skyrider

igotout, From a "field" perspective......I think your point is valid. The auditorium is NOT a need anymore....maybe, it never was. But, it did seem to be more attractive back in the 80s...... when there were many productions, many singing groups, orchestra involvement, Ambassador One flights to bring in guests, annual ROA, etc. etc. From a "staff" position........the auditorium is a cornerstone of their arrogance and centralization. It probably has more symbolism than practicality. And, promoted as a stage for "the Word"..... it is a cash cow that will not be sold anytime soon. Why should they? They have millions in assets and various accounts...... and the 250-mile mandate keeps guilt-ridden followers visiting once a month or more. When twi boasts "come and see".......what are they saying?? Come and see our auditorium?? our manicured lawns?? our friendly smiles?? our corporate image?? "Come and see" in the scriptures had a far different connotation! Obviously!!!! :D-->

TheHighWay, Yeah, lots of butt-numbing memories. :D--> They sure made me feel "welcome at the way"........telling me NOT to come early to visit friends and former co-workers, ushering me to a seat 20 minutes early, hearing yet another Branded song for the 500th time, and coaxing me out the door as quick as possible. And the sendoff......"Glad you came. See you next week. God bless." Yeah, right.... .....the life of the ministry is at the root.....NOT

Whoever designed twi's auditorium failed to take into account one important detail.......extended meetings with FORBIDDEN bathroom breaks will generate loooooong lines outside the mens' and women' facilities. Geeze.......who did the math on this????? Here's what it looked like from the men standpoint.....three urinals and two toilets in each bathroom, 2 mens' bathrooms on the 2nd floor and 2 on the 1st floor. Generally, one bathroom was conficated to help the women. Without getting more specific on the "duties" performed and the length of time to do it........on major events when the auditorium was filled with 1,440 attendees, it took awhile for some 700 men to stand in line and use the bathroom!!! Then.....you had to STAND IN LINE at the concession counter. And, after all that....and a 4-minute break, it was time to be herded back to your seat!! Uuuuuuuuggggggghhhhh. -->

Wayfer Not!.....Absolutely! If the first 5 or 6 rows could be filled with 'visitors'....THEN the hq staff would be able to cover enough for the camera angles. Staffers got to hang in the foyer and slip into their seats at the last minute....the traveling 'visitors' were herded up front 20 minutes before it started. MORE SITTING...UUUUGH.

o&a, As far as I know.....the mandate STILL is in place. It is 'acceptable' though to travel ONCE a month and keep that special membership card. Yep.....un friggin believable. Some things never change. :D-->

Now THAT is something I can really relate to.........thanks Hope! :)--> skyrider

outandabout.....yep, apparently the top leadership got out a map and started doing some figuring. Wouldn't surprise me if they toyed and quarreled with the mileage abit...before establishing the 250-mile radius mandate! Heck, at 60-65 mph average....it would ONLY be a 4-hour drive to hq (one way). Add in the carpooling factor, proper clothing attire, kids, food, stops.....and 2 1/2 hours minimum at hq.... YOU COULD BE HOME AND TUCK THE KIDS IN BED BEFORE MIDNIGHT. No wonder the sunday service was moved from 5pm back to 3pm !!! :P--> Nothing like spending 9 HOURS in a car..... and 2 hours in a chair to hear a teaching that you'll get in the mail a few days later. I knew several couples who MOVED AWAY FROM HQ to avoid the insanity mandate!!! :D--> :D-->

