skyrider

uptown......I understand your point, but here's another perspective. Some of us....and yes, I'm including several of my ex-twi friends here.....found out about twi's darker side and evil, seductive agendas. We exited and started rebuilding our lives. Of course, no longer being 22 years old.......with 7 nights a week of "free time" it was a little different. Now, at 46 (as an example).....we were responsible for a spouse, growing teenagers, school activities, extra parenting, night school (or extra training) to pay the bills, etc. etc. etc. Add to that, several of us were still attending bible fellowships, or RUNNING bible fellowships to help others, and spending countless hours try to help those who were burdened, hurt, abused by twi. If THAT is what you call quitting........so be it. Life continues moving forward and each one of us has to anwer to God for our actions, our marriage vows, our parenting. No more "just smiling at the fellowship and eating cookies afterwards"....ya know. My bible says..........if a man doesn't take care of his family he is worse than an infidel (unbeliever). Did you ever notice how MANY region-type leaders in twi had NO CHILDREN (or just one)?????? Or, that Erman & Dorothy Owxns didn't have children........or the trustees and their nannies???? Or, all the requests at those big limbs for volunteer workers and child care????? Really, I'd have to know alot more about ex-twiers before using the word "quit." IMO, it's judgemental at best.........and could misalign alot of us with good hearts STILL SERVING GOD in different ways.

Belle..........Too funny. One of the reasons why I asked this........is because my wife and I have discussed this topic on a few occassions. And, invariably.....we see that this "friendship" was really a comaraderie of fellow-workers who rally around a cause. IMO, no true friendships.....not like before-twi-days. By the mid-90s, it was full-blown squeal-on-your-neighbor-communism-style. Heck, twi hardly has anything that resembles true fellowship..........let along TRUE FRIENDSHIP. Reluctantly.......and I really mean that (very reluctantly)......I had to finally admit to myself that twi was (is) a CULT. Once outside the cult-system..................FRIENDS appear once again.

Did you have any "true friends" in twi? A Friend A friend is one who knows you as you are.... Understands where you've been.... Accepts who you've become and Still gently invites you to grow.

I John 3.........you lost me there. You comment that wierwille might have made a mistake......but then, discount the point that cff leaders are teaching it. Then, you cite that you believe "the law of believing is in the Word." I contest that it is NOT. Yes, there is believing.....as noted throughout the scriptures. Most Christians that I know wouldn't disagree with that at all.....nor do I. But to state that wierwille's "law of believing" is in the Word..... is higly debatable. And.......your comments on "you all" and "the complainers here" and "back biting & evil speaking" are vague and insinuating. You have your opinions and I have mine. No big deal....just be specific with your posts.

Grace......good points. Some of us have read, and responded, to the LOY-alty letter before.

Well........I checked out the CFF website a few days ago, went to a section on their teachings........and, there I found "the law of believing" cut and pasted for the zillionth time since wierwille's pfal. Why not highlight trust......like Prov. 3:5...Trust in the Lord with all thine heart (etc) Or, faith......as in, the faith of Jesus Christ. Some of wierwille's pfal terminology is unbiblical.....YET, cff keeps pushing it. Don't know if they simulate the teaching on "red drapes" or "you know what killed that little boy.....you just quit your yakking." Why they stay in pfal-rewind is a turn-off to me. Uuuugh. Here's a verse for you, I John... Phil. 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel. Hope this helps.

And.....what did VP teach us about CANCER..????? And.....didn't VP die of CANCER..?????

Michael......welcome to GSC. I don't know how much you've been around The Cafe.......there's lots here. And, people from all walks and viewpoints, different experiences and abuses, free advice, helpful information, etc. etc. Hopefully, you understand.......that you can't paint everyone here with the same brush. Lots of us know plenty about cff.............friends, relatives, etc. Even catcup who frequents here.....and her husband is a reverend in cff.......likes diversity. At one time, she talked about attending church occassionally. Open group confrontation doesn't work too well here........just so ya know. Peace Out.

Exactly!!

