TheInvisibleDan

Sunesis, Out of interest, I wonder if you might provide a couple brief examples of VF's ideas/teachings/practices which struck you as "legalism" at the time. I never knew VF, outside of seeing him on a stage. He was like the John Saxon of twi, that 70s made-for-TV movie actor. The balding Italian guy. Though the late actor who played Fredo in "The Godfather" could have played VF in a Way movie. In any event, did his legalism appear derived from old Way doctrine, or did he come with all this stuff on his own? Danny

Paul devotes the entire chapter of Ephesians 5 (vv.21-33) to describing the "Church" as the loving relationship between a man and a woman - or as a husband and wife - which like these, leave their mother and father and become "one"; or how about "I myself bethrothed you unto one husband, a chaste virgin, to Christ..." (2 Cor. 11:2) - or any other number of references to the effect: "Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and render them members of a prostitute?...Or know ye not that he who joins himself to the harlot becomes one body? For it has been said, "The two shall become one flesh; But (I say): he who joins himself to the Lord is one Spirit!" (Rom.6:15-16). Both the Body and the Bride are intended, I think. In fact, I don't think "the Body" can make any complete sense outside "the Bride". Without the "Spirit" of "the Bride" "the Body" is dead, and without sense. Danny

You know you've attained dispensational divine status when... you leave a list of household chores for your kids to do in case you are "raptured". Funny stuff, Bliss. ;)

Here's another possibility outside of "the Giver" and "the Gift" perspective - "The Holy Spirit" may have also been construed as an Angel. Other literature around that time is quite supportive of this interpretation. Angels were oft invoked in prayer for their aid. All the better if one learned their particular name. Early Christians were not even in agreement over the the precise name and meaning of "Jesus" ("Isous, Yeshu, Joshua, Isu) or "Christ" ("Krestus") - let alone many not bothering to fret over a distinction between "God", "Father" and "Jesus" ("The Christ-God"). In fact, Jesus was Himself believed among a few to have been a heavenly being directly descended from heaven - in short, an Angel. There are many elements of angelology at play throughout 1 Corinthians chapters 12 -14 relating to the "Holy Spirit" and the 'gifts", further corroborated by phrases shared between Paul and the hymns among the Dead Sea Scrolls. E. Earle Ellis did a fine study on this years ago (NT Studies, vol.20) as did Otto Everling ("Paulinishen Angelologie und Damonologie"). And of course, angels are not absent from this section of Romans under discussion. Danny

To hit home the point what nonsense religion truly is, perhaps. By exhorting us to sputter gobbly-gook, perhaps was indeed intended to get us to think.

Tom, In presenting it this way, poses the most compelling case I've heard so far for not dismissing the possibility of "tongues" having been intended or included here. 8:22 we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing... 8:23 we ourselves also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance (or surrendering?) of our body... 8:26 similarly, the Spirit is aiding our infirmity, for what we should we praying, we are not aware, but the Spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings (Concordant translation). The key word may be "similarly" in 8:26, to distinguish the groaning of "creation" from the "groaning" of the Spirit. If voice - or "interpretation" if you will -was given to the groaning arising from creation itself, I should expect that the words emerging would not be all too pleasant. Whereas the groaning of the Spirit, when given expression, amount to words of comfort and encouragement. hmmm... Danny

The "creation" also groans - does that = speaking in tongues? No such thing as inexpressible groanings? - but many suffer - "groan" - in silence, under the weight and pain of oppression.

I'll give this shot, in its more proper "gnostic" perspective. Might this "groaning" also be akin to the "groaning" suffered by creation under the yoke of slavery (cf. 8:15) - the way of liberation from our imprisoned bodies being by way of following our spirit and not our flesh - a process which brings us from death into life. The Spirit helps us through our weakness of flesh. Weare no longer bound by the "breath" of slavery, but we have received the Spirit from the treasure-house of the highest God, whereby we invoke "Our Father, Who art in heaven" (as St. Ephraem cited this passage in his commentary on Paul's epistles - I find it interesting that Ephraem links this to "the Lord's prayer". It places Jesus at the center again). All which belong to the Creator - the "demiurge" - lament even until now. The creation became enslaved not by any choice of her own, but by reason of him who imposed this slavery upon her. Little wonder the creation exults in the "revelation of the children of God"! But that part of ourselves which still shares kinship with the creation - our fleshly bodies - is under the same "corruption" (8:21) experienced by the rest of material nature. The highest Spirit helps us through this situation, strengthens us, comforts us. Earlier in ch.7 we read about no longer using our fleshly limbs as instruments of unrighteousness, but being guided but Spirit, instruments for good. "He who searches the hearts knows the gateway into the Spirit; according to the highest God's bidding, such attends toward the transformation of the Divine Ones." This entire chapter ends, in fact: "What can tear us away from the love of Krestus"? Nothing of the creation! -not tribulation, persecution, famine, sword, death, life, the angelic powers of the creator, nor anything else in his creation - can tear us away from the love of the Benevolent One. Through the love of Krestus we are victorious over the demiurge and his corrupt world, along with his angelic hosts which employed his law as an iron fist to keep us down. Danny

Does unspeakable "groanings" refer to "tongues, though? This incredible outpouring of empathy of the Spirit toward our own, may simply escape words. "Tongues" are supposedly comprised of words. But "groanings"? No. Not always, at least. Someone else here raised an interesting discussion on this passage earlier. Danny