Although there was extra pomp and ceremony on that day.....one of vpw's comments after lunch sticks with me, 20 years later. In a candid remark, the gist of it being...."It's not significant that this auditorium is filled and overflowing today, but rather year after year will the people keep coming for the Sunday services?" At that time, in March of 1985, I was one who steeled my commitment so that "the Word" would live! Yes, in my eyes if Dr. Wierwille wanted this Word Over the World Auditorium filled, then I would work towards that end. After all, twi was centralizing its efforts on formatted video classes, five corps training locations,.....and NOW this new Teaching Platform that seated 1,440 with overflow locations in the OSC lunchroom during major events. Seemingly, the centralization of twi was "impacting tens of thousands" and twi was moving full-speed ahead........I couldn't have been more wrong! What was hidden from my waybrain view....would someday crystallize my perception of twi and illustrate CULT-LIKE CENTRALIZATION AND AGENDAS WERE BEDROCK DOCTRINES IN WIERWILLE'S WAYWORLD. The "spiritual grandeur" of the auditorium was short-lived. Just two months later, and twi stopped to bury their founder in the Garden of Living Waters. Add some leadership rivalry, a pompous paper, a jock mentality, some sane people getting out of Dodge.......and the rest is history, as they say. The last time I stepped foot in the Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium....... whew, that's a mouthful....was back in 1995. I think it was renamed in 1996 or so. But during this ROA, it was used for some teachings, a few showings of the Athlete Jock and some scheduled tours. To me, the significance of this building was dissipating like the morning dew. It was just another auditorium. Finally, by 1995.....my eyes were opening!!! I started to question the spiritual significance of CENTRALIZATION. Heck......the only way twi was half-filling the auditorium was by edicting a 250-mile radius participation!! Why the mandatory dictate?? Besides, that abundant sharing could have been used in hundreds of BETTER WAYS!!! My silent rebellion had begun. I grew to detest the centralization....the pomp every Sunday service.... the weekly corps hook-ups.... it reeked of indoctrination and thought reform. I detested the calloused approach of lcm on those corps teachings and the slandering of my corps brethren!!! No longer could I stomach martindale's manufacturing of processed corps-food..... or the system that supported him! And, all of this putrid spewing emanated from twi's auditorium. In ten years, I had grown to despise the centralization, the system, the auditorium. Those years (1985-1995) were merely the beginnings of what I would later come to learn here at GS. A few short years later, I exited twi never to return. And now, ten more years have passed. Understandably, twi will try to reintroduce the pomp and ceremony for this 20th Anniversary of the auditorium....... but its all show and little substance!! Been there! Done that! :P-->

Linda.....yeah, revision after revision! :)--> What year was Earl's class, anyways? 1980? ...1982?...or thereabouts? And, it did set off lots of questions and concerns about "doing it right." Which again raises OTHER QUESTIONS about this whole area of interpretation of tongues & prophecy in a believers meeting for exhortation and comfort. Could it be that there were different versions of "right doctrine" amongst wierwille's top leaders....like Earl, Craig, Vince, Johnnie, JAL, & Cgeer? Why was Earl selected? Anybody know? After 1989 (and Earl Bxrtxn had left twi).....the old tapes of vpw were reintroduced until WAP swallowed up the old wineskins.

As wierwille centralized twi....and moved further from its origins of Leonard, Stiles, and Bullinger....the leavening process continued. The corps program had 5 corps objectives: 1) Acquire an indepth spiritual perception and awareness. 2) Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others. 3) Physical......making your body the vehicle of commmunication.... 4) Practice believing ......(financial abundance to you & ministry) 5) Go forth as leaders...... (and go where twi sends you!) These five corps objectives were ideas and concepts of wierwille. Seemingly harmless at first..... these objectives are leavened with ONE DOMINANT INGREDIENT......CENTRALIZATION OF POWER. How do you acquire???........you listen to wierwille !! How to you receive???........you submit to wierwille !! How to be vital???...........you go in the corps!!! How to practice believing....you follow the teachings!!! How to go forth???...........you go where twi sends you !!! If you start a long journey ....and from the onset, you're off say 2 degrees.....the LONGER YOU JOURNEY.....THE FARTHER OFF COURSE YOU'LL END UP. It's a mathmatical law. :)-->

