TheInvisibleDan

Goey, These references were immensely fascinating - you raise a very interesting point, namely, concerning what was believed among Greek and Romans concerning the state of death. It seems I recall (I need to look this up later on, but I think I encountered this in a work by Paton as well as works dealing with mythology) that the Greeks held the view that when one died, one's "shade" (or ghost) continued in a weakened state in the underworld of Hades. Indeed it was not a very hopeful depiction of life after death. However, I tend to think of the Romans as having been a bit more diverse in its views of afterlife than what was expressed among the writers you cited. I get the impression that the empire had become proliferated with a number of cults and movements introducing their exotic religious and spiritual ideas, such as Mithriasim, one of Christianity's main contenders at the time, which enjoyed considerable spread through the mobile Roman garrisons. The views of Christianity was one among many which immigrated into the empire. I wonder too, what form Egyptian beliefs concerning "resurrection" might have taken at the time (and to another degree, Zoroastrianism, which did much to affect views of resurrection in Judaism). In any event, the question of what was believed throughout the empire about death/aferlife is a very fascinating topic, and perhaps even deserving of a thread of its own for exploring further. Danny

Belle, Thank you so much for your kind words. Your posts are always a pleasure because you're always exploring, and I admire that. And I have been enjoying everyones' input here as well. In view of Belle's mention of my Marcionite studies, I don't want to derail this thread with other thoughts that I have on this section. This past winter, I drafted a "Marcionite commentary" on 1 Thessalonians, an attempt on how a Marcionite might have interpreted this material in view of their belief in "two Christs" or "two messiahs", one being the unforetold "messiah" of a new God, to bring universal salvation to mankind, while the other being the "messiah" prophesied through the Old Testament demiurge, to bring wrath. It is my initial proposal that 1 Thess. ch.4 refers to the coming of the "Christ" of the new Benevolent God, who comes to rescue people "from the wrath to come", whereas the material in ch.5 may refer to the coming of the OT deity's "Christ", who comes to administer "wrath". In any event, it's a very wordy and dry study, but it contains a number of references to the observations of dispensationalists (some which will be familiar to readers here), who most interestingly, have arrived to positions not far removed from Marcion's. And all the more extraordinary, without knowing(or mentioning) the figure of Marcion at all. http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/1Thess2lords.htm Though it doesn't specifically cover the topic of "sleep", Clay, I do think there may also be something to your interpretation, as it is something which I had also briefly considered awhile back. Considering the "gnostic" interpretation of "sleep"(as in ref. to Hans Jonas' work earlier)scripture can present the possibility of double-meanings. But back then- as does today - it all depends on the eyes and hearts of the various beholders. Danny

Thanks Clay. You're a good man. Danny

Clay, Please bear in mind that this is a way/ex-way/half-way forum. The majority of folks are familiar with the way's teaching on the topic, many points of which are hardly unique to the way. So it is natural that people would compare interpretations, both past and present, new and old, as they ought to feel free to do so. If you do not encourage open discussion on the matter, you will "run people off". I'm sorry to state this, but it needs to be said. Let your interpretation stand or fall on its own merits or failings. But I am becoming increasingly discouraged by the many statements made by many as of recent, to the effect, "If you don't like or agree with what I say, go somewhere else." It's not cool. I hope you re-think your approach here, and encourage open discussion, no matter how much one may disagree or not like a viewpoint one hears. Danny

(lol) "And I will send ye a new parakeet, which will repeat everything that I say..." But will this occur before or after the coming "flaming Craig of fire?" And will the new parakeet come wearing a shining white suit of polyester? Such questions we must ponder in the world of developing way myths. Danny

I just completed the electronic work to my theremin about 3 weeks ago, and haven't been able to stop playing it since then. It is a very cool, incredible instrument, and very enjoyable to play. It can be used for "effects", and/or for playing serious music. I've been practicing mostly pieces of classical melodies (William Billing's "Chester" and "When Jesus Wept", Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition", a little Beethoven..."Over the Rainbow", any melody I can recall in my head). Still developing my aerial fingering technique. But so far it's proven rather easy to play, and the sound is very unique, depending on the octave range, a synthesis between a violin, a cello, and perhaps certain wind instruments. If you're thinking of trying one these things out, don't bother with the "pitch" antenna only models (like the one linked to Ebay)- go with one with both a "pitch" and "volume" antenna, such as the Moog Etherwave (in the $350 price range). Or if you're brave, and want to save a couple bucks, and don't mind a bit of do-it-yourself work, the Paia "Theremax" kit is an excellent bargain (approx. $130, if you build your own case). Danny

So essentially in your view, VP was "The truth", "the truth" died, and now there is no more "truth"? :blink:

