skyrider

You mean like this?....... Click -- Originality Challenge of RHST

Quote: "I agree that certain aspects of it weren't necessarily taught wrong..." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My point in my last post was NOT to validate or invalidate how wierwille taught it, but rather to point out that this ordination issue, at least according to twi, included an expanded "dimension" to the listing of 5 gift ministries. .

Okay.....I skimmed back thru this thread and wanted to add something that has not been mentioned. Having been corps, and hq-staffer [5 yrs], and clergy......I was involved in plenty of corps meetings, staff meetings and a few clergy meetings. For three years, I served as a "wedding coordinator liason" [along with 5 others] to facilitate the planning, organization, and weddings on hq-property. I had many occasions to brush shoulders with many fine men and women clergy. Anyways, here is another "dimension" of the ordination/clergy aspect: On at least 4 or 5 different occasions, wierwille keynoted the aspects of helps and governments [organization] within the framework of ordinations. He cited and expounded on I Corinthians 12:27-31. I Cor. 12:27-31 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Briefly, wierwille taught that this section of scripture gives a partial listing of the gift ministries, and manifestations....while embedding "helps and governments" in the mix of coveting earnestly a more excellent way to the edification of the Body of Christ. The full listing of the 5 specific gift ministries is in Ephesians. At the time, 1979 or 1980.....there were PLENTY of clergy at headquarters intricately involved and overseeing departments like audio/video, way productions, film & photography, printing, architecture, finance, etc. I still have some of my clergy notes stored away in boxes. And,.....no, I have no intention of digging thru them or defending wierwille's teaching of it. I simply bring this to mind for those who might be trying to figure out whether or not some clergyman or clergywoman fit into the 5 categories: 1)apostles, 2)prophets, 3)evangelists, 4)pastors, 5)teachers. At one particular time, there was this 5th corps guy who lived in that A-tel in the way woods and he was ordained. Some were sorta wondering why does this ordained guy stay on staff and live isolated in the woods. Shortly after that, I remember wierwille teaching and elaborating on its broader definition.....namely, helps and governments [organizational depth. I vaguely seem to remember wierwille illustrating how Jesus chose the 12 [and in Bullinger's work, Numbers in Scripture, this designates "organizational perfection"]....iirc So, add this to the discussion.....or don't. Perhaps, there are others who will come forward with more information on this. Oh, and.......hi Sunesis.

Throughout these 143 pages of threads in this forum, the "rank and file" tell us why twi collapsed so quickly. Those who sit at their desks at corporate-twi have no clue what it's like on the field to fight thru the constant challenges of paying the bills, getting kids fed/clothed and to school, work 8-10 hr days.....AND THEN twig, witness, run class, meetings, events, fill out forms, give 15%, etc. taking orders as subordinates doing volunteer work. Wierwille's "vision" of all this was a Ponzi scheme. While those on the field are fleeced of life and livelihood.....those at hq pontificate and mandate a pseudo-christian warped lifestyle. Why does ALL monies go one direction? Did they really do that in the book of acts? pppfffftt.

Yep, really weird to look back.....or see it thru a family loved ones' eyes. " We believe he is still part of TWI. Everything we know about him is pretty foggy because he did not communicate with us much after he joined TWI." "We just want to let Joey know that we miss him and love him. Our parents aren't getting any younger and I know that their one and only wish is to see their first born son again. I really don't know how TWI works...." .

Like this, nearly 10 years ago.......Click -- Anyone know Joe Leap

Yeah....through the years, I've seen these pockets of staunch pfal-followers who isolate themselves from twi's grid. I was told back then, that they were "the true believers." Back in 1985, I met with a pfal grad, a rogue leader, who had separated "his group" from twi and this was BEFORE the cgeer power-grab and splintering in 1986. With green bumper stickers and pfal-shrines in their homes, it was truly fascinating to see their fervent bunker mentality and wierwille adulation. In 1993, in Midwest America two other groups had done the same. Like mini-pockets of "standing on the word".....they had stopped attending twig fellowships YEARS AGO and ceased going to roa. YET, the bumper stickers stayed. But.....life's opportunities, education, advancement, networking, society.....had NO PLACE in the cult-commune mentality. Whether any of those kids advanced past high school, or pfal-shrines......I don't know. It was just freaky to see them shut off from what most consider the norms of society and acceptance. So, I guess that I'm no longer puzzled by such isolation. We've seen the 1996 Branch Davidian commune in Waco, TX. And, twi's version, ie Victor Barnard corps grad, erupt of late. It's just sad to see the entrapment. I suppose that little "standing on the word" mantra lives on in people's heads and it helps to justify their yesteryears....and still speak of it on Facebook. .

