skyrider

Thanks, MRAP. Have a good weekend.

There's nothing more efficient or more practical than......the church pew. * No need for 12-man hours of labor to do set-up EVERY TIME. * No need for people to get off work early to string chairs. * No need to turn off lighting to see well-worn indentations in carpet. * No strings, no squabbling, no hassles, no problems. BUT if you are attempting to establish something counterpoint to the mainstream church, then you enlist a workforce of volunteers who forever are in search of meeting rooms, clubhouse venues, motel boardrooms, park shelters, etc. to gather followers. Heck....if twi wasn't so driven to centralize power and control, they could have easily spent some of those millions and millions to build "small, practical BRCs" in those limb cities...with pews.

Wanted to add..... I don't know about other areas or other classes.....but MANY TIMES we did not abide by twi's rigid rules. I could cite dozens and dozens of times when we thumbed our noses at twi's instructions and mandates. Rigid Rules in the corps program and at HQ....yes! Rigid Rules on the field, by me? Like I've said many times, I was a rebel and should NEVER have gone corps. Not quite sure how I lasted all those years and even one of those deeply despised limb coordinators. More nuance..... Hell.....I've shared how I circumvented stringing chairs in the BRC. Stringing Chairs in the BRC

Well....since Raf invited as much nuance into this dialogue as we want then, especially with corps, the marriage factor weighs heavily into its complexities. We're not dealing with robots here.......but individuals who have passions of interest, change perceptions, evaluate information, grow tired of monotonous boring teachings, stress and strain to pay bills, start a family, get disturbed by cockroach apartments, desire to have a nice home.....and begin to unravel the seedy side of wierwille, sexual predation, abortions, psycho geer's paranoia, martindale's lawsuits, and that some of their region coordinators knew about these secret lockbox shenanigans. Most here all know how twi taught marriage concepts: husband and wife responsibilities. The husband is to lead, the wife is to submit.......otherwise, it's whacked and off. So.....[specifically corps]...their whole world comes crashing to a halt if one or the other wants to exit twi. Everything ties back to the corporation: corps status, goals, involvement, relationships, etc......because its a cult, a "closed society." One could say that even marriage is a victim of this oppression. What if the wife wants to exit, but the husband doesn't? What if the husband wants to exit, but the wife isn't ready? What if either husband/or wife have in-laws involved in twi and add oppressive measures? What if either husband/or wife have in-laws that keep telling them twi is a cult? Does an 18 years person NEED to stay committed to twi for a lifetime....from prez #1, prez #2, prez #3 and doctrines of lesbians in the Garden of Eden? You will never be able to wrap your arms around all these nuances if the focus is on the individuals NO MATTER WHAT THEIR TITLE, LEVEL OR LENGTH OF INVOLVEMENT who were caught in the scam....to pinpoint any degree of victims/oppressors. You have to go back to wierwille, the founder, and its "foundation." How's THAT for nuance?

Yes....."it's far more complicated than the question allows." The opening premise of this thread details corps as victims/oppressors...... but, in my opinion, falls far short of detailing "the epitome of twi's oppression" in your two choices [opening post]. Some Examples: 1) I've seen obnoxious twig coordinators, advanced class grads, staffers.....who were NOT corps. 2) Some interim corps got tired or disgusted with twi leadership and left to pursue other things. 3) After corps graduation, a percentage of corps grads EXITED TWI.....never to return. 4) Twi had built a system of "follow the leader to please God" at every level. 5) In October 2000, I ran across an advanced class grad who was a loyal, obnoxious, sell-out to Rosalie's "kinder/gentler" twi......and he was "standing for God" because corps were quitting. At every level.....the scam was perpetuated. At every level.....the scam was oppressive.

Time and time again, this topic of responsibility and one's intentions resurfaces. Another thread, Social Pressures in Twi delved into experiencing subliminal pressure by twig coordinators to follow the leader. Yes, it's complicated. Personally, I do NOT feel any measure of guilt......some embarrassment maybe, but not guilt. I was young and naïve and, seemingly, this "movement to love God and help others" morphed into a quasi-legalistic juggernaut of psychological complexities. To me, my initial involvement was to learn more scripture and. in-between college classes and bar hopping with my roommates, spent some time with these wow ambassadors. Quite frankly, I thought pfal was a decent class, but didn't put wierwille on some high pedestal. With incremental steps of involvement, I was slowly closing doors of my former life......college classes, roommates, and educational goals. Several things happened....answers to prayer, etc.....and my heart was dedicated to help others. No biggie, just small measures of giving. Once entitled with authority [big whoop, right? lol].......did that change one's character and heart to serve or be served? Each person, no matter their title, stood at the crossroads of exhibiting their character and motive before God.......or before twi's hierarchy of "elders." To me, THAT is crux of the matter that defines whether there should be any guilt associated in this. Sure, hindsight is 20/20......and we all would change past twi-involvement if we could, but I believe the scriptures that the Lord looks on the heart. And, with that, I can live with my past involvement. I was a victim of a scam. I fell prey to perpetrating a scam. Was this scam oppressive? Yes, it was. .

