skyrider

Another new year is here........and from what I've heard, twi continues on this path of "no-debt equals no mortgage payments" for its followers. I know, I know.........this topic has been discussed at length and been the reason why many have left twi. But.............the Indiana Limb Coordinators, the Ry@ns, have arrangements to pay "back-door mortgage payments" to parents for the purpose of side-stepping twi policies. This arrangement is similar to the one in Tampa, FL that I heard about a few years ago. If true, and I believe it is.........how can way corps leadership, limb coordinators, make these mortgage payments to the parents KNOWING FULL WELL that its deceitful and hypocritical..??? What gives THEM the right to side-step twi standards and dish out confrontation to others who want a home? Why don't they have a lease on an apartment like soooo many other innies? Why???.......maybe a little thing like building equity for the future. Maybe? And, if I've heard about the TWO situations involving corps leadership..........HOW MANY MORE ARE THERE????????? Is this stuff a secret to twi's bod?? Or, do they know about it and look the other way?? If Rosalie and Co. know about it and look the other way, then the deceptive corruption in the way tree has moved out from the root, up the trunk and out to the branches...!!!!! Double standards, once again.

Hmmm....not sure it has anything to do with understanding. Imo, it is one of the LAST tools in twi's bag to rachet up their CONTROL over their faithful followers. Having depleted the corps ranks thru the years with such take-away tactics.....the next in line happens to be the AC grads. Cults do things like that.

Hope.....good point. But just to clarify my post...........I found out about THESE DETAILS of the early 1990s just prior to exiting twi. By mid-1998, martindale could no longer hide his unsatiating lusts and the guy was seducing another corps man's wife at the hq advanced class. The pot of evil was boiling over.

(((Kathy))) It is not my intention to have you "leave" this forum. I defended martindale for years and years and years........and then, I found out things that were very disturbing to me. In the early 90s, Martindale had taken his license of lust and was "jumping the bones" of several that I knew. The guy had been been making advances on my wife.....and trying to lure her in. On-stage......the image that some remember. Off-stage......the predatory behavior that is hard to forget.

My apologies to HopeR Kathy........who said craig was solely to blame for all this? Obviously, there's something that triggered your response.........but you might want to read my comments on the trustees' responsibility. Here is what I said. To me....when the trustees followed martindale's revelation to put all corps full-time, they had no idea of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda. But again, as always.......YMMV. I remember hearing martindale expound about his "revelation from God" several times.....that all corps were to be full-time IF the ministry was to continue moving forward. And, on corps meetings...martindale shouted down any and all opposition! Weren't you tapped into these corps meetings? How many times did martindale rip a new one to any limb coordinator who wasn't following his policies? Are we talking responsibility issues here...........or, what? And, if you've "read me" on a consistent basis........I've posted "the good, the bad and the ugly" of twi. Yes, there were some good things. I've stated the GOOD as such...........but for those of us who stayed after "the fog years" the BAD and the UGLY were rampant night-stalkers of the good-hearted and simple of heart. The "good" has been discussed on numerous occasions. But Greasespot..........and specifically this About the Way forum is about "exposing the underbelly of twi, the other side." Sure there was some good. No doubt about it.....and I've been known to walk down memory lane on occasion. Had there not been some "good"......I wouldn't have stayed for 24 years. But, I in no way want to sugar-coat an organization WHOSE UPPER LEADERS (trustees and evil-advisors) WHERE PLAGAIRISM, PREDATORY WAYS AND PONTIFICATING were leading us away and seducing my corps sisters, trashing good reputations, shredding the good works of volunteers, etc. And furthermore, Kathy........I KNOW WAAAAAAAY MORE THAN I'VE POSTED, SO FAR. Nuff said.

Kathy......this roa-shutdown topic has always been one of great interest to me, because it coincides with the 1995 full-time staff era of all field corps. In April/May of 1995, the trustees announced that martindale had God's revelation to put all the way corps on full-time status payroll. Therefore, by August of 1995......all corps were to come to Corps Week prepared to meet with twi's PR/Finance guy, Br@d Th0rpe, to discuss their financial needs and sign the necessary paperwork for twi employment. And, there was no middle ground......either corps went full-time status or they were dropped. IIRC, martindale made some roa public statements about the rampant sex in "tent city" and stated how animal spirits were infesting twi....and didn't he cancel the way disciple program, as well? Anyways..........a few weeks later, at our first corps meeting of the 1995/1996 twi-year, martindale announced that the trustees decided to cancel the annual rock of ages festivals. And further, there would be only a select few invited to attend/work at November's AC Special in Dallas. Why....this sudden change of policies????? IMO, the corps were NOW FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES and all activites and EXPENSES were twi's responsibility since every corps was hired on "a need basis." If there had been a 1996 roa.......ALL TRAVELING & HOUSING EXPENSES would, technically, need to be reimbursed to the field corps for every corps week/roa. To me.........when the trustees followed martindale's "revelation to put all corps full-time" they had NO IDEA of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda. But again, as always........YMMV :)

Thanks, WD..........."It's a guess." Too funny.........ROFL

I wholeheartedly agree. A good summation of lots that's being said here at The Cafe.