Today, I'd like to examine twi's collapse in another way. Rather than pointing out the obvious culprits [for the 10 thousandth time].....cult, commune, lockstep, pyramid, authoritarian, cult of personality, scam, wierwille's death, etc. What would have built long-lasting strength and faithfulness? 1) Each born-again individual is a wonder of God --- no cloning 2) The institution of marriage --- each marriage is to be strengthened and special 3) The institution of family ----- personal, private, boundaries, traditions 4) The institution of education -- and higher education opens doors of advancement 5) The institutions of community and neighbor -- help and uplift with compassion 6) The institution of wealth and privilege -- of whom much is given, much is required 7) Foundation of love & independence -- go forth in love, remember your roots 8) From generation to generation --- put your faith in the hands of God Did wierwille really think that his pfal class would sustain and animate our attention and loyalty for the next 60 years? How could he possibly been SO misguided? The only answer that seems to make any sense of this is.....wierwille's narcissism. Wierwille attempted to build twi on the pillars of individuals......ermal, harry, george jess, dorothy, rhoda, etc. as if we would somehow be fixated on their "great works" a lifetime. And then, wierwille's own son, Don, gets his Doctorate in Education.....but comes back to lead everyone else into this commune way of living?? Huh? Why clip the wings of the growing, maturing youth? Why the subversion of independent thought, goals, and achievements in the real world? Heck, the "institution of church" doesn't even begin to define its significance in such terms. Kids grow up, go to college, move away....so what? Is there any wonder why it collapsed so quickly? The institutions of society that have been built from generation to generation can withstand quite a bit of stress before collapse, but twi had no such adequate pillars in place.

For me....I look at this place like a level playing field. Some posters have come here who NEVER were in twi. Some have asked pertinent questions because he/she was dating a pfal grad. For others....concerned about a brother? sister? why way disciple program? corps? So many of us invested years, if not decades, into twi and saw red flags and slivers of evil that were disturbing. Yet, it was SO EASY to dismiss things or doubt oneself..... BECAUSE we were taught in "Dealing with the Adversary" that one of four fronts of the devil was YOU. And, yet.....coming to the Café, we learn that it was THEM.

Bolshevik......according to post #7, you want to talk about a "dialogue with wayfers." You are the one who initiated this. It was YOUR idea. Please don't derail this thread. Start a new thread. If I want to add to your conversation and list some threads to help you with this supposed "dialogue with wayfers".....I will join in. Thanks.

Why has Waydale and Greasespot Café been so valuable? The first rule about fight club corps training is that you don't talk about fight club corps training. The second rule about fight club ordinations is that you don't talk about fight club ordinations. The third rule about fight club wierwille's credibility as "man of god" is that you....don't....talk....about....wierwille. To talk about this openly DESTROYS THE MYSTIQUE.

Why is twi always in damage control? Why the desperate bunker mentality? Spies, and lies, and bribes......oh my! Gee.....it purports all the same DNA as the Pharisees. They are the ONES with nothing fresh. Their lecture series of indoctrination, ...er, sunday teachings are so scripted, contrived and boring that anyone more than 30 miles away looks for any excuse to NOT attend another one of those. They are the ONES who proclaim to have the answers to life and abundance.....and they struggle to find even staffers to fill positions. Especially those low-level, polish floors, scrub the toilets, food prep, and be excited to get the minimum wage (if that). They are the ONES who mandate 15-20% of your income for lousy, tedious, condescending drivel that has been pumped thru the system for 45 years. Screw that! It's a damn scam. Spies, and surveillance, and monitoring.........is NOT in the Christian format.

THAT is one of the great things about GSC......all of the voices, all of the posters that have added 3,000 vantage points to help piece together the puzzle. Women came forward to tell their stories. Corps exposed the rampant indoctrination. Staffers gave witness to hq shenanigans. President Cabinet guy told lots of stuff. When I learned that LCM was secretly in Toledo.....I posted it. THAT started a whole series of twi's stealth practices. There is a reason why WayGB keep their eyes on this place. There are reasons why Rosalie gets these GS updates.

Raf....sure, that's fair. But for those of us who've been around these threads since like 2000...... lots of folks have come to this forum and THANKED GSC because they felt 1)ashamed, 2)guilt-ridden, 3)confused, 4)etc. for leaving twi. No, let's not exaggerate its influence.......BUT it seems fair to say that hundreds upon hundreds have walked out of here MORE CONFIDENT, MORE ASSURED, and MORE ADAMANT to not get sucked into a cult again. It matters not to me who poo-poos the Greasespot Café website..... some just haven't connected the dots of a cult's devastation, rape, incest, and life-long turmoil. Read: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Yeah....ABUSE. That's twi. And, I will gladly stand against its evil.

You don't think GSC has been successful in exposing twi's underbelly?

