skyrider

Thanks Thomas........yeah, in hindsight it is interesting to think "what might have been" IF twi had taken this admonition 31 years ago. Nearly every aspect of the cloning corps program runs against the grain of the One Body, members in particular. And, if its just for training purposes only.......then why does the heavy-handedness exist year after year for corps grads who attend the corps meeting phone hookups? The cloning does NOTHING but spit out rigid followers. Why does no one ask "Where are the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in twi?" Sure, Rosalie is the designated Chairwoman of the Board, but how scripturally sound is THAT? Seriously. Have sound thinking ceased to exist in the belly of the cult? The subtle irony of all this is.......the vaulted claim of "Christ in you" [pfal] has mostly disappeared from their Sunday teachings. That too jolts the brain cells from twi's cult message of "WE have the word." With twi, it takes a cult village to contain a follower.

TWI followers have no desire to work for any government agencies....after all, they are at the spiritual epicenter of God's will, doncha know, promoting da way. It's all about "THE"........"WAY"........"INTERNATIONAL." Years and years of roa grooming, and every staffer and corps is on "bless patrol" 24/7. And, during the "fog years".....what do you think the YAK TWIG was all about? Ralph D. gave us insight into the yak-stuff and the horns facing outward.... The "surveillance" and "monitoring" at twi is a staple part of its "success." The secrecy of its success is the secrecy of its moves.

Yeah......the mandatory request for ALL corps to document their life with explicit, personal information. Weren't some even threatened to be thrown out of the corps because they did NOT write it until pressured? And, what about the corps and staff placement meetings? How MUCH information was divulged about our lives? Dozens and dozens of people are privy to personal [secret] information about my life. Gee, I'm glad to be away from that hellhole of denizens. When I exited twi.....a few months later, one of my corps "friends" told me that Martindale had pulled out one of my letters of correspondence to him, publicly read it on corps night, and sarcastically inserted plenty of cynicism. After 24 years of devotion to twi.......the LONG KNIVES COME OUT IMMEDIATELY. How's that song go?........"every step you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you." :B)

It was creepy......knowing that twi leadership had a "spiritual surveillance" over your life. Most notably, corps and staff at those root locales felt the watchful eyes of overseers on them constantly. Surveillance is defines as --- 1 a) close watch kept over someone, esp. a suspect, b) constant observation of a place or process, 2. supervision or inspection. Twi deflected the creepiness by saying that it was the responsibility of an overseer to protect his flock from the wiles of the devil. Yeah, right. The constant monitoring, and suspicion.....the reporting back, enough was never enough, uuugh. I distinctly remember the day that I exited twi.......F-R-E-E-D-O-M. The phone calls stopped. The fax machine went silent. No corps meetings to attend. No region/limb coordinator calling me. No monthly reports. Silence. It was awesome!!!!! The surveillance thing....imo, was built on distrust. Clearly, leaders weren't quick to look for ways to compliment our actions, our boldness, our independent thinking. Nope. Most often, they were waiting to pounce on our individualism, or NOT checking with them first. Egads. Some snot-nosed corps kid wanted me to run everything by him BEFORE acting on common sense? or agape love? Give me a freaking break. The legalism and bondage that kept encroaching into twi WAS ORDERED AND SIGNED OFF FROM TOP MANIPULATORS. Did wierwille ever step in and confront it? No. It was the building blocks of his cult. It was common knowledge that twi kept corps files for 10 years! Corps evaluations, LEAD reports, notes, cards written to wierwille, one's corps research paper, etc.....all this stuff was amassed and kept in R-Kive boxes and handed back to the corps after 10 years. And, now......Americans are learning about governmental surveillance and the amassing/collecting of phone data, emails, facebook, google, etc. to be stored away in a megacenter in Utah. The crossroads of liberty and security intersect and there is a diverging opinion of where that should be. When "rulers" are able to reward their friends and punish their enemies.....Lady Liberty and Lady Justice are no longer the first ladies of America. Anyhoo.....there are times, after leaving twi, when I feel like cults of narcissists are gaining more prominence daily.

