skyrider

I disagree. Just because someone remembers something, that doesn't make it nostalgic. Now if someone like MRAP goes on to embrace the reasons for remembering it, then yes......that would fall in that category. One aspect of the "how" illustration was to help set the HOOK in the "importance of the vpw-ministry." Note the quotation marks.

Here is what I remember of the "Drunk Story"..... 1) Wierwille claimed that he worked long and hard on a sermon on the abuses of alcohol 2) Lo and behold....this one Sunday, this drunk sits in the very back pew 3) Wierwille (claimed) he taught this long sermon on alcohol woes 4) After sermon, wierwille felt pride....and patted himself on the back 5) Then....the drunk comes forward and bluntly says that he came to church to learn HOW TO OVERCOME HIS ALCOHOLIC PROBLEM....and that, he could tell ole wierwille more about it than wierwille would ever know 6) Wierwille quit shaking hands with the congregants and went back to his church office and knelt down in prayer....and ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS 7) Wierwille claimed that "if God would forgive him and allow him to live" .....then he would NEVER PREACH ANOTHER NEGATIVE SERMON AS LONG AS HE LIVED. Translation: Wierwille's ministry was a how-to ministry.....ie HOW to receive power into manifestation and therefore, the more abundant life. Ugh.....it still amazes me how much I retain of this made-up story. edit///left out word (negative). oops.

Hey, TLC....in case you're still interested, here are a couple more examples. 1978 Emporia and the "little guy" BRC chair-stringing ritual side-stepped

This post is one of brutal honesty. 1) The "Drunk" story was probably the best lesson taught in PFAL 2) I don't care if it was true or not 3) Not sure if it [drunk story] fit with the rest of PFAL 4) who cares? 5) the Drunk story has stayed with me for years 6) I thank you for bringing it to the fore front once again [pfal nostalgia] And, that folks......encapsulates the wierwille/pfal fan club right up there next to the mickey mouse club of yesteryear.

Oh, the memories......David and Ruth were in the band, Agape. Agape "The Fireside Song"

Yep, looks like we're preaching to the choir, Rocky. But....when I invited David and Ruth Th0mas to my parents' home for the holidays it was a gesture of love, concern and giving. They received gifts, love, plenty of food, and a heaping serving of good ole rural America....instead of the stone-cold, empty campus buildings. And, yes.....they slept in and had plenty of privacy.

Okay.....fair enough. But why does it have to be an "ALL or NOTHING tradeoff?....as in full-tilt, gung-ho involvement versus left alone and sleep in and do what you want? Why do "overlords" NOT understand moderation? Why do "overlords" NOT understand space, boundaries or privacy?

Exactly right. Guess I've always leaned on the practical side of life, more than the doctrinal. Probably comes from my upbringing more than about anything else. The farmer in me says......"Show Me the Fruit of My Labor!"

At Emporia Campus, when wierwille came to visit/teach.....the corps coordinators instructed us to line the circle driveway and greet the motorcoach with huge, fanfare adulation. This over-the-top fawning was just one more nail in the mog-doctrine, imo. My in-residence twig was one of two international corps twigs on campus.....one Venezuelan, one Canadian, a married couple from Great Britain, and a New Yorker (and 6 or 7 regular joes) --- and just before Christmas break it was announced that a small staff would stay on campus to assist those "who had NO PLACE TO GO" for Christmas. Why didn't wierwille and his lieutenants charter a small bus, or something, and invite these INTERNATIONAL GUESTS/CORPS to hq rather than leave them abandoned on an empty campus, in an empty cafeteria, during the holidays? Where's this "household love?" Where's the compassion? So....I phoned my parents and we extended a gracious welcome to David & Ruth Th0mas (from UK) to spend eight or nine days with us. My parents bought them presents, were gracious in every way....and my Dad thoroughly enjoyed having guests from Great Britain in his home. I don't know why this bothered me so. It was just ANOTHER example of twi-hypocrisy that I began to see up close my first year in-residence. Truth be told.....I had somewhat pondered NOT RETURNING TO THE CORPS PROGRAM AFTER CHRISTMAS so, this small extension of "looking out for the little guy" [and not myself, by bolting] totally changed the trajectory of my life. .

1978 When I went in-residence corps and heard wierwille spewing his "cop-out doctrine".....ie anyone who left was "copping-out on God." Red flags. Spiritually, I cringed.....and deep down pondered "could wierwille really be this OFF THE WORD?" Was I the only one disturbed by this bullying? Ever since then, for years.....I thought there were enough good wholesome people in twi to expunge the bad, even wierwille doctrine. Yet, year after year....the good left for greener pastures. Having grown up on a wheat farm, I was fully aware that weeds grow in wheat..... but the overwhelming harvest yields thousands of bushels of grain, not weeds. Yet, in twi......the WEEDS overtook the wheat field. A "bad farmer" [ie...trustees] wasn't tending to his fields. The First Red Flag Untoward Secrecy Most Fiery Confrontations Moving Beyond Wierwille

......went south after '85. ???????? TLC...either you're blame-shifting (to protect vpw-legacy) or you need to spend more time reading GSC to connect dots.

