TheInvisibleDan

If the "breath" breathed into Adam by the "Prince of the power of the air" is the image of that deity, then yes, in sense, Jehovah too is being "saved". It was his intention to kill Jesus but not to bring us life. He despised Him, and even feared Him,because this stranger did not turn out to be the cruel war-like "messiah" of that god's prophecies. "conceded" more likely if such was the case, with a name even above his own. "The Aeon" or his archangels would never have had Him crucified had they known. Their plans did not quite work out as they expected. Danny

Well, the two Gods is a "perspective" too Clay, albeit not a very popular one these days. Danny

Various movements of early Christianity (particularly the gnostic ones which IMO produced the earlier Pauline literature) were far from sharing the same appreciation for "nature" as has been expressed here. To the contrary, Christianity began as a "revolt" against "the world" - overthrowing such conventions as had been used to rationalize suppressions and segregations according to race, gender and social classes. Sorry gentlemen, but the "wisdom" of nature has resulted toward the most sinister ends, even down to the present day. The "wisdom of nature" has even bestowed a many genocides and sufferings, whether through wars or through tsunamis. To paraphrase Marcion: "To be sure, this world is a grand work, worthy of a god. Yet the Supreme God has a creation of His own, and His own world, and His own sky. One work is sufficient for our God: He has delivered man by His supreme and most excellent goodness, which is preferable to the creation of all the locusts. A primary and perfect goodness is shed voluntarily and freely upon strangers without any obligation of friendship, on the principle that we are bidden to love our enemies, who as such on that very account are strangers to us." That's why I, an "amputee", armed with the earlier Marcionite understanding of Christianity, can visit sites such as this - http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm - and immediately see the shortcomings in their (admittedly, very strong) arguments. But athiests tend to be just as ignorant as a many Christians in their understanding of early Christian beliefs. God visited this world only once in human history, and opened a pathway of liberation for man's soul from this world and its sick creator. Other than the salvation of our souls, initiated by the Stranger 2,000 years ago, the higher God has had nothing to do with this world. All that the Supreme God intended to accomplish - the salvation of the souls of humanity, and their liberation and transfer into a new world of the unknown God - not this one- - He accomplished through Christ 2,000 years ago. All that stuff about God's role in nature would come later, thanks to the strong Greek and Roman preoccupation with the perfection of the cosmos. All the interpolations in Paul's text of Romans - including the transparant un-pauline garbage in Romans ch.1 used to justify bigotry and hatred (initially against the eunuchs of the rival Marcionite church, and later, homosexuals) would come later. The Bible is very conflicted on its views of nature, and so naturally, believers. But to understand why, one must attempt to recognize the struggles that transpired behind its pages, among the world-lovers and the world-despisers. "To hate the world" (recall many things in "John") served a very good purpose for its time; but in certain respects, it is an attitude out of step in our current world-view, when considering issues relating to the environment. But applied in terms of the "world" of human affairs - an "overthrow' of the world and its conventions still packs a powerful punch. Danny

Hi Tom, I don't mean to suggest that everything regarding the unseen realm - including your experiences - is "imaginary". I have not personally given up on the belief of the existence of a spiritual realm, despite my own seeming lack of supernatural experiences on the level of your own and others here. Nonetheless, I do find it interesting how the unseen realm is open to interpretation (perhaps no big surprise). One person's God may be another person's demon, according to their cultural or religious perception. There were even early Christian/Gnostic movements which construed the OT deity akin to Satan, believing that Jesus introduced a new God of love which transcended the old. Over the years I've been compelled to believe that they were onto something, considering the poor outcome of a many orthodox Christian movements which hardly reflected the gentle, loving disposition of Christ. I remember well Don Bashan's "Deliver Us from Evil", and may even still have a copy somewhere in my closet archives. It's funny, but what I most distinctly recall about that book, was the author's battle with his "evil eye' television... I must confirm Oak's earlier observation concerning modern Wicca/Witchcraft, -having been married to a "witch" for the past 16 years,- as not being as "exciting or glamorous' in neither a positive or negative sense as made out to be by the media, or by any number of Christian exposes. Danny