Dare I ask??..........WHO'S going to re-examine the doctrine?? First of all......this BUYS them time and sounds eerily familiar to twi's responses. Secondly.......the CES followers should demand a WIDER CIRCLE of input/dialogue. Thirdly..........HOW LONG will this process take? Any accountability or deadlines? Lastly............SOUNDS LIKE "they" are not going to put out the fire, but silence the alarms. Same ole politics, same ole bs. <_<

Research.............oooooooh, there's that high and mighty revered word again. Just a quick sampling to get the brain cells working: ....1) Proverbs is loaded with practical admonitions........do this, don't do that. ....2) Jesus warned his disciples to examine the fruit .....by their fruits YE SHALL KNOW THEM. ....3) Ephesians is balanced with doctrine and practice..............the balanced walk. ....4) Vain worship..............honor with their lips, but their heart (actions) is far from God. ....5) Division, divorce, destruction..........are NOT qualities from the One True God. ....6) Many CES followers have confronted the CES Board thru the years.....no changes. ....7) Is this "research" objective?......or fitted to an already-concluded agenda? ....8) Is this "research" leading those away from the simplicity of Christ? Knowledge puffeth up....and UP.....and UP.

Huh..??? Maybe I've been away from these "high-demand groups" a little too long.......because I see a HUGE disconnect between "very good research guy" as opposed to "nodding in agreement at board mtgs for a momentus/dreamworld interpretation/nose-spider revy environment of evil." But then, what do I know???? There are people who follow Ernst Aingley and Benny Hinn and swear that their stuff is of God.

This sounds about right. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a public release stating that: "The CES/STI Board has come together on several issues that, for a period of time, needed more research and focus. In the weeks to follow, you will be hearing of these developments and spiritual insights in your teaching tapes. And further, we are in agreement that Mark Graesar is better suited to head up our Research Department and step away from all his duties as STI's president, at this time. Thank you for your continued support and prayers."

Oakspear.......I know, that's what seems so bizarre about twi's no-debt policies. There are TOO MANY flaws in twi's rhetoric...........just doesn't hold water. Like, you can "stiff" your parents or relatives (if you cut to another corps assignment in another city) .....and leave them with all the headaches, and that's okay or biblically justified???? IMO, it's two-faced doctrinal error like this that continues to give twi a black-eye. This whole issue of home ownership is a major concern for twi's aging corp and ac grads. THE FIELD CORPS ALREADY KNOW....that twi is not going to do squat for them in the future, during their retirement years. The innie corps may be committed, but they are NOT insane.

Or.......you MIGHT say edited my post humorously

Two things.........1) who are "visitors?" Unless twi has drastically changed its PR department, I would think that "visitors" strickly means in-house innies. After all, maybe there has been so negative feedback from the field with camp gunnison being SO EMPTY and ABS HELPS MAINTAIN IT. Therefore, I could see that twi might benefit in innie's perception as "twi is changing" and innies can have access to this scenic area wherein their abs is more-or-less a condo-lease setup. And.......2) if these "visitors" are NOT just in-house innies.....well, imagine what could happen?? Elk hunters who want to party after a successful hunt.....or, fishermen who want to fish the river, clean their fish on the banks, fry their dinner, drink their beer.......or, honeymoon couples who want total privacy and not have "bless patrol" walking by their cabin thru the night.......or, campground folk that want to sit up all hours of the night by a campfire with lots of friends. OR......a GSC reunion where loads of us go there to "bless the grounds." IMO, it's gotta be #1......in-house innies. And, the "benefit" is to bring their families to this scenic area and reminisce some memories.

Several years ago, I attended a few local CFF fellowships........simple teachings, no big deal. The small group was kind and considerate........like most churches I've attended. But after those fellowships, when some talked about "the Word".......the adulation for DR. wierwille, and how he walked with God, came forward front and center. It turned my stomach. Why do some of these offshoots have this pyramid-style structure where DR. wierwille is at the apex? And really, who is doing "the Word.??? How come some want to proclaim...."I am of Paul and I am of Apollos or I am of Dr. Wierwille".....when THE SCRIPTURES point out this deception so clearly in Corinthians??? I've been around CFF folk who continue to uphold "the law of believing" jargon, the "renew your mind" to petty issues, etc.......in so many ways, it's like they simply took their collateral books (not the Bible) and moved down the street from twi. And......before you say that I'm painting the whole organization with a broad stroke, please note that this is MY EXPERIENCES. I know nothing about your neck of the woods. From all that I've heard.....if you want to rekindle the friendships and memories of early twi-days, then CFF is the group to attend. But for me......I simply do NOT believe that God wants me to, exclusively, attend small home fellowships the rest of my life. IMO, the environment lends to private interpretation and probable manipulation. I love reading the Scriptures ..... but I also invite open dialogue and different viewpoints. Maybe, that's why I like hanging out here at GSC.

