skyrider

not every LC............but alot of them. lots of corps & clergy kept exiting.......especially after 1994.

rhino, the only name that I can pull up from what you said...........Ross Tr@cy can't think of any others

Not only the five gift ministries [Eph. 4:11]......but helps and governments (organizational abilities) as noted in I Corinthians 12:28. Many from the 6th - 10th corps could be categorized into the latter group, helps & government. With the rapid growth in twi from 1977-1984, those organizational longsuits were in high demand. From my experience, there were clergy who exhibited good & bad all along the spectrum.......some of the finest, some of the most arrogant. Around 350 to 400 twi clergy before the exodus. Like any group, just too much diversity to make any bland statements. IMO, among the finest........Lonnxll Johnsxn, 5th corps. IMO, among the worst........Cgeer, 7th corps.

apostle.

Hmmmmm......how to answer THAT..?? As the OT illustrates it.............twi's lamp has gone out. Of course, one could argue that the lamp NEVER got turned on. Even in rivenbark's era, twi is being promoted as a "kinder, gentler ministry." Kinda sounds like a nursing home slogan........rather than group that proclaims to walk with all nine manifestations. <_<

Oak.....very well said. Just another area in the pfal-series that had a few holes in it.

Linda....I agree. In starting this thread, I qualified one of my points in saying......"This slogan.....all nine all the time..... although a catchy phrase is a falsehood. First of all, even in wierwille's advanced class teachings where he handles the revelation and impartation manifestations, wierwille adamantly states that its God's perogative to give or not give them. So logically, if AT TIMES God withholds revelation....then it can't be "all nine all the time." In other words......when God chooses not to REVEAL CERTAIN INFORMATION, then one must walk spiritually to the best of their ability.....thus "all nine all the time" is a falsehood. For example, in the Book of Acts, there are accounts where the Apostle Paul travels around and, at times, is "waiting on the Lord" for His direction, His specifics, His revelation. The connotation of "all the time" is subservient to God's perogative to give certain revelation. But no........I wasn't commenting on operating all nine all at once. That IS silly.

And, it wasn't just the guns. In 1982, prior to Living Victoriously......I spent time with this Family Corps guy who had been in the military, munitions expert-type guy. Anyways, he told me that everyday he crawled around under the main stage in the big top tent CHECKING FOR BOMBS. I'm not making this up....!!!! This guy was assigned to check for any time of device that could be detonated and kill wierwille while he was on main stage. At the time, I was stunned.......and thought, I'd better wise up and keep sharp.

Chas.....thanks for sharing your perspective. Around 1996.....when craiggers was sharing some of this "new and improved" foundational class to us on those corps teachings, he was very excited about moving the SIT session (#12 in pfal) to the 10th session (in WAP). As I remember it, the bod felt it was a good move NOT to end the class on a SIT note (my paraphrase of what craig said). Once again........the bod sat in their "ivory tower" and made these decisions. They NEVER asked the corps or class coordinators for their imput or suggestions. Guess us little minions didn't know how to think...... just obey the mogfarts. Uuuuuugh

This topic, All Nine All the Time, deserves its own thread. Linda and Belle were talking about this vpw teaching on the "A Non-manipulated Foundational Class" thread. And, Linda stated, "I no longer believe in the 'all nine all the time' that VPW promoted. That approach led to so many failures in 'ministering' of healing, and to cookie-cutter tongues, interp. and prophecy, etc. I now believe different people have different longsuits, spiritually, and to force them all into the same mold only sets them up for self-doubt and disappointment." This slogan.....all nine all the time.....although a catchy phrase, is a falsehood. First of all, even in vpw's advanced class teachings where he handles the revelation and impartation manifestations, wierwille adamantly states that its God's perogative to give or not give them. So logically, if at times God withholds revelation.....then it can't be "all nine all the time." For the record, I liked lots of the information that I learned in twi's advanced class.......it's just not "God-breathed" that's all. :) I take to task with those who promote wierwille and his classes as "God would teach him like it hadn't been known since the first century if he would teach it to others"......or the MOGFOT crap. Wierwille taught some good things, some bad. Some things were simple, some things were contradictory. All nine all the time.................is one of those contradictory issues that vpw promoted.

CW.......nice synopsis. I agree. :)

IMO, twi did NOT prove you could have church in the home blah, blah, blah. It was the steady march of the pfal class, add the hype, the youth, the word-of-mouth campaign,......and you get about 35,000 - 40,000 faithful and attendance at the Rock of Ages hits an all-time high of around 24,000 (in 1984). As far as "church in the home".............my grandparents HAD church in the home back in the 1920s. IMO, way too much credit is given to twi, at times.

Moony........exactly! That's my point in starting this thread. I've seen this.........on a number of occasions. When someone is coerced in Session 12 to SIT.........it seems like an "ambush." There probably are a number of reasons that could be listed, but the point is..... the person is NOT ready or willing to venture into SIT at that point! Then, with the crowd watching and performance pressure mounting......and vp's words "no one gets missed!" glaring in your face.....it's a rather frightening and confusing time for some. I believe that [/b]a non-manipulated foundational class.....with just basic truths taught would be the better approach. THEN.......have a follow-up class for those who desire to advance into the manifestation area.

WW.......some good points added here. "B) It ites SIT to pfal-and to twi.".........THE class was a one-stop, do-it-all. As the years rolled by, leadership instructed us to remove ourselves from the equation and just let "da class" do it.

Radar posted the gun incident......on April 23, 1986. I attended the May 1986 clergy/leadership meeting......the second meeting. No, I did not attend the November meeting.....the third meeting. Therefore, I didn't see the gun incident.