The so-called "Word in Culture" was not to be. Artists, dancers, authors, cartoonists, psychiatrists, architects, medical professionals, orchestra personnel, etc. had graduated from the corps program and were moving back into their spheres of influence. All the joyous excitement and enthusiasm was erupting from deep within their souls. The simplicity in Christ, not the machinery, was the real motion of devotion. Surely twi was bigger than "just running classes" and in-house programs, right? Surely upper ranks could see this window of opportunity might close if not perceived, right? Surely they understood that people and the machinery were totally different aspects, right? Nope. What I was witnessing in 1982....I refused to believe. With shallow breaths, Twi was dying before my eyes.

Yeah.....BUT it didn't stop the machinery and wierwille-doctrine. Spiritual Blindness had pervaded the upper-tier of twi's leadership ranks as they marched in lockstep to the wierwille ideology. Some of us SAW THE RED FLAGS in the late-70s and early-80s....and BEFORE the martindale presidency, but towns3nd, cumm!ns, geer, rivenbark, and others were aggressively stoking the fires to keep the machine humming along. And, then.....even though an exodus ensues in 1987, dozens of offshoot leaders arise TO BUILD THEIR OWN WIERWILLE-WANNABE WHIRLAJIG. Will the insanity cease? Will the merry-go-round stop? Will another generation fall prey to new lions lying in wait to deceive? Sometimes, I think that "speaking in tongues" and twi's skewing of God's true manifestations is a bewitching mechanism in and of itself. See, if one can babble in an unknown language.....then, twi has "got to be right." Right?

In January 1982, as twi was gearing up for the Living Victoriously event.....I felt emboldened by three years of observation of corps/staff experience to present a counter-measure to twi's cultish mentality. The corps cloning and staff stooges was enough to alert my attention that twi was headed in the wrong direction!! So, having invested a considerable amount of time in this "counter-revolution" mode.....I decided to submit a five-series event at hq to HIGHLIGHT INDIVIDUALITY. Amazingly......the trustee's approved it. L..iving O..ur V..ictory E..veryday To run parallel to twi's theme of Living Victoriously.....my concept of "LOVE" was to spotlight the uniqueness of everyone and what each contributes to the grand scheme of Love God and neighbor. Talents, backgrounds, sharings, tenderheartedness,......each of us is unique and special in God's eyes. The first night was to kick off a special banquet and then, I emceed the night of "variety" to exude the LOVE that should encompass the heart of the children of light. This was NOT a Way Productions night, but a night of revealing truth of the heart and talent latent all around us. The other four nights.......one night of heart sharings and poems, one night of hobbies/talents, one night of "How God delivered me," and a final night to wrap up the uniqueness of members in particular in the One Body of Christ. My goal was to bring humility and tenderness to the forefront and to get beyond twi buzz-speak. This was NOT about twi and its classes and machinery. This five-series LOVE appeal.....was an attempt to break the noise level of twi's constant machinery and mog-worship. In the midst of this wierwille-apex.....I countered the twi machine. With each night, the sincere compliments and notes of appreciation came pouring in. My in-house staff mailbox was filled with cards of thanks. Each night of tenderness, more cards came flowing in. But....of all the many thanks that came my way, the one that I most remember was from Rev. Vince F!nnegan. He came to my office and looked me straight in the eyes with a sincerity that time stood still and said, "What you did here this week was one of the most amazing, heart-felt events that has happened at hq in a very long time. Thank you. God bless you." And then, he leaned over and hugged me. Imagine the vindication that I felt. Here, the designated "World-wide Outreach Coordinator" complimenting me for submitting and coordinating this series that reached into the heart with tender love. Vince had traveled endless hours with Way Productions and all......and yet, spotlighting the individual heart, love, and talents of others all around him had deeply moved him. Even after weeks passed, many in the halls of OSC would stop me and thank me again for what I did. So.....when defenses are down when love pours in, I believe that many knew deep down even back then [1982] that twi was headed in the wrong direction. Of course, the noise level picks up and the machine starts humming along again......and the sound of the machine mesmerizes once again.

Yeah......a point is reached where criticism replaces the welcoming encouragement. Why? The relationship is changing wherein the new recruit is quickly gaining access to "same seniority scenario" and on equal footing. Thus, manipulation and intimidation replace the warm fuzzies of belonging/acceptance. Wierwille set this tone in pfal. His ego and bravado come thru loud and clear.....and this strife was latent throughout twi. The long-standing or caste system was just as prevalent in twi as in business or politics. Divisively, the biting and devouring was the outcome of those who never knew the full measure of Christ's life and deliverance.