The Café gives everyone a voice. 1) Tell your life story 2) Go to friend-tracker to locate someone 3) Sharing of someone who has deceased 4) Questions, answers, books, dialogue 5) Never a part of twi, but dating someone who is 6) Why should you join or avoid twi 7) What was good in pfal 8) What was wrong in pfal 9) Things about WOW, Fellow-Laborers, Corps, Clergy 10) Personal incidents, observations, confrontations, etc. 11) Someone who ran into a post-twi prez lcm 12) Someone who lurks here and NEVER posts 13) WayGB who keep their eyes on this place 14) Those who like to connect the dots of twi's evil 15) Etc. etc. etc. Whatever your reason for walking thru the GS doors, you've entered a unique place. Many have tried to duplicate its prestige, but pressured out of existence for one reason or another. With 143 pages of thread in the By The Way forum alone, you can see the vastness of subjects that have been discussed thru the years. Many, many posters have come and gone....but their words embed the wisdom of a multitude of counsellors. Doors are always open.

Nope. Not one. What "new things" or examples?

Like what? Examples?

Greasespot Café is an open dialogue and lively place. Many of the regular customers here, the patrons, like coming here for a variety of reasons. Heck, there's a back hallway and basement for the deep thinkers and their books, the doctrinal types. New people are always welcome. You got questions? You got viewpoints? You deeply entrenched into your way of thinking? Fine. If you want to strongly state your case, most here will gather around and listen.....to a point. We love open dialogue. That's the thing that separates this joint from everyone else in wayworld and splinterworld. We were not allowed to publicly question the pfal class after session 12. Twi has always railroaded their classes and agenda without open dialogue or consideration of the individual. Wierwille's brand was authoritative dogma and mandates. We left. Things splintered into hundreds of different corners. Even places like the CES/STFL, CFF, Geerites, Finnyganites, Panarelloites......where is there OPEN DIALOGUE and PUBLIC DISCOURSE? This place is special. The doors are always open. Like I stated yesterday...."After 15 years of Waydale and GSC.....I would be surprised if there is anything new that hasn't been covered 50 times or more. And, we've had our share of scuffles, food-fights, hotheads, drive-byes, righteous rivals, disgruntles, those who flame the corps/clergy and those who claim everyone at this café is possessed." If you come into the café and want to be left alone [lurk]....fine. If you want to engage in some lively, thought-provoking dialogue.....have at it. If you like to be brash and confrontational? Heck, we've seen it plenty of times. If you think that you can push people around, you might want to rethink that. This 21st Century cyber-café gives everyone a voice. And......anonymity is our "nametag."

......"more valuable" ?? Good luck.

Yeah.....leaving twi is what adds to the conversation around here. But really.....I wouldn't doubt it one bit if TLC and I agree on 75-80% of those things. Heck, I'd buy him a beer or two....if he'd just slow down and drop the defensive posture. After 15 years of Waydale and GSC.....I would be surprised if there is anything new that hasn't been covered 50 times or more. And, we've had our share of scuffles, food-fights, hotheads, drive-byes, righteous rivals, disgruntles, those who flame the corps/clergy and those who claim everyone at this café is possessed. But after a week or two.....this thread will slowly, but surely, fade into the storage bin and few will ever take the time to read all 9 pages. Picture the end of that movie, Raiders of the Lost Arc [ie stored in warehouse]. They do sell beer in this joint, don't they? :beer:/> .

Hmmm......metaphors, schmetaphors. Minefields, wolf packs......oh my! How about this? A tough guy (not a wuss, as you said) walks into the Café and makes his way to a side bar. Along the way he elbows a couple of patrons and insults a waitress to get her attention.....yet that's not enough. So, he grunts and spits on the floor. Oh no, people here just "so mean." As more stare and wonder what the heck this tough guy (according to him, he's not a wuss) is doing.....he eggs on the onlookers to throw his a$$ out. Look at the mistreatment he stammers.......as he pees on the floor. :biglaugh:

Chockfull.....yeah, I like discussions that have in-depth value. Even when I link a thought-provoking thread to TLC's question....his response is to fire back with broad generalizations and accusations. We've seen these drive-by posters in the past. No biggie. Maybe he will stick around and add some substance. Maybe not. Obviously, he doesn't want to engage in open discussion. Oh well. I got to get back to work. .

WOW.....is that how those "biblical keys to research" have helped you discern? What about the "Dr." title? Oooohh......it must REALLY be bad then, according to your "generalization" methods.

One of the really nice features about Greasespot Café and its open forum has been the in-depth discussions for the past 15 years. With 143 pages of threads.....it's been really great insight into hundreds upon hundreds of vantage points. So many who've passed thru these doors are now into another phase of life and involvement.