Hmmmmm..........I am Macho Crippler

And, further..........IMO, the likelihood of JAL coming here is greatly diminished by the constraints of time that he, and others, are facing before the fast-approaching CES/STI Board Meetings in January. In his position paper, JAL noted that he had pages and pages of notes dealing with MG and KAG, the firing of CES office personnel, etc. etc. What about phone calls? Or, the side-meetings with individuals prior to these Board meetings? Not even the multi-tasking expertise of JAL could keep up with a barrage of GS communication.......with a January Board Meeting looming that is pivotal to his 20-year involvement with CES. Nope, I just don't think its a realistic expectation to see him here at The Cafe, at this time. :)

different situation, different experience..... *shrug*

And further...........one of my close friends, who has attended several CES meetings, has told JAL three times that he is NOT INTERESTED in momentus/deliverance group sessions. In spite of these face-to-face refusals, JAL persists in trying to convince him otherwise. Some might call it manipulation, others might call it bullying.........whatever, its JAL trying to cross personal boundaries and subject this groupthink crap into another's life. JAL refuses to hear the word "no"......... JAL has one agenda to fulfill..........his own.

Okay......before you guys "pick words apart".....please note THE CONTEXT of my post that Whitedove has noted from page 10. Sure, I could have elaborated on my points.......but I didn't. :) So, let me further explain. Point #1 This is one of the core issues of JAL's position paper. "..........the reason I remain committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the 'package' we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it..." Notice..........No mention of God or being lead/guided/called to help others. This isn't some side conversation involving JAL........it's a lengthy position paper. IMO, it's very telling of the JAL personality. Of course, I see Whitedove's point about it "being in the singular because John is the one speaking........but, to me, it gives a deeper glimpse into JAL's core beliefs, or stance. And, like I noted in my bullet statement.......NO MENTION OF GOD (or His spirit) or ministering to others in this "position paper." Point #2 But........."the package" is the best deal going. Again, to me........it's very telling how this new and improved version of twi NOW has "the package." Call me skeptical or call me nit-picky, but I just don't buy it. Point #3 Same song and dance, different band playing.............in other words, this is now THE ORGANIZATION that is carrying the torch to light the path. Simply put......I just don't believe God sanctifies an organization's "packaged deal" [or accepting a class formatted presentation]. Hope this helps put my post and position in CONTEXT.

Well.......since you're putting vpw into the "flawed human being" category, it's certainly ALOT closer to reality than classifying him as The Teacher or The Man of God or The One who received unknown truths that hadn't been known since the First Century. Thanks, Oldies........associating victor paul wierwille as a "flawed human being".....on the same level as others..... is a major step down from the self-appointed perch of pfal.

Jonny.......some of us have pointed out WHY we are interested in this thread, but apparently you keep missing the point that some of us are making. IMO (and others who've posted the same thing)......CES is promoting an inner-circle doctrine involving personal prophecies, dream interpretation, momentus badgering, etc. wherein bullying and manipulation are staple tools of their organization. Apparently, some of us who take a concerned interest in this thread have friends and/or family being courted with these deceitful doctrines......and thus, we are speaking forth our concerns, our viewpoints. Even some of the CES followers have come forward and said, "They had no idea CES was pushing these personal prophecy doctrines, or had a Prophetic Advisory Council." Why is there an inner-circle of information for those who are more spiritually mature??? To me, this sounds all too eerily familiar with the structure/hierarchy/agenda of CES' parent organization....twi. Personally, I don't care if you "don't get it." Nor do I follow the advice of "just move on and forget it." For me, I think open dialogue is a great thing.....something twi attempted to squelch for far too long. Sure, we could stop posting and go have another beer, or something. But .......obviously, some of us have a concerned interest in this thread and are sharing our thoughts, our experiences, our viewpoint. Happy New Year.

I love Greasespot too.... Geez..........an Open forum filled with loads of information and helpful advice. And............an About The Way forum to expose the ills, manipulation, etc. to move forward. And............a Silly Forum for jokes and laughter and such. And............a Doctrinal Forum to learn and debate in-depth topics. And............a Prayer Room for personal requests for prayer. And............a Friend Tracker forum. Thank you, thank you. And............soooooo much more...!! What some don't realize is that there is PLENTY OF DIVERSITY here. The forums, the people, the experiences, the open dialogue without leaving your cozy corner of computer-land. Of course, it does expose lots of manipulation and exploitation by twi and its offshoots. And, some "spiritual leaders" might issue a blanket policy to stay off ex-way sites for self-serving reasons. But geez............what's not to like if you're a pro-active person?? Thanks Paw. Happy New Year to you and thanks for keeping the doors open to Greasespot......helping hundreds (thousands??) who patronize your place.

Me too...!!!