Tom, I always enjoy reading your posts. I've never had (at least insofar as I'm aware) such supernatural encounters as you describe with beings or entities from the other realm. In fact, I almost envy people who've undergone such experiences. No apparitions ever manifesting themselves to me. Not even so much as a disembodied voice. The only exception I can recall was when I was 4-5 years old, waking up in the middle of the night, and seeing goldfish swimming about me, or ghostly figures wandering through the hallways of our small home. But after a time, those apparitions stopped altogether. No, the more I've gotten into a study of the "supernatural" (if accounting a study of the Bible as such), the less "supernatural" and the more mundane and ordinary life seemed to become. I mean not to offend you, but one statement causes me to wonder: Prior to the drugs, prior to twi -did you watch a lot of gothic/horror flicks throughout the 60s and the 70s? Perhaps that spirit did also. I think even the "Twilight Zone" may have had at least half a dozen episodes featuring the devil striking a bargain of one form or another in exchange for the soul of a person being enticed. To what degree did such "classic" cultural references, mingled with all the powerful drugs kids were feeding upon at the time, in that particular climate of experimentation - play upon the impressionable minds of kids? To what extent did these all work together to shape our very perspectives - our interpretations -our experiences - on what was regarded "evil"? What went through a Wayfer's mind at the mention of "witchcraft"? I bet - to some at least -the images from those old black & white Hammer films (like "Horror Hotel") played a more significant role in our imaginations - our impressions - our opinions of "witchcraft" - as much if not more than the Bible itself. Perhaps a many impressions and experiences with witchcraft were not unlike those which drove the early witch-burnings in New England centuries ago. The fermentation of wheat back then may have played no small effect toward creating mass paranoia, similar to LSD. How widespread would the idea of casting our demons in the 70s had gone without the release (and influence) of the movie "The Exorcist"? (Wierwille seems to have needed that movie as if to underscore his beliefs, as when he showed it at "Advanced Classes"). Or colorful the invoked repressed memories of "alien abductees" without certain scenes from 1953's "Invaders from Mars"? Or even the notion of "possession" by alien entities laying the groundwork from "Invaders from Mars", "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and any number of sci-fis from that era. Perhaps TV and film have been under-estimated as a powerful "drug" which has instilled a many deep impressions upon our fragile, youthful little minds - which has overlapped into our religious/spiritual notions as well. I don't know whether or not you met the devil; but if you run into him again, send him my way, would you? Either I will shudder with awe and wonder, at such a blatant manifestion as to convince me that indeed, there really is a spiritual realm, or - I will strike a bargain with him and make a few films of my own. :) Danny

Perhaps we will not be surprised at all after we shed these mortal gadgets. It may be like returning from a short trip, or as awakening from a dream. Then we'll do it all over again. Immortals are easily bored.

I took my son to see the new Superman movie last week. It was an okay popcorn flick, and it had some great special fx, but days later, I find that there's really nothing about the plot that has actually left a lasting impression in my mind. If anything, there were a lot of missed opportunities. For one, how about a new Superman movie with comic book villians that hadn't been done yet, like Brainiac ( or that weird inter-dimensional midget whose name escapes me at the moment)? The film-makers would have done better had they gleaned through the "Silver Age" comics for a meaningful plot. Heck, even the old 50s Superman series (the first two seasons which I'm thinking about picking up on dvd) was far more entertaining. Danny

Send your husband ahead on the trip (which after all, does concern his "roots'), while you stay behind and do the interview. Danny

VP's life as he knew it was over. He ran out of options (perhaps not unlike not a number of those whose life savings were wiped out as a result of his foolish scams) The only fate that awaited him was spending the remainder of his life on the sidelines. We can only only imagine what must have went through his mind; the regrets over the choices and decisions he made, and those actions which he should've taken but didn't, like: "Damn... I should have had the onion rings instead of the fries..." Danny

I think you nailed it, Pond. His life as he knew it was over. He ran out of options (perhaps not unlike not a number of those whose life savings were wiped out as a result of his foolish scams) The only fate that awaited him was spending the remainder of his life in prison. We can only only imagine must must have went through his mind; the regrets over the choices and decisions he made, and those actions which he should've taken but didn't, like: "Damn! I should have fled to the Netherlands when I had the chance..." Danny

Too bad it's not vinyl.

Lest I derail further, let me offer some thoughts recently on the topic. I'm almost convinced that there isn't one letter attributed to the apostle Paul that predates the second century. They were all IMO composed at the beginning of the 2nd century. The more I read them, the more they reflect - in my view - the environs of the second century rather than the first. Lets take for example 1 Cor.12:1-3: Now Wierwille taught that "speaking by the spirit of God" = speaking in tongues, but I think Pliny (circ.110 AD), from Pliny to the Emperor Trajan (Pliny, Letters 10.96-97) exhibits (in my view, at least) a far more compelling reason for why this passage is there, in relation to a certain interrogation practice employed by rulers to get Christians to disown their faith: But naturally, this isn't the only possibility. In "Gnosticism at Corinth" by Smithals, he proposes that Paul is responding to the dualism of certain gnostic movements which make a distinction and separation between "Jesus" and "Christ" - that the divine spirit of Christ was a separate entity from the human "Jesus", which Christ-spirit entered the human Jesus upon his baptism and departed from him upon death. And also - some folk couldn't deal with the idea of a humiliated, crucified man as a god-figure. (Sort of like us in the Way International, lol). Some "cursed" the man "Jesus", but accepted the "Christ" spirit. Danny