Yes, I think I gather what you're saying here...I oft think some scholars get so caught in their various, impressive methodologies as to miss the actual substance of what they may have initially sought. If these methods are put in service to the heart, wonderful. If not, their efforts may amount toward masturbating other collegues' minds, and tragically serving little else. There's a man who works at a local convenience store here, who's about to move to Hawaii to become a schoolteacher. And one thing he has stated to me a couple of times has stuck with me: if one wants to understand history and how people thought back then, consider how people think today. Danny

I think Goey's statement here bears worth repeating. The fact of the matter is, I see merits in both sides of the discussion - as well as weaknesses. This forum can be an invaluable venue to "test" out ideas. When I propose a theory in these forums, I damn well would like to be aware any proposals concerning its perceived weaknesses. Such enables me to go back to the "drawing board", explore and further adjust or revise a theory, or perhaps even (as in some cases) ditch it altogether if need be. My main objective for participating in these forums is not toward "agreement". Very few people have agreed with any or all of my views concerning my research in the subject of Marcion - and quite honestly, it really doesn't bother me. Nor do I think less of those who disagree. Nor do I think they're any less acute or spiritual than I. I didn't reach my own personal views overnight - which are admittedly hard to swallow. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that others should be so quick to agree with anything I propose. There is much that can be gained from disagreements. In fact, even much more. The fact of the matter is, "sleep" in 1 Thess. may indeed indicate "physical" death. Or it may mean "spiritual" death. Or possibly a bit of both. Or if we were to explore further, perhaps we might even discover - "neither of the above". As I stated earlier, metaphorical interpretation may be just as fraught with difficulties as ultra-literal meanings. As scholars, - explorers - and human beings - we should remain open to all the possibilities. But most importantly - we should endeavor to discuss these ideas openly, with respect toward one another, without flying off the handle, and taking doctrinal disagreements so damn personally. As for my own personal opinion as to the interpretation of this section in 1 Thess. - the "jury is still out" with me. There's still many things about this section that I'm still considering, and/or that I still don't know. I still lean toward the "rapture" theory as has been taught in the past, by virtue of its "gnostic" character of "alienation" to "the world", through those expressions of desiring to depart from "this world" and to be in another. How did Bible believing Christians reach such a distinctive "gnostic' positions without betraying awareness of the subject of gnosticism. Unless, perchance, these scriptures are betraying gnostic elements that are already present within. I am personally gravitating toward the position that none of the Pauline literature that has come down to us predates the second century. But that's my opinion, and I don't expect others would agree, - and of course, I could be wrong -but I would be glad to share some thoughts on this if anyone is interested (another thread perhaps). I hope everyone chills out, loosens up, and takes a moment to check out that link to that trippy "rapture" comic I posted earlier. I predict bell-bottoms will come back into fashion. Danny

Ah, Warrior Princess -(lol) I would go see such a flick, if George Romero directed it. That reminds me of a "Rapture" poster I saw advertised in an old, Baptist "Sword of the Lord" catalogue years ago, showing a city landscape with a big cartoon Jesus in the sky, with planes falling out of the air and huge 1960s-era guzzler-mobiles veering off the highway, and a cemetary, with Caspar-like Christian ghosts rising out of the graves upward toward the sky. What an awesome poster. Wish I had bought it at the time to add to my tacky Robert Tilton game board. :) Omigosh, speaking of which, this site posts a 1970s comic book on "The Rapture" which is absolutely hilarious: http://www.evilhippy.net/2003_12_01_evilhippy_archive.html Enjoy! Danny

I would like to add some thoughts to what Goey just said; it's been my observation from studying Christian history that the method of allegorization or spiritualization as applied to interpretation of scripture has been (and in cases, can be) no less problematic than those issues raised by literalism. One example that comes to mind is the "replacement theologies" subscribed in one form or another since the first three centuries of Christianity, namely, the line of doctrines which the church adopted toward appropriating ("stealing" would not too harsh a word) the religious heritage of the Jews and making it their own. The Church was more or less viewed as having replaced Israel, and the promises of Israel transferred to the Church. The primary weapon used to accomplish this was allegory. As a result, the suffering and persecution that the Jews underwent throughout the centuries - which were then regarded by the Church as "Christ-rejectors" and "Christ-killers" - is staggering, and almost unimaginable. The notion taught among Christians today - that the dispersed Jews "according to the flesh" - as a nation - would once again inhabit Jerusalem following its destructions in 70AD and (approx.) 135 AD - is virtually unheard of in the second century patristic literature! The idea of the dispersed Jews having a nation in Palestine - considered almost commonplace among literalist Christians today - appears to be a much newer innovation than we've taken for granted. (I'm still looking for references among the ante-Nicene Fathers, so if anyone knows of any that I've missed, please fill me in, and correct me if I am wrong here) As far as I can tell so far, there was only one man who voiced his opinion that the dispersed Jews would once again return to Jerusalem and become a nation. Only one man foresaw the re-emergence and restoration of Israel to the Jews (which finally happened in 1947) - the 2nd century "literalist" Marcion. Listen to Tertullian as he mocks Marcion for his belief that the dispersed Jews would once again inhabit Jerusalem (Adversus Marcionem Bk.III.23, 24): To which this modern neo-Marcionite responds to sleeping Tertullian's last comment many centuries later: DONE. Danny