Exactly...!!! Like..........what???? Hmmmmm.......maybe those things that were happening in Corinth shouldn't have been written and exposed??? Quick.....someone tell God that his holy men shouldn't be writing such things like we see in the second epistle of Corinthians??????????? And.................why does Jesus warn his followers about "wolves in sheep's clothing?" And.................why did those present-day epistles alert the first century church about seducers and deceivers who work contrary to the cross of Christ?? Etc. etc.

Abso-damn-lutely...!! This CES-hierarchy thingy is JUST LIKE the twi-thingy.........wanting to LORD OVER God's heritage. It's pride running wild. It's in the devil's ballpark. It's........well, you get my drift. I signed the green card......TO BETTER RUN MY LIFE (with God at the center). Who in the heck would "sign on" for a Prophetic Council to manage one's life...?? :blink: :blink:

And....here is another way to read JAL's statement: ...the reason I remain committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the 'package' we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it... Notice......no mention of God or being lead/guided/called to help others But.........."the package" is the best deal going. Same song and dance, different band playing [to know all the answers].

Standing from a distance.......I share no "glee" in seeing CES's demise. But.....as an ex-clergyman of twi and knowing JAL, JS, MG and KAG from my corps days......I see GLARING similarities of twi-manipulation/exploitation that spur me, as a watchman, to warn the people of an approaching enemy. Like another poster stated, "the package of pfal" was offered to us as well as, seemingly, the starting point of all truth. From this ill-centered premise of pfal, spun the doctrines of men that swallowed the grace of God and turned it into a lie that devastated the lives of countless followers. So why is it.......that CES now has "the package" and while many focus on packaged goods, behind the scenes there are dream or personal prophesies, devilish prophesies, that spiritually slice one open like a knife fight in a dark alley? My viewpoint does not center on personal issues, marital issues, inter-office working issues, etc.........BUT RATHER on embracing "the package of Jesus Christ" and the simplicity that is in Christ and therein eschewing ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL (ie. personal prophecies, dream interpretations, momentus bedfellows, deceivers and seducers, etc.). The Scriptures [Acts 15] unfold a blueprint for handling dissention in the Church..........Men of God, certain witnesses, church leadership, elders and apostles are present. Note: It is NOT an inner circle of leaders or staff members that hashes out the grievances and buries the evidence. May CES leadership abide in the Word and DO the Word.....to resolve these conflicts and doctrines. And, my prayer is.......that these devilish doctrines of preconceived, personal prophesy be uprooted and burned in the fire of God's power and grace. God bless.

This needs repeating. And..........having two close friends who attend CES fellowships/functions, why is it that JAL keeps pushing the Momentus/Deliverance sessions on them? From the sounds of it, Momentus opens one up to loads of spiritual blackmail and, possibly, spousal contentions.......needing to run a gauntlet of public exposure for past sins and/or very personal thoughts. Sure, there is some "prophesy records" in the scriptures.......but that, in no way, justifies dark ramblings of religious ritual. How can CES leadership buy into this voodoo verbaige????

PB..........really nice. :) Hope to hear move in the upcoming months. And, if you're ever traveling our way.......bring your guitar (and wife). Merry Christmas.

Groucho.........very well stated. After reading through Elizabeth's letter to JAL............I was amazed by her logic, her clarity, her commitment to marriage, her bold confrontation, etc. She nailed it!! If a 16-page confrontation couldn't wake JAL/others up.........what will?????????????? :unsure: :unsure: And..........her situation brought back floods of memories from those last couple of years that I was involved with twi. Uuuuugh.

Yeah..........I stayed in that loft for about six weeks in July/Aug of 1978 (?) before moving into my corps unit. At the time, I was not fixated on vpw's movements and midnight yarns.......just wanted to "grow with God and help others"......so I don't remember vpw's comings and goings much. I do remember Mrs. W. being pleasant and caring.......as well as lots of others, but there were little cliques and departmental groupings at every meal. No big deal...it happens everywhere. However one chooses to reminisce "the good ole days" is on a spectrum of mog-adulation to friendships to heart service for God and everything inbetween. No, I wouldn't classify hq as "lovey-dovey stuff"........but I will agree with you that hq changed dramatically around 1979/80. IMO, the old set-up......the BRC and office building on grounds were too small for the numbers of people flocking to twi. The shell of the OSC building was in place, with plans for the offices and dining facilities, went into full production by 1979.......and corporate twi came about face. By April/May of 1979........the BRC sunday teachings, and eating our staff meals in the basement, were replaced by the OSC facilites. Things had changed.....the "old ways" were gone.....and some balked. No matter........moving forward was the only way to go. And, add to all this........Wierwille handed over "his ministry" to Martindale in 1982. So, yeah.........I think it's quite clear that twi changed dramatically. But, I, in no way would classify those earlier years as "the good ole days"............unless I wanted to tag some importance to myself for being there during that period of time. Heck.......my high school years were "some good ole days."