(lol). Well let me just say this, Tom, that the singing-of-tongues on my vinyl copy of Faure's "Requiem" -especially when experienced through the wondrous clarity of tube-amp sound - I'm going to find extremely edifying indeed. :) Danny

Well depending on what the convictions are - don't some these people perhaps deserve a second chance in life? Are they to be ostracized for the rest of their natural life on earth for mistakes they made, for which they already did time? (with the understandable exception, of course, of child molestors and violent criminals, which shouldn't be near kids). But what of some schmuck who got caught and tossed into prison as a teen for smoking a joint (or any number of minor offences along those lines), which may or may be reflected in that list? Danny

I was driving down the road today, on my way to the local supermarket to pick up some corn-on-the-cob for my backyard barbecue, when, upon turning onto route 66, I beheld a tag sale. Lo and behold, my super-telescopic vision zoomed upon two large, audio-looking console cabinets amidst the tag sale clutter. I was overwhelmed with the compulsion to turn around and check it out! Wow. It was an old late 50s-early 60s Magnavox tube-amp stereophonic, high-fidelity phonograph system, comprised of two large cabinets within which are mounted two, monster 15 inch woofers. Yep, I bought it, and proceeded to barely squeeze both huge cabinets into the backseat of my 98 Plymouth Neon. Total price paid for this vintage, Magnavox, high-fidelity, stereophonic tube amp with ancient phonograph? $5. The experience of dragging this thing into my garage, sweeping out the dust-bunnies, plugging it in and watching the warm orange glow of those tubes come to life? Priceless. My wife's going to freak when she walks into the garage (lol). Danny

Well tonight when I got out of work, I stopped at the 4-way intersection at the end of the industrial parkway. When the light turned green, I had no inclination to immediately step on the gas. I just sat there a couple seconds, and whoa, dude! a car sped right through the intersection from the other direction, giving no heed to the red light on their side. Revelation? word of knowledge? word of wisdom? - I wasn't thinking anything man! No, being crispy around the edges after a long day at work, my brain finally sparked, as I stepped on the gas: "Hmm, how about that. I wonder what's for dinner?" Danny

I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct? Most parents tend to be in state of high alert when it comes to watching after their very young children. I won't strain a wasp over this - but I thought such worth mentioning. Danny

Well while we're wating for Washington to dig up those titles, I can't resist mentioning how I love the "Nosferatu" flick as well. At the moment I have a cheap "Madacy" version of it, but it's a decent print which at least preserves and presents the entirety of Nosfertu's head in the iconic casket-catapult scene in the ship's deck, unlike the pricier "Image version, which chops the top of his head off in the frame border. I've yet to see the 'Kino" version... The soundtrack for the "Passion of Joan" movie composed by Richard Eichorn is awesome as well. Danny

Or perhaps those bishops really did end up in France, thinking the meeting was there. :)

I'm quite sure that the bishops from the east not getting to that meeting on time is in JCING somewhere. But I sold that book on Ebay last year. Sorry. Danny

That's one silent flick I've been meaning to view. Are you into silent movies, Tommy? Check out Criterion's release of 1927's "The Passion of Joan of Arc" if you haven't already. It contains the greatest performance of an actress ever captured on film, IMO. Danny

I too likewise also left somewhere in the neighborhood of '86-'87. Wow, about 20 years ago. The last class I suffered through was "Christian Family & Sex" (lol). Danny

Paul wasn't hesitant about doing just that - even rebuking Peter "before them all.." (Gal.2:14). Nor, unfortunately, were the Way's leaders. But in the context of those public manifestations - why didn't God make use of them beyond the trite scriptural fortune-cookie kind of stuff? If ever there was ample opportunity to address the serious state of affairs in the ministry - what better way than through those public manifestations through which to hear a message directly through or from God Himself? Danny

What I'm trying to find out - in light of Goey's acute comment earlier, to the effect that those who exercised the manifestations were seemingly "oblivious" to the sin transpiring in the organization -is if anyone was inspired to utter anything from God addressing precisely that situation, outside of the holy spirit seemingly hashing out the same old, usual scrambled retemories. I'm looking for evidence or confirmation of actual "life" there, if the holy spirit was actually "home". Danny

I return to that question I posed earlier: in all your recollections/experiences in the Way, does anyone here recall any occasion where someone got rebuked, reproved or even kicked out of the group for having produced an "interpretation" or a "prophecy" that was not well-received by the leaders? Danny