Forgive me for dipping in and out of this thread. But.......all this talk about TWO meetings and, at one of the meetings (the April meeting) CG brought a gun into the auditorium. There STILL is some confusion in all this. Note: Post #18 on this thread......Radar's response to my earlier post: I was in attendance at the May 1986 clergy meeting, but not the other two. As I count them.................there were THREE meetings and from Radar's account I presume that CG brought his gun into the auditorium at this first [April] meeting. But specifically.............there were only TWO CLERGY MEETINGS (and the title of this thread is "The famous clergy meeting"). Clear as mud, right?????????????????

I always chuckle at these "offshoot" discussions. To me, it's like saying..............The Way Tree was the original and any and all who exited twi are "offshoots." Twi was an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's ministry. Mrs. W's book spells it out plainly....after veepee returned from B.G's classes, twi was shortly thereafter incorporated in 1953. So..........was twi successful as an offshoot...??? Hmmmmmmmm.

I would venture to say that I sat thru pfal about 25-28 times......maybe more. Some early classes had 12-15 students and later classes in the early 80s had 7-10 students. Lots of people, okay. Generally, after a couple of months........only two or three pfal grads would stick with twi. Most would just drift away. And, on a few occasions I would have someone who would tell me to my face that they didn't swallow the SIT-stuff from the class. Like it was fabricated jibberish, or something. And, I did know of a few people who didn't like to be cornered, or coerced. But then......maybe I was too fanatical with da class.

Galen......yeah, your points are well taken. To wierwille and his quest for tapping this spiritual power, the SIT part was the crescendo.......the icing on the cake sorta speak. But honestly, in the back of my mind.........whenever vpw did SIT for the audience, it ALWAYS seemed to be like the same......Lo Shanta Mala Kaseto Lo Shanta. Even at PFAL '77 or during my inrez years...... after ALL THOSE YEARS......wierwille's SIT sounded the same. Of course, that's a whole new topic, isn't it?? Oak.....thanks for the input. Yeah, those 1/2 hours segments were dropped from the original version. It helped to streamline a few things and slow down the questions. :)

On another thread, the topic of "walking into an ambush" was posed..........and it got me to thinking how PFAL, in some ways, was like that. In pfal.........the green card commitment promised MANY things. In pfal.........foundational biblical truths were to be set forth. In pfal.........session after session built upon one another. In pfal.........all questions were to be answered at the end of the class. In pfal.........lots of information, and manipulation, were inter-meshed. In pfal.........the 12th session, the SIT exclamation point, was waiting...!!! When veepee filmed pfal, it consisted of 15 sessions...... the intermediate class stuff and the day Jesus Christ died section were REMOVED from the foundational equation. It didn't work. It was "too much" for the students. Anyone with more knowledge on this........please chime in. As I look back at the pfal hype and manipulation, I believe that it would have been more honest and spirituallly upfront to have a non-manipulated foundation class. In other words, have a class with say, 10 sessions and set those "worship manifestations" into a whole 'nother class......but be HONEST about it. I mean.....when I think about it, WHY the coercion, and hype and "ambush" in session 12..??? In all my many years of running pfal, there were MANY STUDENTS WHO SPLIT OUT AFTER THE CLASS and refused to come to another twig fellowship. Why???????????????? Heck, it took wierwille YEARS to come to the point where he desired to speak in tongues. What gave him the "right" to manipulate Christian babes and push them where they weren't ready to go. Just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts???? :)

Gee..........looking back.. Makes we wonder if THAT'S the reason why so many of those we witnessed to (especially the older folks) decided NOT to take pfal. Didn't want to be "walking into an ambush".........????? A class.........from a obscure little outfit in ohio. A class.........where all your questions will be answered. A class.........that if you're five minutes late, they kick you out. A class.........totally regimented. A class.........where SIT is an ambush in waiting. But hey........I could be wrong on this.

David.....your analogy communicates to me. Thanks. :) Like so many other discussions here on GS.....too much ambiguity leads to miscommunication. So often, many of us are in agreement on certain points. But yes........pfal had some good, some bad. ....and some really UGLY distorted concepts that were very distructive. But one has to travel down those roads for many years to see how FAR they've veered from God's heart, His truth. "Good versus bad" hardly qualify to describe the journey that each one of us have taken since signing the green card. <_<

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.............of corps food. The sunday "sack suppers" were good. Plenty of stuff to eat, to swap, and to save for another time. Plus, some of the girls would give us hungry guys their food. Thank you corps girls. :) The scrambled eggs were bad. Not because of the eggs themselves, but the shells added a crunch that I really detested. Who was throwing those shells into the mix anyway?? But, in great contrast, was the uuuugly..........the wheat berries, fig pep breakfast. Just not the way to start one's day.

Yeah.......and to think, that there were plenty of others alot CLOSER. The inner circle, the twi accountants, twi's legal guy at hq, the bodyguards, the WayGB......those people collectively know the hideous secrets and abuses.

Two things: "What is a believing believer?" Gee, maybe my memory is getting kinda fuzzy.........but I remember veepee teaching this concept as a born-again believer who "believes" to manifest (via operating the nine manifestations of holy spirit). And further, wasn't this in pfal......specifically referring to apiethia and apistia.....where a believer has heard enough to believe...?? And secondly, regarding this quote: I heard many bible references with inferences made to "the man of God." I sat thru plenty of Romans teachings where implications were made.....especially in corps training. The corps director /corps coordinators propounded this terminology....and corps went forth carrying this message to others. Besides, men like cgeer, craiggers, vincef, and others were "elevated" by bestowing this title and the closeness of their association with him. And,didn't vp soak in the adulation of this title (mog) when D@vid B@ilxy sang that song......."We'll follow the man of God wherever he wants to go, 'long as he want to go, onward against the foe.......We'll follow the man of God... Wierwille's silence was consent. Yep, I saw it with my own eyes.