I tend to see all this as a multi-level/grooming process......1)Find a willing recruit, 2)Assign him/her a position, 3)Encourage and monitor progress, 4)After completion, give him another responsible with a slightly higher "authority," 5)Lavish with more encouragement, 6)Build recruit until he becomes dedicated and recruiting others. Yep......Incremental Indoctrination 101 After just two classes, I was asked to be the next *Assistant Class Instructor*......thus, to shadow the Class Instructor and to be there to fill in as "Class Instructor" if the need should arise. Every class had a crew and "opportunities to build your spiritual growth"........ PFAL Class Responsibilities 1) Class Instructor 2) Assistant Instructor 3) A/V person 4) Setup Coordinator (2 helpers) 5) Bookstore person (1 helper) 6) Refreshment person (1 helper) Small classes didn't need this many assignments, but larger classes did. Twi seemed to have a way of labeling people into one of two categories: Outreach or Support. And, years later.....the "support people" became the ones who were "good administrators with staff jobs."

That's right......the "instructor" is responsible for promoting other products and twi classes that will lead students further into this mog-worship. All the minions are to laugh when wierwille tells that joke for the 30th time and nod their approval for his theatrics in pfal. The multi-level marketing guidelines detail the short breaks, the monitoring of responses, the plethora of more classes to sign-up for, and programs help reboot spiritual life. The instructor's manual was your lifeline to spirituality.

At one time, I thought that being a "pfal class instructor" was an honored position......."spiritually overseeing" the class, the students, the integrity of the teachings being administered by wierwille, etc. My first class was audio only and this instructor sat in front of the class and flipped the charts on cue and supervised every aspect of it. But what is it to instruct, really?....1)to communicate knowledge, to teach, educate 2)to give facts or information to a particular matter, to inform or guide. The latter definition [to give facts or information] more aptly describes the task of the "honoree." Greet people. Get them to their seats. Run tapes. Take break. Get them in their seats. Run tapes. Smile and gesture as wierwille teaches. Give information of next class. Close class. Say Goodnight. I have often made that statement about wierwille's way corps......"It was a followership program. Not a leadership program. The design of the corps program was to build and equip dedicated PFAL Class Instructors for twi." The pyramid scheme is to assign tasks to each level in the caste system and KEEP THEM BOUND TO THAT LEVEL. You see, if you start encouraging leadership, then people start exerting leadership. And then, that builds confidence and free thought and independence.....and out the door they go! So, you can't have that. You have to deceive people in to thinking that they're receiving one thing, while slipping in a counterfeit. The class instructor gig has to be the most tedious serf position in the twi organization. 1) Organize Public Ex -- to get the required amount to register for pfal. 2) Work thru scheduling conflicts and set class starting date. 3) Select class crew and work thru all the details. 4) Make sure all undershepherding grads are diligent with their student. 5) Punctuality at every session. 6) Observe and monitor students' receptivity. 7) Holy spirit field is of major importance. 8) Stay vigilant. 9) Goal is to see everyone manifest [sit]. 10) Class forms, info, abs sent to hq. 11) Class picture. 12) Thank you card to The Teacher. See.......with all those details, one really needs to be corps-trained to do it right. <_<

John....what's with the focus on LCM? Are you attempting to point to Geer's "accomplishments" by referencing LCM as a standard-bearer? Really? Talk about HOLLOW arguments.....you're nailing it!

Yes, wierwille DID plagiarize heavily from many sources, most notably Leonard's foundational class.....but he also added Albert Cliffe's occultist doctrine of "the law of believing." Lots of patchwork and mortaring to make for a *WIERWILLE LEAN-TO OUTHOUSE.* John, I can fully understand that you are "not up to speed on the offshoots"......because you really aren't "up to speed" on wierwille's sleight of hand false ministry even after all these years of hanging out here at GSC. No worries. Go at the speed that best works for you.....but at your rate, it might take awhile.

Yeah.....once you SEE THE SCAM, for *most* it's kind of inevitable to move beyond wierwille .....and to move beyond twi's "private interpretation" schtick. .....and to move beyond the offshoots that model twi's multi-level marketing class/outreach format. .....and to move beyond ALL TWI'S PSEUDO-TRUTH of "walking by the spirit." But then......some followed offshoots into momentus. And...........some followed offshoots into personal prophecy and nose spiders.

Yeah......no surprise NOW. BUT, having defended wierwille and co. for all that time AND before the "scales fell from my eyes"....I THOUGHT twi would move beyond wierwille. Wasn't that what pfal was all about? Biblical Research, No Man's Opinion, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.....and all that jazz!