No, but lets not diminish it either. Sandra Ann Sullivan

In a nutshell, this is the gnawing question that NEEDS ANSWERING.... The scriptures give multiple examples, parables, similes, teachings, etc. regarding true shepherds vs. hirelings, he that is greatest among you shall be your servant, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ [Acts 15:26], etc. etc...... The question: How can twi and board of directors claim that they are anywhere near godliness, uprightness, or double-honor "ministering" when all they do is pontificate their re-hashed script from hundreds/thousands of miles away for profit and adulation and leisure? Twi DNA is Pharisee DNA. [Matthew 15] Twi DNA is woefully evil. [Jeremiah 23] The unsuspecting are caught in a snare and need to be set free. Guilt, shame and spiritual bullying needs to STOP. THOSE ON THE FIELD: "You pay for the classes, books, events, magazines, tapes, love-offerings, gifts, etc..... and STILL send in your 15% for this "oversight and care." "Yet, you have got to 1)do your job, 2)do the outreach, 3)care for others, 4)teach, preach and run classes, 5)shoulder much responsibility.....AND, 6)PAY OVERLORDS FOR THE PRIVILEGE."

Yeah.....you gotta love someone who stalks you from thread to thread telling you what they've discerned in your heart. lol Even though I exited twi nearly 20 years ago.....I've got this twi-apologist who keeps trying to tell me how to live my life. Rather than an open discussion on the substance and abuse of twi's methods, MRAP offers up labels and trite clichés and misdirection. Nice try, though. Many of us posters are keenly aware of bullying tactics....having run the twi-gauntlet many years ago. We learned our lessons well. The two main purposes of this thread: 1) Expose the overlords, the bullies 2) Show the contrast to "lowly-followers" (who are fleeced) THOSE ON THE FIELD: "Yet, you have got to 1)do your job, 2)do the outreach, 3)care for others, 4)teach, preach and run classes, 5)shoulder much responsibility.....AND, 6)PAY OVERLORDS FOR THE PRIVILEGE." I think the Lord fights for the "little guy".....and I stand with him/her.

Here's another story...... Martindale had instructed the region guys to get out to the limbs and teach.... and be sure to eye-ball all the limb coordinators. The region men were the only ones that martindale and co. seemed to trust after them fog-years. Time and time again, on those corps phone hook-ups.....martindale stressed the need for detail, detail, detail. He specifically taught in length about structuring meetings, the maximum teaching portion being 45-50 minutes for large meetings, framing content around what was being taught at hq, etc. If you teach more than one hour, then your ego was involved. Even at hq, they limit teachings to about 45-50 minutes. Well.....John Rupp came to teach in our state. I couldn't help but be amused as John rambled on and on during our limb meeting. He completely lost track of time with a one hour 25 minute teaching. Shortly after the meeting, I pointed this out to him.....and his face flushed. One of the few times the guy had no response. Priceless. :)/> .

Here's a quick story..... The region coordinator and texas limb coordinators, John and M@rie Rupp came to our state to teach the twig coordinators of our state [1993]. With his impeccable suit and nose in the air.....he walked into the room about 40 minutes before the meeting was to start. The meeting room had all the details covered.....nice setting, carpet, chair alignment, lighting, plants, floral, small table with water glasses, etc. etc. So, John walks in......and flips out!!! Why is the American red rose flower on display? That flower is ONLY used when the twi-president is teaching the meeting. That's what Dr. Wierwille established. Don't you guys know that? Who would be so spiritually inept to NOT know this? Who missed this detail? Don't the corps oversee these things? Needless to say, a wonderful advanced class grad [who specialized in floral design] was deeply hurt and depressed from this frontal attack. It took several weeks of love and support before she wanted to get involved in setup/floral again. Thanks John.....pppfffffftttt. .edit/typo

John Anthony Rupp was, boastfully, a 17th Corps grad [1989].... along with other 17th corps grads like Ed & Jack!e Hor-ny, were going to lead Martindale's charge out-of-the-fog years. They were (cough, cough) specially-trained with that spiritual turbo-boost of sanctified, prevailing, remnant root-tooting, boot-scooting discernment to flush out the weak and unproductive lot that remained in twi.....to get to that "milk and honey" stage. Hey, John.......you were played. :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> .edit/typo

After 22 years [1994], moving from Texas Region coordinator to Trunk Office.... Rupp must finally see that he's just a placeholder on Rosalie's Board of Directors. So, he wants to go and get a real job? After all those years of polishing the top brass? Board of Directors Rev. Rosalie F. Rivenbark, Chairman Rev. Jean-Yves De Lisle Rev. John Rupp