MRAP.....there you go again: 1)lump assumptions and 2)low reading comprehension. My response to Raf's question.......Post #2 "After some 7,000 posts on Waydale and GSC to expose the wierwille mystique, I would have to cast my lot that the corps were victims." The reason I answered "corps were VICTIMS"........was because Raf put QUALIFIERS in his two choices: 1)Corps as the epitome of TWI's victims or 2)the epitome of what made TWI oppressive in the first place. To me, the QUALIFIERS made all the difference in my answer. I guess it might depend on how one viewed Raf's qualifier "in the first place." To me, wierwille was THE FIRST PLACE where oppressive measures were derived....... wierwille was the oppressor and the corps, like others programs and measures, were victims in this cult. As twi grew, the victims could, in turn, oppress others in this dark caste system. .

Yep...... Now, we are approaching critical thinking liftoff.

The Game of Incrementalism

Well....if nuance [shades of difference] is the point, then..... 1) What about corps spouse? Not really corps, but association by marriage......were they victims/oppressors? 2) What about advanced class grads? Did they take the opportunity to leverage and oppress others? 3) What about fellow laborers? Marching orders to conform and oppress others around them? 4) What about college division? Did the stuff they learned at Emporia oppress and ensnare? 5) What about pfal grads? Did they go home at Christmas and browbeat their parents and siblings? How much nuance do you want in this dialogue?

Posted in Washington Examiner: Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: - Knowing when to come in out of the rain; - Why the early bird gets the worm; - Life isn't always fair; - And maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies, don't spend more than you can earn and adults, not children, are in charge. His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion, his daughter Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers - I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on.

Most people are sheeple......simply following the designated one in front of them. No wonder the scriptures makes references and analogies to sheep and shepherds. Growing up on the farm, we had nearly 600 sheep for about three years. Compared to horses, heifers, pigs, or chickens.....sheep are the dumbest. They need constant care, oversight and protection from themselves. Many a times, in the far pasture....we'd find a dead sheep for little apparent reason. Just seems that when people are LED ASTRAY.......very few have enough gumption to stop the idealized pathway, consider the landscape, and change the trajectory of their lives. The easy way is to "go along to get along" with self-appointed authority. They just don't see the WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING.

Yeah.....that analogy works. Or.....the yak analogy wherein the young and feeble are inside the circle while the old bull yaks face their horns outward to thwart off attacks. Problem is.......all the "weak in the middle" see is a bunch of a$$es.

Yeah, sure....I can concede your point. BUT.....this is now 2016. So, when MRAP continues to go from thread to thread on his disdain for corps, I'm simply trying to get him to connect the dots. It's not really that hard, is it? We're no longer in the "dark ages" of 1976. The internet is here. Sure, individuals still have free will.....but try this hypothesis: 1) If an incompetent doctor botches a surgery.......are all doctors bad? 2) If a police officer covers up a crime...........are all police officers corrupt? 3) If a dog kennel owner hits a savage dog..........are all kennel owners mean to dogs? In my first semester in college, I took Sociology 101. One of the first lessons was "Avoid Stereotyping Everyone into One Category." Individuals are way more intricate, diversified and complex than lump assumptions. .

Too funny. Now, you are co-opting the language that many have ascribed to wierwille. Good try, though. There are dozens and dozens of threads on this forum that unravel the "mystique of wierwille" ........plagiarism, stolen class, left church payroll in 1957, India lies, pfal blunders, maggie muggins theft, subliminal stories, sexual predation, drunkenness, arrogance, etc. The man has been exposed in all his naked glory. You are becoming a one-trick pony, MRAP.......attacking the character of way corps. Yeah, you've detailed a 40-year old account of your experiences with a 5th corps dude.... and how that caused disruption to your wedding day. Okay? What else? How many corps do you actually know? Three? Five? Ten? Why do you insist on viewing the outcome [corps person] rather than the source [wierwille] of the problem. Is that what the military would do? Surely, the military would do an investigation and get to the source of the problem to correct it, no? Is every military person a Bergdahl? .