For years, I thought TWI would move beyond wierwille. I was wrong. 1) Biblical Research would keep forging ahead, right? 2) Valiant men and women of truth would not allow man-worship in twi, right? 3) The "household of God" would keep their eyes fixated on God, right? WRONG. The organization was centered on wierwille, not Christ. The organization was all about wierwille, always. The organization has circled the wagons to keep wierwille at center. Geer pushed the wierwille-doctrine. Martindale had the wierwille-mantle. Rosalie re-instated wierwille-mania. Offshoots keep leavening the lump. J2P2 runs his grandpappy's corps program. Man-worship.......nothing new under the sun. <_<

In 1983, the sunday services were held in the OSC dining room awaiting the construction of the auditorium. Like all sunday service events, it seemed to be the same, normal procedure which would be consumed into another uneventful meeting.....UNTIL THE FIRE ALARM WENT OFF. As the people were briskly exiting the south doors toward the patio and curb, I headed directly to the control panel near the receptionist desk. A few others did the same.....mostly the first-responder-types and hq volunteer firemen. The panel displayed six quadrants and the light on the northwest section, the OSC warehouse/bookstore quadrant, was on. With that, we headed thru the lobby into the warehouse and dashed to the warehouse bookstore. For those unfamiliar with twi's OSC building.....the building was sectioned right down the middle from west to east. The warehousing department entailed half of the building.....six hundred feet long [two football fields in length]. Anyways....as our small group reached the bookstore/warehouse section, linder and brooks, two security guys were close behind. Back thru the shelving rows, we saw the small fire on the top tier of pallets. With some quick action, the small fire was snuffed out and then, the questions surfaced. It was obviously, intentionally set by someone(s) who devised a burning mechanism that gave the perpetrator time to climb down and get away BEFORE the flame ignited and burned the pallet of book materials. Set in the bookstore area, this little fire had the potential to cause major damage. Before any extensive investigation was brought to bear, the security guys were on their two-way radios and using code words. The two perpetrators had been seen running out the eastside of the OSC warehouse just as the fire alarm sounded. And, with the sunday service ongoing, this raised suspicions as most everyone on grounds was in attendance except for a few security guys and refreshment/hamburger crews prepping for when the service was ended. So, who were these two guys who allegedly set the fire devise? The two security guys, linder and brooks, wouldn't say.....at least, not to us. In whispers, it was revealed that Bobby Cumm!ns and Ralphie Wierw-lle had set the fire. How ironic life can be at times. That sunday service, it was Walter Cumm!ns as emcee and Don Wierwille was set to teach. .