In the ranking of overlords, twi is small ball......but they do exert authority and power over all the others in their neighborhood. And, what a dismal neighborhood it is. Twi-overlords feast at the tables by deceiving others. Their claim is that you NEED them, because they FEED those among you and take oversight to care for you......as they extort and exploit your life and livelihood until you have nothing else to give. You pay for the classes, books, events, magazines, tapes, love-offerings, gifts, etc.....and STILL send in your 15% for this "oversight and care." As months roll into years, and years into decades....the unsuspecting fail to see the ruse. They hold you ACCOUNTABLE for "doing the word" while they, the overlords and hq-staffers, don't have to ("do the word").....just their pigeon-holed job. Easy-peasy -- for them!! Yet, you have got to 1)do your job, 2)do the outreach, 3)care for others, 4)teach, preach and run classes, 5)shoulder much responsibility.....AND, 6)PAY OVERLORDS FOR THE PRIVILEGE. The arrogance wreaks throughout the halls of the OSC. What a religious-ruse the overlords have played on the gullible.

In light of this thread topic, isn't that what staying on topic is all about? :) Now....if we were going to discuss wierwille's "manner of life" towards adultery, drunkenness, etc. there are PLENTY of threads for that.

Okay.....Here is your full paragraph, MRAP: "Plagiarism is a pill hard to swallow when speaking from the Bible, if we quote book, chapter and verse are we excluded of plagiarism? Or is it only plagiarism if some still alive or recently alive person "wrote about it". Think about it, we quote and repeat the words of Jesus and the apostles from the gospels, epistles, proverbs, psalms, etc. without giving credit. I guess then we plagiarise on a consistent basis. Where do you draw the line? Yes, vpw's stuff was not original, did he steal it and if vpw took it from someone else, well, who did that person take it from." So, let me ask you again.... 1) If someone plagiarizes the SAME verses, in the SAME order, highlighting the SAME points, defining the SAME discernment, with SAME Maggie-muggings character, with SAME style and length of class, with SAME type of "listening with a purpose questions, and intends to proceed forth with SAME class-based format as Leonard's class.....is THAT plagiarism? 2) Isn't it the height of plagiarism....when someone, not only steals their class and format, but ALSO the well-known Canadian characterization used in that class? 3) And, then......for this plagiarist [wierwille] to harp to his students to "make it your own" when wierwille himself NEVER did just exposes him as this plagiarist empty suit that he was. 4) Not only was vpw's "stuff" NOT original.......the pfal class was STOLEN outright.

How about when someone plagiarizes another's class? How about when someone plagiarizes the same examples from another's class? How about when someone plagiarizes the same examples from another culture from that class? Maggie Muggins, the Canadian

Yeah......ain't that the truth. Having grown up in a small-town farming community, with helpful neighbors.....NO ONE quibbles about "doctrine." Sheeesh. This whole actions speak louder than words AND, most definitely walking by holy spirit........is why the big-wigs at twi are so plastic, not genuine. Teach, pontificate, teach......repeat.

The primary goal of this thread was to point out the blatant error and premise of wierwille's ministry. When you state that you "don't believe VP had it right"......is that **to punk wierwille** also?? If one holds to account that scripture is "God-breathed" and is profitable for instruction in righteousness, then that should be the focal point not "of Paul" or "of Cephas" or "of Wierwille." Throughout the Greasespot Café you will find posters who no longer hold to the "of Wierwille" doctrine or theology......we've moved on. And some, I might add.....have HEEDED the essence of the apostle Paul's epistle to the Corinthians. So contrary to "dissing Paul".....we've embraced his words to the early church to not "follow after the flesh" [wierwille], but in that which is noble, mighty, wise and glorious. The very essence of Christianity IS set forth. In. The. Scriptures. Wierwille's ministry is an OFFSHOOT of Rev. B.G. Leonard. Why do people think that wierwille had the "original" on anything?

Well......since "the entire first post" is my doing, it looks like I'd better step in and respond to this. Thanks for being candid, TLC: 1) You don't believe that VP had it right 2) You don't believe that Bullinger had it right 3) You don't believe that reformation theology has it right 4) You don't believe that expansion theology [ie Arthur Pink] has it right Got it. Wierwille spent the vast majority of his teachings, pamphlets, retemories, plagiarized books, etc. in the Pauline epistles. He heavily emphasized dispensationalism, wherein the four gospels were "Old Testament...for your learning" in pfal and emphasized it to his grave. Oh, sure....he gave lip-service to Jesus and the anointed Christ, but anyone who sat it hundreds of his teachings and corps/staff meetings knows the thrust of his core beliefs. Heck, if this were the doctrinal forum.....we could delve into I Cor. 1_12-30 and SHOW that the apostle Paul had the SAME PROBLEMS in the early churches.....ie followers wanting to be "of Paul" or "of Apollos" or "of Cephas." Yet, even Paul directs them to Christ Jesus. Sure, you might say....."that's what wierwille did." But many of us are saying......NO, he didn't. I leave you with Rev. Oral Robert's teaching (below). Why was wierwille STILL plagiarizing from other ministers [1978] four years before he retired? [1982] He didn't know Jesus, the Christ, the son of the Living God.