skyrider

The class I hated the most..?? If I remember it's specific name.......... Audio class: 1995/96.....Biblical Principles of a Believer's Family Just awful....and embarrassing to be the class coordinator

OT.......this thread? Well, the title got it started.....but when conversing around the table here at GS, the conversation can go anywhere. Oh, and.......whatever else you're scratching, it's more information than I care to know. Thanks.

Maybe that's it, polar bear.........the "big picture" seemed to focus on more people, i.e. the vpw-expressed goal of commissioning 4,000 WOWs for the 40th anniversary year, 1982. Didn't happen, though......fell quite short. Of course, I have to stop and take into account that the original-trustee-era was coming to a close when harry died in 1977, ermal died in 1979.....and wierwille was starting to struggle with health issues, too. And, with the 40th anniversary in sight.....wierwille was busy studying and sizing up his men to see who would qualify for the 2nd president of twi. But still.......imo, the "walls came tumbling down" because twi was OUTSIDE the blessings of God. Lots and lots of reasons, I suppose......but the corruption of the way tree was at the ROOTS. And, yeah.....it took a few years to manifest outwardly, but by 1979 (at least) it was in decay mode. So many things........ :unsure: In hindsight, I think that being in a small, growing twig........FAR AWAY FROM THE ROOT........was the best of memories and sweetest of times.

Thanks Linda.......it's good to hear this. I've always wondered why, in all my years with twi.....I never saw vpw involved in praying and ministering directly to others.

Yeah.....that's about how I remember it, too. And it always struck me odd that "the top brass" weren't out there, front and center, to minister and pray for the people. Why?? What could be more important at this time than ministering to the people seeking God's deliverance?? Of course, "He sent His Word and healed them"..........I know. But also, there was POWER demonstrated throughout the early Church by the gift ministries. And surely, "power for abundant living" wasn't just a cliche........or in reference to material abundance. It's spiritual power, right?????? Maybe, I wasn't seeing things clearly.........so I shelved these perplexing thoughts. I've told this story before......so I'll keep it brief. My first year as a WOW Ambassador......I went with the sole purpose of giving a year of my life to God. My wow brother and I were door-to-door witnessing and we knocked on the door of this elderly couple. With a little reluctance, they opened the door and I did most of the talking. The wife was more intent on listening than her husband......and when I talked about healing, she drew in closer. In my bold claims of God's will for people to be healed......she confessed that her right eye was blurred by a catarac (sp). I asked her if she'd like for me to pray with her......and she willingly accepted this opportunity. I then motioned for her husband to join in this prayer......a small circle, with the wife on one side of me and the husband on the other. And, my wow brother stood close by. We closed out the world of doubt and went to the Father with specific petitions. With intensity of love, and an outpouring of God's grace......I ended my prayer and we all opened our eyes. Immediately, the woman started crying and crying and wiping her tears. She could SEE. Her right eye was clear. With the husband crying, I started crying and we all hugged and cried together. On this day, at that moment, this woman received healing from God. During my first WOW year, I saw three such healings.......and even though we had several tough challenges throughout the year, I could cling to these "God moments." And heck, I was just a measly, little WOW guy who knew very little bible. How much GREATER to keep growing, go in the corps, be around twi leadership..............how I was SORELY MISTAKEN. So much of corps training was........pfal rehash, dale carnegie techniques, petty work assignments, encroaching legalism, translations according to usage, twi history, wierwille adulation, lightbearers, research paper, etc. What about.....walking in love, walking in light, walking circumspectly.....and SEEING the power of God in operation???? Why weren't corps coordinators leading us into the SPECIFICS of the revelation and impartation manifestations??? What gives??????.........I'd rather SEE a sermon, than hear one ANY DAY. :blink:

Danny, Yeah....."living at his feet" at hq, lots of those after-teaching meetings and night-owls were times when he'd talk about the early years of his ministry, his learning truths, etc. We'd sit for hours hearing those accounts about uncle harry or ermal or the wierwille farmstead. I only remember ONE healing session at all the rock of ages I attended.....and vpw was onstage directing others into ministering healing. I think someone abandoned their crutches. At PFAL '77........any healings or anything?? Nope. Adv. Class '79....lots on Jonestown and conspiracy theories. Any signs or whatever? Nope. Living Victoriously (1982)......vpw got his motorcylce w/ sidecar. And yeah........the company line, "it's still the word if no one believes."