On another thread, the topic of AC status was addressed. If one doesn't stay in good standing with their local corps leadership (regular attendance, abs giving, no-debt, strong marriage, etc.).....then they lose their Advanced Class status and cannot attend AS Specials, the only ministry-wide event of the year. Since twi replaces their classes every 5-8 years......how many more times does one have to jump thru their hoops to stay in good standing??? Sure seems more like "works" not grace to stay in this vicious cycle. And......what is THE END RESULT..?? No matter how long you stay involved..........there will come a time (if you live long enough) when you will NO LONGER have the strength to keep going. What then?? Well, unless there's a policy change after RFR's watch.....you'll be cast aside and listed unworthy and forgotten on the highway of life. At the very least, churches don't do that. :)

Exactly..!!! The twi kids CAN'T do this........their innie-parents are bottom-feeding off THEIR parents and will swallow up this equity thru their retirement years. It is any wonder WHY twi-kids are bolting......and getting careers far removed from twi-isolation..?? And.......back in 1996, when LCM addressed the "kids going to college issue"......his response on a corps teaching was in essence TRY TO GET THE GRANDPARENTS TO PAY FOR IT. Geeez....such leeching, bottom-feeding tactics CAN'T be the sole answer for twi's corps to manuever thru life, can it???????? So much for the corps reading the George Mueller biography....and how he, day-by-day, believed God's providence in feeding and housing 120 (?) kids in the orphanage.

Well.....IF this surge of "back door mortgages" is across the USA, obviously rosalie and co. know about these situations and that many corps are NO LONGER taking corps assignment changes. Geeez.....those March Placement Meetings are probably not even needed anymore....except to cater to the Region guys and pontificate. So really........"Believe God to raise the cash to buy a home outright" actually means "Go talk with your parents / grandparents and see if they'd be willing to buy you a house and let you make payments to them"......????? Amazingly hypocritical. The manipulatees have learned how to be the manipulators.

:blink: :blink: :blink: Looks like it IS a common practice....!!!

With regards to this "Muslim Mortgage".......clearly, this banking arrangement has provided an avenue for many to stay within the confines of their no-debt approach to honor their religion. But..........with twi, "Back Door Mortgage" with parents/grandparents involved has a whole different set of elements and intangibles. Doesn't twi leadership propound that "all believers can buy a home WITH CASH if they believe God".....or something to that effect? And besides......field corps assignments generally change every 5-7 years, especially for limb coordinators and such. For corps leadership to be settling into a "25-year mortgage arrangement"...... its a whole different approach than the martindale era. And really.........if the limb coordinators can do it, then fine. Preach it from the pulpit and let all the AC grads into the loop.

Very interesting, Twinky. There you go twi-innies............for a "nominal amount" the bank will establish a third party entity (held in trust) so that you can stay in good standing with twi. Just pay the extras.......and STOP begging your parents/grandparents to cover for your lack of believing. Glad to help. [PS.....of course, way corps have to tell twi's bod that they will NO LONGER take corps assignment changes from existing city. In other words, NOW corps are partly in charge of their future.]

Yes....it is an awkward moment, to run into a long-standing innie who wants to "witness" you back into twi's walls of zion. About three years ago, I had it happen to me. He gave me the rap that "things had changed" and were SO MUCH BETTER NOW. Of course, I brought up some of the doctrinal issues....like the present truth spewth, the no-debt illogic, the mark/avoid labeling to silence any grievances, etc. And, I told him why I no longer could stand with twi's evil. Well...........about three weeks ago, I heard that he and his family no longer attend twi. I wonder if my "unwitnessing" got his brain cells jump-started abit??

Exactly..!! Could it possibly be........that certain corps leaders KNOW twi's no-debt/mortgage payment policy is simply another manipulating tool, BUT they, too, have to jump thru the hoops to stay within twi's confining system of control?? And......it wouldn't surprise me in the least, that if twi's bod confronted these limb coordinators, or slapped them with an assignment change to another state......they'd defect.