Whoa, if that organ sounds as cool as the stuff from "Nightmare Castle", I'm there, dude... hey, maybe those sounds are coming from "the left". What if "Pentecost" actually turned out to be an event where a "false spirit" was actually imparted? It does strike me as quite unusual that Paul doesn't attribute anything to that particular event. He doesn't refer to"Pentecost, the birth of the church" at all. This event depicted in Acts 2 appears to hold no significance for him in his own epistles. Danny

Glad that you're enjoying these writings too, Roy. It's good to finally see some of these treats adorning the banquet table; the same old homogenized stuff can grow stale after awhile. Danny

Socks, This work may make a bit more sense to you when keeping in mind that to the writer, there is a distinction between the Old Testament deity and the New Testament "Father of Truth". To the writer, Jesus Christ represented a different, higher God situated in the heavenlies above those of Jehovah, who, along with his angels, was ignorant of this higher being; "The Archon was a laughing stock because he said "I am God, and there is none beside me...he does not agree with our Father". Whereas the unknown higher God revealed by Christ , "Neither he nor those before him, from Adam to Moses and John the Baptist, none of them knew me nor my brothers." Apparantly certain gnostics also believed that "Jesus Christ" was a biparte being comprised of the earthly, fleshly "Jesus" which belonged to Jehovah and the spiritual, docetic "Christ" - the Spirit from the different, higher God - which decended upon the fleshly "Jesus" at his baptism, and departed during his death on the cross. Though the fleshly "Jesus" was crucified, the Spirit "Christ' triumphed. "Yes they saw me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and vinegar, it was not I...and I was laughing at their ignorance." A similar expression can also be seen in "The Acts of John". The spiritual Christ's sojourn through the various heavenlies, fooling Jehovah's angelic gatekeepers set to guard each heaven, is also depicted in other writings such as "The Ascension of Isaiah" and to some extent "The Acts of Pilate". Now not all those categorized "gnostics" believed the same things. The material such as "the Treatise to Seth" along with other matieral strikes me as a tad more developed than the ideas I am acqainted with among the early Marcionites. In fact, I think the more literalist, "Biblicist" Marcion may have been as opposed to doctrines and ideas found among other gnostics as they may have been opposed to him (one such example may be "The Letter to Flora", authored by a follower of Valentine, whose position on the Old Testament - as coming from different sources of inspiration - differed from Marcion's position). Danny

I must admit some of these Gnostic writings scramble even my brain Part of the problem being that we don't have direct lines of traditions passed down through living witnesses, descendant from those which produced these works. There is much written throughout the writings of the Church Fathers, in opposition to these so-called heresies, which, coming from those outside looking in, can hardly be regarded as impartial sources (information from them must be gleaned and weighed carefully). The Fathers wrote not to preserve their rivals' doctrines, but to discredit them. There's much work involved in endeavoring to piece together what a particular movement actually believed, when so much information about them is preserved in ugly caricatures. Danny

Depends how filled that wallet is. Is it "filled" below capacity" - or will it overflow with sweet cash? "Dats-ruuu-iiiight...." I swear all those old Way leaders spoke like hoodlums from the old "Superman" series.

Might "new tongues" be (also?)speaking - not literally nor necessarily a foreign language - but of the "new" contents of spiritual speech - The "New Testament", which by virtue of its "newness" and "strangeness" strikes profoundly "foreign" to those hearing it. And might "interpretation" of this "new language" be akin to the pesher practice of expounding scripture, examples abundant among the writings of the Dead Sea scrolls. If taken literally with the other content of Mark 16, one might expect to literally drink poison, play with actual snakes and babble incoherent Martian-speech. I imagine a combination of the poison and the snakes could do that. :) Can't wait to see "Snakes on a Plane". Yours Truly, "Dr. Tongue" (and Bruno) ...in 3-D.

George, You're so evil. I love you.

A momentary flash of thought strikes the brain of "The Rattler": "Ugh, maybe there's something to this fossil fuel stuff after all" Seems rather anti-climatic after all those years working up to "The Apocalypse". As if one's going to only now worry about recycling cans and bottles amidst trials of grass-hopping, men-headed scorpion critter descending from the clouds upon the shoulders of people and plunging their deadly stingers into their backs. Something's not quite right here. Damn that "Rattler" - what's he up to now?

Hey Bill (didn't actually know your real name till now), that "doctrinal dungeon" isn't quite the same without you. Hope to see you around soon. Danny

Go to a library. And/or explore other hobbies/ activities/ subjects that interest you, like Painting, music, gardening, travelling, sports, fishing, electronics, import beer, movies, etc. Danny

He hasn't won the "Civil War" for us yet. He ought to do that next.

There is a similar temptation "showdown" between the prophet Zoroaster and the "Angru" deva, the latter which lifted up mountains and tossed them at the prophet. It read like a lost episode of "Superman".

Did the demiurge fear this "Slave" was robbing him? He seems to have sent the "devourer" after Him - "Accursed is every one that hangeth on the tree". Perhaps this Stranger did not give even one tenth of Himself to this deity's honor. He was a God in His own right. Danny

Flea market advice? I tried Borax once - shook half the contents out of the box, piling it up high especially in the corners of the room and under furniture. Seems to have helped at the time. Danny

If the state is going to be in the business of making medical decisions for people, then they ought to at least implement universal health coverage to millions who presently have none.