Even in the overbloated forms in which they survived and have come down to us, preserve a mindblowing potency still quite capable of sturring up and challenging the status quo of cultural, societal and personal expectations. Isu's parables are not merely cute, harmless, slightly entertaining childrens' tales - they are snapshots of life from the first century, but within the context of their time, given by Isu a screw-with-your-head, Hitchcockian twist ending. Quite frankly, they f%@& with your mind. Isu was crucified as much by reason these subversive comic strips - if not more - as He may have been for anything else that He said or did. Take for example the parable of the stewards and the talents in Luke 19. Which I've oft taken as an illustration for the moral of "use-it-or-lose-it", through the actions of the last servant who buried his allotment in the ground, rather than investing it like the others, to bring further gain for their master. The "lord" or master oft being taken as representative of Isu Himself. But that may not be what the storyteller originally intended at all. I recently became acquainted with the idea that the servant who buried his money in the ground - rather than being the brunt of the moral, that he was a fool who didn't invest his money wisely for his master's gain - may actually have been the "hero" of the story. He refused to go along his master's explotive, monetary schemes. He exposed his master as an "hard man" who "reaped where he did not sow". Jaochim Jeremias notes the character of this "lord" - a "cruel, oriental despot", who took partuclar pleasure in having his enemies brought before him to be slain. It's funny, but I've wondered how many others besides myself who've read this parable from time to time had actually identified - indeed, even sympathized - if only subconsciously - with the man who buried his money for fear of his "lord", over the more successful others who multiplied it to stroke their lord's ego. Isu was a mighty revolutionary who empowered the spirit of his peasant audience through the words He uttered into their ears. Do His words still carry the same power? Perhaps. This upcoming year I look forward to studying and appreciating Isu's parables more. Happy new year. Danny

Can I still have my brain cryogenically preserved and go with the lucid dream option? Or is this present life already merely a dream (or a nightmare), from which we will eventually awaken? :) I agree with SG along the lines of shedding the old beliefs to make room for new possibilities and new mysteries. It keeps our hearts young within these bodies which are passing away. And I agree with Mark that there's nothing to lose in believing in a higher being - even if we should lack all evidence for such in this world. If one's "faith" is the size of a tiny mustard seed, so be it. It should suffice for this life. And I agree with geo, too - "this life" may indeed turn out to be all that we have to be decent to one another. My best wishes to you, JJ, in your new contemplations, wherever they should lead you. Being honest with oneself is never a bad thing, IMO. Danny

Thin Lizzy wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was David and those with him who broke and ate "the shewbread" (Luke 6:3f). But yes indeed, Jesus Christ was a fearless rule-breaker, and went further than David, and stepped on quite a few toes of the temple "priests" to whom many things were deemed "unlawful". I encourage you: imitate Jesus and do likewise. Why continue to place yourself under the yoke and sway of those modern day, hypocrite "priests" at twi who like their ancient counterparts, claim to know all the answers, and esteem themselves above all others, having no love or compassion? Danny

What's wrong with being "nice"? As many of us know from the downside of the Way experience - "Mean people suck". :o

For some I am the tooth fairy. But I am not the walrus.

Perhaps the bibliographies dropped off the gally proofs on the way to the barn... in all seriousness, these "books" strike me more now as overstuffed "tracts" than they do as serious works of "biblical research".

Did Wierwille actually intend these things as 'real books'? Is that why he skipped putting in all the real "serious" stuff? Or was he just being plain cheap? I bring this up because when I took the class in '78, I received the softcover versions of everything (blue book, orange book, green book, brownish book, white book, the thicker orange book). Just about every single one of those damn things fell apart. And NOT from over-reading. The covers fell off. The pages fell out. The books split asunder down the middle, and even into 3-4 parts. "Real", high-quality books don't usually do this. Nor do they misspell "chapter thirteeen" for a section concerned with the number of criminals actually crucified with Jesus. Talk about "lack of detail". How did they bind these things at "American Christian Press"? Did Emogene mix flour and water while Rhoda slapped them together? Talk about "cheap"! Something ain't right there. It wouldn't surprise me if these things originally did include bibliographies, - they just fell out out! (lol) Danny

Whoa! Slow down here, guys. Seems to me we're all coming across a bit on the pompous side here. Perhaps I'm incorrect in this, but it seems "turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemy" and "good will toward all humankind" has gotten lost in the commotion here. May I suggest that we try to be a bit more civil toward one another, regardless of our differences of beliefs or opinions ( or despite our perception that a poster may have been less than gracious in their response or attitude toward us)? I'm far from having been consistent in this myself as of recent ( guilty as charged). But I sincerely believe we can all do much better. Again, it can be a rather stressful time of year. thank you. Danny

This can also be the most, mind-boggling stressful time of year (lol). My best wishes to all here for a happy and safe holiday. Danny