Even though Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, does a fairly good job of sanitizing vp wierwille's aspirations, education, character, and ministry......the plagiarist and predatory trail is quite easy to follow unless one is a wierwille-defender ideologue. An upright minister's character and integrity will mesh and bear fruit of godliness; an hireling will not. From the self-serving "history" of snow-covered gas pumps and vesper chimes hour to the chris geer "The Passing of a Patriarch" and Mrs. Wierwille's sanitized version of wierwille's life.......The Twi Cover-Up: Before, During and After has had their version pushed and published for consumption. Why? Twi profits. Off-shoot leaders profit. Wierwille-defenders "profit" by standing for something of significance [or so they thought]. Every effort to discredit and marginalize GSC and its posters is duly noted. And, silence....to refrain from voicing any attention to GSC at all....is calculated in the highest offices of twi. No doubt. Remember when Rev. Harve Pl@tig, twi's vice-president at the time, posted on GSC regarding JP Wierwille's claim of twi neglecting his mother? Apparently, when Mrs. W was sent to an assisted-living retirement facility there was deep concern that Rosalie and co. had failed in spiritual protocol and vpw's command to "faithfully take care of Mrs. W throughout her life." Anyway, Harve's posting gave clear indication that twi's board of directors acknowledged the far-reaching impact of Greasespot Café. It took the brouhaha of a wierwille, JP, and the delicate subject of Mrs. W's healthcare to break their silence code. And, afterwards......back into silent mode they went. The Twi Cover-Up: Before, During and After BEFORE.....twi likes to lay claim that "God taught vpw directly." Many times, its inferred.....but the implication is the same. Wierwille is special. He SO WALKED WITH GOD that the Lord taught him all these "lost" truths. Wierwille did nothing but research the scriptures for 12 solid years and taught others what he was learning. Scrubbed from view is the Van Wert church where wierwille's name was stricken from the clergy church registry. Or, that twi was founded in 1942 when kids sang a few songs on wierwille's radio broadcast that was patterned after Rev. Robert Fuller's program. BG Leonard's class stolen -- scrubbed. Plagairism -- scrubbed. During.....twi was a booming success during the 1970s and early 1980s upon his retirement in 1982 and hand-picked successor, Rev. L. Craig Martindale. The corps program was wierwille's version of the School of the Prophets. The WOW program, the Rock of Ages and the Corps Program were things that legacies are made of. The ideals and idolatry live on, but the pictures are shelved in the OSC warehouse somewhere. After all, if large group pictures of WOWs [1,400 or 2,200] and corps graduations [upwards of 340 per yr]......it would show how pathetic the numbers are today. Lots and lots of failures along the way have been scrubbed, because it doesn't look all that godly when one stumbles along with "trial and error" decisions. The sexual predation -- silenced. Even the likes of Geer and Cumm!ns could have ministered to the hurt and pain.....but then, that would have exposed vp wierwille further. So blame shifting resulted. Look over there! Or, the wreckage of the twig hopper. Or, the death of wierwille from cancer. After.....twi continues on its path of wierwille legacy and idolatry. Even the martindale presidency has been SCRUBBED and SILENCED. It matters not that he was the man "a God-inspired wierwille" chose to lay the mantle on his shoulders and privately counsel him to have lots of sex with other women. The WAP classes have been shelved and the newer version of pfal was infused. The legacy lives on in 'The Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium.' Are the statues still sold? I have no idea. Even J2P2 Wierwille, the grandson of wierwille, has a version of the corps training program in Mississippi. Same five corps objectives and an aspect of LEAD. Not sure how much creepier that it might get.....but maybe, a great-grandson is coming down the pike. The wierwille-legacy will live on......as long as there is money to be made from it. The cover-up is the best way to keep milking the cash cow.

And....true Christianity continues on this marketing foundation. 2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. TWI became a pathetic, manipulative operation to run pfal classes and exploit others' labor and tithing.

When it comes to "marketing" Christianity......it's ALREADY been done. No catchy slogans.....no marketing campaigns.....no slick publications......no super bowl ads. Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 1) Who was this Jesus of Nazareth? --- [this lowly, little, unknown place?] 2) A man approved of God --- what? no blueblood pedigree? no intellectual prowess? 3) Among you --- not just some podium preacher or flim-flam hypocrite 4) By miracles and wonders and signs --- TALK ABOUT MARKETING FOR ALL TO SEE! 5) Which GOD DID by him in the midst of you --- *a product everyone should want* 6) As ye yourselves ALSO KNOW --- seen it, want it, need it, own it *** 7) And, THAT'S what marketing is God-style

So....I ask you to please elaborate and THIS is your answer? A vague generalization that all men sin? Well, in my opinion.....willful, deliberate sinning on his motorcoach between campuses and then, arriving to "teach the word" (cough, cough) to more gullible youth is outside the boundaries of "we all sin." But hey, if you can justify that in your brain and wholeheartedly support vpw's pfal class stuff....go for it. The numerous errors have been pointed out on this forum for years. And, Albert Cliffe, an occultist, was the one who taught wierwille about "the law of believing" where you could live forever if your believing didn't falter. Wierwille really chummed with Al, because he [Al] was a cigarette-smoking believer, also. Albert went so far as to title his topic, "The Miracle of Believing." See, its all within you.....you just got to believe. Check out Mrs. W's book. It's in there.