First of all.....twi is an OFFSHOOT of BG Leonard's ministry. In 1953, after sitting thru Rev. Leonard's holy spirit class TWICE.....wierwille rushed back to Ohio and ran a carbon-copy of the class, without any syllabus or materials, three months later. In Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, the accounts are vivid and illustrate that young vpw was thrilled by the work of Leonard.....and later, devoured the works of Stiles, Bullinger, and others. Secondly, here is a definition of offshoot....n. anything that branches off, or derives from a main source; specif., a shoot or stem growing laterally from the main stem of a plant. I agree, Hope.....if the "roads and highways" all traveled back to OFFSHOOT CENTRAL HEADQUARTERS, then it mattered little if the terminology, or definitions, were identical to twi. What mattered was 1) the OUTFLOW SHIPPING OF TEACHING TAPES to stage an appearance of central authority..... and, 2) the INHOUSE STRUCTURE OF RECOGNIZED LEADERSHIP to stage a dominant/recessive relationship..... and 3) the BENEVOLENT APPEARANCE OF GODLINESS to stage a centralization to receive MONEY. I tend to think that the whole way tree structure was flawed from the beginning. Even the wierwillian structure, the way tree, that was on its logo and painted on the OSC building..... is a conceptualized error. Wierwille conceived its tree-structue....and Townsend later taught The Way Tree class. Why didn't wierwille structure twi in line with the scriptures??? in line with the One Body???..... in line with eyes, ears, feet, members in particular??? Could it be that a true biblical analogy of Christ as the head was too much to mask??? a way tree fit with veepee's rural upbringing and agendas??? And still today...."offshoots" fit with the wierwillian doctrine.

Well.....if we are talking "originally designed".....I'd have much preferred B.G. Leonard's class on receiving holy spirit and then, given a suggested reading list of books like JE Stiles' and EW Bullinger's works.

Galen......hmmmmm, Of the 3,200 corps.....and you've "read here there were hundreds"......say 640 ?? Hypothetically, in following a ratio...... then 20% of the corps were "corps-nazis" Then 80% of the corps were NOT "corps-nazis" ;)--> And, if you "never interfaced" with even 1%..... then 6 corps people "got in your face" ?? So, tell us again.....why your message of corps-bashing is repeated over and over??? You paint about 2,560 people with the same brush with such generalized statements??? ???????????

Looks like lindyhopper's post...that immediately followed your post mdvaden.... made an attempt to clarify this as well. ;)-->

Thanks to Pxul Allxn......and Waydale......and the Allen vs TWI lawuit that initiated and finalized the OUSTING OF TWI EVIL PERPETRATOR. Yep, you can thank Paul and lots of others here. No....you don't need to send a special "thank you" card. Just a simple acknowledgement will do. ;)-->

mdvaden........just to clarify a bit, you are intermixing two different classifications here: 1) VPW's list of 16 keys to walking by the spirit.....i.e. "keys" to apply in situations of receiving revelation and/or imparting specific God-given knowledge (via word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits) to a unique and exclusive incident. 2) Christian principles and/or human benevolence in response to gracious living. People of other faiths are guided with similar lists of kindness and ediquette......i.e. soft answer turns away wrath, be kind to one another, love uplifts, etc. Of course, many here at GS are aware that these "16 keys" were never intended to be the final and complete list of these "advanced" keys......vpw & lcm noted this in later years. The point of them in this discussion was to illustrate ANOTHER indoctrinational tool......where the student is required to memorize this list and recite it back in release sessions. Reciting definitions and lists of keys is FAR DIFFERENT than having open and honest dialogue during those "release sessions." In actuality, those afternoon twigs were unsuspectingly framed in an agenda of manipulation and indoctrination. Think about it. :)-->

mdvaden, Aww yes.....the ezekiel account taught in martindale's advanced class. The Lord showed ezekiel the abomination and idols of the house of Israel, etc........and the Lord was provoked to anger. Yet, you remain associated with an abusive organization that "angers the Lord" with adulterous and idolatrous activity??? Yes........from your limited and insulated twi experiences, you haven't seen "behind the doors of twi's corruption." But then, as you continue to come to this open forum........YOU ARE STEPPING FORWARD TO SEE MORE. ;)--> mdvaden, I commend you for coming to GS.....really I do. As you engage in open dialogue......and not just quoting OT records.....insight and understanding will fill your heart and life. Peace and blessings.