And....con men. Wierwille invented the hook shot.

The elitists want you to STOP. Down thru the years, several websites arose that had a COMMENTS SECTION. Even twi, by J0hn Br0wn in Florida, had a website [short-lived] that opened up some dialogue. But once the WayGB, the enforcers of censorship, got wind of it .....poof! it disappeared. For a short time, CES had this open-dialogue comment section. Poof!....gone again. And, a poster tells us that a long-standing wayfer has A FACEBOOK DECLARATION on his wallpaper to NOT engage in any dialogue with anyone opposed to wierwille doctrine? Well ain't that just dandy.....TO SHUT DOWN OPPOSING VIEWS AND CENSOR CRITICAL THOUGHT. So much for that "on-going RE-search process" that drew others in. One of the first rules one learned when introduced to twi was.....hold your questions in abeyance, because the pfal class will answer them. Then, as you sat in pfal....if a question was raised [privately] to the one who was "undershepherding" you thru the class, again the same canned response: wait until the class is finished....it all will make sense. How convenient to herd the unsuspecting into this canyon.....and establish a corral of censorship throughout their days. Seems like, if they cannot win the argument, then contain the dissent. Or.....resort to silence. .

Yep...."the lucky ones" slipped away early. Generally speaking, one needs to step back and view the NUMBERS OF CORPS GRADS EACH YEAR. By adding the numbers of regular AND family corps grads, one could get a perspective of just how quickly these numbers added up....especially on the bullying side. From 6th corps to 15th corps = 300 corps grads per year Family Corps grads = 100 per year [approximate] Added together = 400 Apply the 80-20 rule [80% good versus 20% groomed to bully] and you can easily see that "80 yes-men" added per year as "leadership." The brown-nosers became the top lieutenants in wierwille's command. It didn't take but about 8 years for the tail to wag the dog.

Yes.....skilled people in all walks of life that had entered the Corps. But, apparently......wierwille had a unique selection process for GROOMING his "choice of leader" that would be inflicted upon us. Just look at who wierwille pushed upon us, Martindale and Geer .....what skills did THEY have? NONE except sold-out yes-men who would do wierwille's bidding. Say all you want about the way corps.....but WIERWILLE greased the rails for bullying ilk to rise in this manipulative cult. The subliminal messaging was staring all of us in the face! Wierwille advanced the men who had the same stripes as wierwille. Within a few short years, the "talented and skilled" corps discerned the ugly game that wierwille was playing.......and good, solid corps went back to their skills, professions and communities. The unspoken rule was If you can't say anything nice about wierwille, keep your mouth shut.

Excellent point, krys. For me, this is what I saw: 1) Just before in-rez, I was a branch coord at adv class.....and vpw was seething over three 8th corps guys research 2) The initial 6 weeks were MORE pfal rehash.....really??? 3) On corps nights, early on.....wierwille started calling out "cop-outs" who left twi 4) Corps coordinators pushed this unbridled adulation of wierwille.....ugh. 5) Regimented scheduling, very little private time......20 men in bedroom [Owens Hall] 6) Roll calls at each meeting.....monitoring that every corps is present 7) Got a not-so-subtle reprimand for spending time with a College Division girl What???? College Division is sub-par??? Why the caste system? The pecking order? Many times, I had to fight back thoughts of just getting in my car and driving away.

Or....on the offshoot payroll? Protecting vpw-soap brand no doubt.

Yeah.....we've heard that many times here at GSC. It truly is amazing how many people have MOVED ON......who'd posted on GSC. Take a look at those many rants from posters on those old threads on pages 95-143 who got badly burned by twi. Lots of those posters were corps and staff with stories of hurt, abuse, mistrust, betrayal, disappointment, etc. Twi just wasn't what it purported to be.

Twinky......thanks.

Well......if I landed from Mars and started reading GSC yesterday, then maybe, I would fluctuate between the two polar extremes. BUT.....as a young follower caught up in the machinery of twi ........and a class-based system that didn't allow questions ........and scriptures that were cherry-picked for the season ........and wierwille's entourage and motorcoach fanfare ........and twig-manifestations to exhibit you bought the product ........and the multi-level marketing ploy of selling soap ........and the withholding of information [i.e. = fraud] ........and use of intimidation, manipulation & exploitation After some 7,000 posts on Waydale and GSC to expose the wierwille mystique, I would have to cast my lot that the corps were victims. But hey, what do I know? Disclaimer: I was a corps grad.

Nope. He stayed longer than he wanted....at their request, to help thru transition points.