Well, um, in the example I just gave, there wasn't originally any division of chapters or "chapter headings" in the ancient manuscripts of 1 Thess. ( such have "no authority" remember that part of "the class"?) The material in "chapter 5" of 1 Thess. can hardly be regarded as "remote" from the material that it follows in "chapter 4". Danny

I know all about throwing real stones. When I was much younger, hanging around with other kids in the middle of the summer, bored with nothing better to do, one of our favorite past-times was throwing rocks at hornets' nests - and running! Boy that was fun. I never got stung, but some of my friends did. But one day, while we were waging battle with the hornets, just as I turned, one of my friend's wayward rocks hit me straight in the eye, shattering the lenses in my glasses. Wow, that hurt. Fortunately I didn't lose an eye, or end up with glass shards in my eyeball. That would have reallly hurt. Danny

I was also initially apprehensive to the possibility, but in the context, 1 Thess. 5 might be considered in view of Clay's proposal: Of course, we may be seeing a mixed application of metaphors here. But it's all very interesting. We mustn't overlook the fact also that one primary point of controversy among early Christian movements was the interpretation of a physical resurrection vs. a spiritual resurrection. In view of that, it's a question in my mind as to whether or not we in fact have before us in 1 Thess.4/ 1 Cor.15 a faithful representation of these passages in their earliest (or alternate, if you will) form. Danny

Clay, These passages in I Thess. 4 certainly offer an array of interpretive challenges. Any fresh food for thought such as you have offered here are certainly good to consider. I'm also glad that you posted. May those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those not physically dead? To a great degree, many Christians do already believe this, if those who have shed their mortal coils are thought to already be in heaven with Christ. On the other hand, - if referring to Christians still "physically" alive - I'm trying to grasp the distinction between those "sleeping in Christ" and "those of us which are alive and remain" within the context of your proposal. Might those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those who became Christians, and never went any further with that spark of new life within? Given the metaphorical meaning ascribed to "sleep", "slumber", "drunkedness" and the like in both Christian and Gnostic thought, I suppose it's possible. Hans Jonas, in "The Gnostic Religion", gives attention to the gnostic motif of 'Numbness, Sleep, Intoxication" (p.68): "While earthly existence is on the one hand...characterized by the feelings of forelorness, dread, nostalgia, it is on the other hand described also as "numbness," "sleep," "drunkedness," and "oblivion": that is to say, it has assumed...all the characteritics which a former time ascribed to the state of the dead in the underworld. Indeed, we shall find in gnostic thought the world takes the place of the traditional underworld and is itself the realm of the dead, that is, of those who have to be raised to life again." Jonas also quotes from "The Hymn of the Pearl" contained in the "Acts of Thomas" (which can probably be located online somewhere): "They mixed me drink with their cunning and gave me to taste of their meat. I forgot that I was the King's son, and served their king. I forgot the Pearl for which my parents had sent me. Through the heaviness of their nourishment I sank into deep slumber." The entire "Hymn of the Pearl" is breathtakingly beautiful. Interesting thoughts, Clay. Danny

Roy, You really are an extraordinary person, always sharing such great love and patience. Couldn't imagine the 'spot without you. Danny

I have my doubts that should "The rapture" occur tonight (and if I am a part of it), I would spot LCM flying through the air toward Jesus, his rainbow cape a-flapping. But who knows. As for the "rapture" theory itself, - if not in the precise manner as has been expressed through dispensational teaching the past couple centuries - the elements have always been there in one form or another in support of something akin to such a belief, as might be gathered from the following Patristic citations: Danny

A friend had recently sent me these links to some very well done articles on the topic of Aramaic at Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus Enjoy. Danny

You whiny little pi$$-ant - and just where do you think we would be without the Jews? Without their rich, invaluable contributions in many facets of our lives, in the fields of religion(s), in the fields of science, in the fields of entertainment, in the field of food (bagels!!!) and the greatest gosh darn comedians and composers on the face on the planet? They have contributed immensely to our society, in ways which almost cannot be measured. Albert Einstein, Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, George Gershwin, Jerry Seinfeld, and my friend Charlie at the last job I worked. Life wouldn't be the same without them. They have all contributed so much toward America's distinctive identity. Danny

That's a great link, CM. I also found another hyperlink from that same article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory - the Ryan-Pittman theory of the Black Sea area having been subject to a catastrophic deluge - which I think is quite interesting. I mean, why else would the legendary "Noah's ark" had thought to have ended up on a mountain in Turkey, of all places? Danny