i think he was the 3-star general......wasn't he? :D-->

Galen.....like so many other things in twi, it has a 'yes' AND 'no' answer. Yes, some of those themes were simple and/or scripture-based......i.e. Speaking the Truth in Love or Living Sanctified or Living Victoriously or Walking in God's Power. Highlighted verses generally accompanied these themes and were heralded forth at the ROA. No, some of the themes were subtle indoctrinational tools for twi doctrine.....i.e. Reaching the World with The Word or The Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. In twi fashion, the Word as perceived and taught and applied by twi.......all other groups and church activity that taught these same verses were counterfeiting God's true intent. From my experiences....by 1984, I cannot recall twi leadership giving ANY CREDIT to any other Christian church or group that was spreading the gospel of deliverance. If twi wasn't in the spotlight as the "true deliverer"......then one should be very suspicious and keep his eyes open for devil spirits and seed of serpent men. Themes could be used in a good way or a bad way depending on one's intent and agendas. It really doesn't matter if a theme is scripture-based.... in a cult environment. And, really....we were WARNED....O Foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you........ Are ye so foolish? having bgun in the Spirit? are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [Gal. 3:1,4] In twi, our EYES WERE DIVERTED FROM FOCUSING ON JESUS CHRIST....his life, his work, his seated at the right hand and being the head of the One Body. Shame on twi's bod and their subtle agendas!!! And no, Galen.....I don't think you are "goofy"......maybe a little naive, but not "goofy." ;)-->

Belle.....ROFL :D--> :D--> :D--> That was good. Thanks!!!!

Galen.......yeah, I would agree with that. Year after year, the Advanced Class changed! Back in the 70s, there were LOTS of tapes on various healings, deliverance stories, non-twi ministers who had cast out devil spirits, etc. BUT....AS ALWAYS....by 1979 or thereabouts, the class agenda kept circling the wagons closer and closer to twi. By the mid-80s, lcm was teaching his stuff on seed of the serpent and illustrating how EVERY DENOMINATION was headed up by seed men!!! The twi-indoctrination was OBVIOUS.....and many of us would show the advanced class grads in our areas the OLD SYLLABUS and REVIEW OLDER MATERIAL. I know that I wasn't the ONLY grad out there who tried to stop the LEAVENING PROCESS. With every new year, craig's & don's & howard's egotistical ramblings were spilling out all over the place. I couldn't stomach ROA anymore! I couldn't stand the big meetings! Being FAR AWAY FROM HQ was the best place to be!!! By the late 80s and early 90s.....the advanced classes were an all-out assault on promoting the corps program!!!!!!! :D--> :D--> :D-->

mdvaden.....from your limited and insulated twi experiences, I'm wondering if Lowly Lollypop attends your local fellowships? She (or he?) posts here occasionally too. But in some of her last posts, she seemed taken back and disturbed that her friend, a twi ordained minister, was being prosecuted for sexual abuse. Haven't seen her since. And for the record......I've sat in almost 20 years of corps meetings. Does THAT count??? :D--> :D-->

One is the loneliest number.

Belle.....so true! By the time one reached the Advanced Class, the indoctrination was FAR MORE than just the teachings. Under the guise of helping us to be better equipped....twi was re-educating our attitudes on protocol, on denominational seed men, on submitting our conscience to selected retemories....etc. etc. Imagine NOW...going to a corporate seminar or "class" and be treated like this???? Obviously, the indoctrination process is highly effective when variables are controlled and isolating the individual over a period of time. Respectfully, I see why pfal-apologists rarily post on threads like this.....even though twi promoted pfal as a SERIES. Remember?? a believer is NOT complete until being instructed in all nine of the manifestations?? Teaching....peer pressure....atmosphere....isolation....not questioning authority....a calculating indoctrination. And, I remind myself that wierwille was 58 years old or so when the Advanced Class was filmed in 1975. He knew how the manipulate and indoctrinate the youth !!!

O&A.....yeah, 16 keys. We had to memorize those as well.