Geer claimed to have "the last will and testament of wierwille".....and his puffy piece of personal platitudes and 'the patriarch' who passed before us WAS a deer in the headlights moment for the trustees. The words of wierwille carrying THAT KIND OF POWER IN TWI. And, geer knew it. The power-grab was a set-up......and geer, supposedly, held all the aces in the deck. Supposedly, he (geer) was given the secret decoder ring to help twi "get back to the word." And, geer played it for all it was worth. At twi, the trustees scrambled to make concessions for geer to come to hq and help them "get back to the word." Trailer 5 was given top priority by Way Builders to equip it with all the European a/v fixtures/outlets for geer's convenience when he came to hq. The trailer unit was upgraded and totally designed "the Chris Geer unit." Within weeks, it was done.......and then, as the weeks and months passed GEER NEVER SPENT ONE NIGHT IN THAT UNIT EQUIPPED FOR HIM. Another thing......geer was in coomunication with Donna Martindale, but not Craig. It was like he was deliberately injecting strife and separation into the martindale marriage. The egos of martindale and geer were so immense that those guys couldn't function together on the same continent! Some have said that these two men were competing for wierwille's approval thru the years......and martindale wrote that little booklet "VP and Me" and Geer was sent to run the European Corps program and European Outreach. Then, when vpw died, all this ego and strife boiled to the surface. Anyhoo......most of us saw the power-struggle that erupted. Some blame martindale. Some blame geer. I tend to think that wierwille was the culprit. Wierwille never wanted leaders.......he wanted followers. In my opinion, the corps program was instigated to raise up dedicated, class instructors. Nothing more.

Long gone are the days of my youth......and the naivete that accompanies it. Just because one ascribes himself as "The Teacher" doesn't make it so. Been there, done that.....and have the t-shirt and corps sweats and nametags to prove it. Count me as one who stands firmly in the camp of "prove that you can do it FIRST." Not just spout words and charisma in front of others, but have the credentials and proper knowledge of the subject. The world is full of teachers of philosophy, theology, economics, history, etc. that have totally diverging concepts, inflections, and endgames. For regulars at this site, the wierwille scandal has been exposed by dredging thru twi's swamp of lies, distortions, plagiarism, cherry-picking scriptures, etc. to manipulate and exploit the youth. But hey......now, with eyes-wide-open, its been around for centuries by every snake-oil salesman that peddled his wares. Sure, wierwille cloaked himself as "a man of the cloth" and strutted his stuff.....but really, few older adults bought into his "ministry." New Knoxville businessmen stayed away. Local farmers couldn't stand him. The farmer across the road from the BRC hadn't spoken to wierwille in decades. The grads of those 1960s classes, most all of them kept moving away from twi. Yet.......the youth clamored to "be taught." We didn't ask for his credentials. Nor did we give much thought to the glaring discrepancies. And even though the Van Wert church had stricken his name from their clergy registry, few cared. We were young. We were strong. We were invincible. Even those in disgrace, are still in demand. As the world turns, there's always another batch of students awaiting.... Click Here

This subject came up on another thread....and the more I thought about it, the more repugnant it sounded. Would you attend a twig that worships wierwille? Or, if a couple of faithful, long-standing deceivers.....er, "believers" were into the wierwille-worship thingy, could you stomach the idolatry in your midst? In my opinion, this is a serious subject and not something that one can dance around on. In all my years of involvement, NOT ONCE do I remember wierwille confront the growing adulation that came his way. NOT ONCE....do I remember wierwille openly teach STOP THE IDOLATRY and make Jesus Christ your lord. The "man of God" buzzspeak and "Father in the Word" slobberfests by Geer, Martindale and Townsend didn't help matters either. Nor did wierwille and his "Man of God" silver bracelet. The insanity of it all. How can one claim to have *learned the word* in pfal.....only to succumb to wierwille-worship? If one is to even apply a sliver of truth from the advanced class, then one has given into seducing and deceiving spirits. Right? What a mess. In pursuit of truth, one ends up deceived and deceiving others. I think this is what the scriptures depict when stating "the blind lead the blind and both fall into the ditch."

Galen....I find it rather interesting that your response to sock's statement "All men are liars that's what the big book says" is to first address it by saying "I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well." WOW, just WOW --- hints....may......womanizing.....scoundrel......as well. On one hand, you subtly induce doubt about the character and integrity of the Apostle Paul.....and then, link this 'fallen corruption' to VPW. So, if Paul had problems and could have been a womanizing scoundrel....why should we expect any more from VPW? Is that what you're saying? Please elaborate. Also, you mention that a couple people in the twig you attend "worship VPW." So, have you taken them aside and taught them the more perfect way, the Lord Jesus Christ? Or, do you just let it slide? Perhaps, you could teach a mini-series on this topic.....and see if that changes their perspective of idolizing wierwille? If "wierwille walking by and touching me was the MOST SPIRITUAL MOMENT of my entire life"......then, I would certainly know that I was in a weak twig and colluding with cultish perspectives. Sounds like there's a lot to be done to correct the Galatians bewitching.