Well thank goodness there are works continuing to come out on the topic, if only by reason of preserving the memories and experiences of any remaining "witnesses" which are rapidly passing away daily. It is wise to record these witnesses while it's possible, because the population of that era - be they veterans, refugees, survivors, etc. - is thinning out as we speak. It's good to preserve their recollections before they are forever lost to us. In fact, my own father, a WWII veteran who fought in the "pacific theatre", passed away 2 years ago. There will soon come a time when there will be no more first-hand eyewitnesses to interview (perhaps 20-30 years from now?). Let's hope the trend continues of getting all this stuff preserved in writing, on film, or whatever other means possible, because we are literally running out of time. Soon there will only be us old hippies. Danny

It doesn't. But it was implied through "the gap theory" concerning Gen.1:1 and 1:2 (as we had accepted from the beloved prophet Wa'shua, and had given unto you). I must confess - despite the grammatical arguments flying back 'n forth on the theory, pro and con - that the whole idea of history repeating itself - over and over and over again - is actually quite an interesting idea. Have we held this same conversation before? Are we holding this same conversations millions of years from now? Has this same discussion happened a thousand times over, and will occur again another thousand times, again and again and again and again? Like that movie "Groundhog Day"? I wonder... are we frozen into a "gap" along with those fossils? Swinging from a comma between "today" and "Paradise"? Stumbled into an unforeseen chasm between "the salvation of the Lord" and "The Day of Vengeance"?

Hurray for the US Constitution (I wholeheartedly agree with you Garth, because under a theocracy, I would perhaps be slated for having my head lopped off along with yours into the same basket). I just re-read your original post, and you mentioned " the Christian church [that] took over since Constantine". I think what I was unsuccessfully attempting to raise awareness along with my question was that "the Christian Church" that took over "since Constantine" was NOT representative of ALL Christian movements in existence up to that time. The Church that won out over all the others held a more "pro-cosmic" view of creation than those Christians along the "Gnostic" vein in their anti-cosmic perspectives. Take for example, the material comprising Romans 1:19ff, which is appealed to by Christians to condemn homosexuality by reason that such is "against nature"(according to this supposed sacred text). Well that section was NOT contained in the earlier versions of Romans, as attested by our knowledge of the earlier Marcionite version. In fact, "Paul" had originally launched an attack against the original 12 apostles in this section. A later (orthodox) interpolator naturally changed this, to exonerate the apostles, and promote a doctrine more agreeable to the empire at large. One which was aimed (in particular) against the "eunuchs" of a rival Christian sect (and not homosexuals). Eunuchs oft inhabited the palaces of power and authority. They could be extremely influential in the presence of those in political power. It was absolutely imperative to lessen the status of these "eunuchs" in any way conceivable. Especially if they were "eunuchs" of a rival sect. For further information on my theory that Romans 1:19ff is a later interpolation, and the reasons behind the addition of that material, I have posted a draft of a study on the subject at http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/homophobe.htm which also includes some thoughts on the varying perspectives among ancient Christian movements toward "nature" and "the world". It is, I must emphasize, a "draft", which I had completed near the end of last year, before getting distracted by "cosmic" events (lol) occurring in my personal life, which led to the destruction of my parents' home. This is obviously material "THE EVIL CREATOR" DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW!!! (especially Garth). (lol). Danny

In retrospect, I get the impression that the Way didn't really have a clear idea of what they actually wanted to be. They spread themselves out too thin. Personally, I think the Way might have done better had they stuck only to pursuing "Biblical research", to improving and expanding their academics and offering their "teachings" to anyone and everyone who requested them (no matter how good or bad the results) -akin to simply a publishing house -but had adopted a strict "hands-off" policy pertaining to the area of social activity and co-ordination and "fellowship". or. meddling with peoples' lives and telling them what to believe and how to live. That should have been left up to the individuals comprising us, along with the choice of whether or not to accept or reject their "teaching". I mean, had they wanted to be a biblical research "corporation", fine - then they should have extended the logic of not calling themselves a "church" to "ministry", and ceased trying to "play church". They didn't want to be called a "church" yet they "played it" nonetheless. They wanted to be known as a "Biblical research" body, but ultimately they didn't even "play" that all that well. It's ridiculous, looking back on a group which constantly tossed the word "commitment" in our faces - that they had so little actual "commitment" toward defining themselves as a body. Little wonder the outfit collapsed under its own weight. Talk about a "lack of vision" (lol) - the Way now resembles a confused, blurred hallucination bobbing in a bottle of Drambuie. Danny

Xena - I like and agree with the "rez's" attitude toward the elderly as you described. The attitude toward old people in our "throwaway" popular culture in pretty damn twisted, IMO. In our culture, people seem to want to remain 25-30 forever. It's weird... Danny