SEE.............THAT'S why I like it here at GS. Thanks, socks.

I John 3........"living so far in the past"..... "Living" and "posting on GS" are two entirely different things for me. I like the dialogue here on GS, so I spend a few hours a week here........but I wouldn't call that "living." For me, its nice to reconnect with some friends, laugh, converse, hear different viewpoints and share my viewpoints. I'm glad you are starting to see that YOU don't need to be a defender of every post, every different viewpoint that disagrees with wierwille legend-land or its offshoots. Others from cff (who will remain nameless) have debunked his MOG-status and exposed his plagairism and past carnal lusts. Maybe.......YOU are "living in the past" of twi-legends told.

Remember that poem........ I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day, I'd rather one would walk with me, than merely point the way, etc. etc. So MANY reasons why "they" merely pointed the way.......where to start?? Sure, there are the obvious ones like hypocrisy and control. But the multi-layered, beauracratic structure kept the MOGs and mog-wannabes in an "untouchable" category. Besides the pfal-claims of snow-covered gas pumps, or the healed man in India.........when did vpw walk amongst the people and DEMONSTRATE THE POWER OF GOD? How about Craig? Vince? Geer? In over two decades of twi involvement......I didn't see vpw or craig or rosalie or donna demonstrate the power of God in their lives via signs, miracles or wonders. Not one incident. In the multi-layered structure of twi (and other twi-offshoots).....the "leader" seems to sit at his desk with Bible open and computer on. Teachings on believing ...yada, yada, yada.....but WHEN and WHERE do these guys go out and do the Book of Acts?????? I mean, really, these comparisons to the Apostle Paul, or Barnabus, or Philip, or Timothy.........NOT even in the same ballpark. Even reading Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, we see vpw searching and pleading for the power of God and finally, being thrilled AFTER sitting thru Rev. B.G. Leonard's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit." Much of wierwille's growing ministry is marked by trial and error.....until he began utilizing other men's work and, finally at age 51, filmed pfal. But even so....imo, the culture of the late 60s and the Jesus Movement had as much to do with the youth seeking God than ANY DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S POWER at twi's hq. Sure, the start-up of the corps and some classes mark wierwille's "growing" work......but what about God's signature on this being the real deal?? Maybe, some here saw these "leaders" walk the walk.........but I didn't. Any eye-witness accounts are welcomed. I'd like to know if you saw anything besides charisma and teaching techniques. Thanks.

Ditto for my posts too. I John 3.......you are posting on a public forum where different viewpoints are being expressed. Every post is NOT an argument, or evil attack, or devil spirits behind the words. Sheeeeesh.........some of us have tried to clarify you points, your-India-statement....and you STILL attack. Perhaps, if you'd step back abit.......and think before firing-away, you'd see what's being discussed, rather cordially I might add. Some of us have been around the block waaaaaaaay more than you know. Peace. :)

I could be wrong on this........but I think this statement is referring to Rev. Sang@t B@ins and his growing ministry work in India. Apparently, John & Wayne invited (paid expenses?) Sang@t to come to CFF and teach and share some deliverance stories from his India ministry. If I remember, Sang@t went into the 10th corps, then graduated and went back to India.......and broke off his ties with twi. He didn't let twi get their "authoritative hooks" into him. Sang@t's ministry and work is totally INDEPENDENT from cff. Peter J. W@de's ministry and work is INDEPENDENT from cff. IMO, the statement by I John 3:1 is misleading........like "they" (cff) are "very much involved with the poor in India." Why????? Because cff invited Sang@t to teach at a weekend conference??? I could be wrong.......but I don't think it's any more than that. Possibly, a little cash donation, maybe? Remember how vpw went to solicit Jimmy Dxxp and also, Steve Hefnxr and graft their works into "his" Ohio work? Grafting in others' ministries can REALLY help boost one's ministry image. VPW did this back in the 60's. Personally, I think its good that Christians support other Christians...........and maybe that was the intent. But, if this thing was to boost their image and graft.....well, that's not good.

TLB..........that sums up why there tends to be lots of discussion of those offshoot threads. Fool me once, shame on you........fool me twice, shame on me. Thanks Paw......for keeping GSC up and running. :)

Unless I hear differently............I presume it's a NO. :)

sonofarthur..........this "offshoot" issue is an intriguing one. IMO......technically, TWI is an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's group. In 1953, wierwille went to Calgary, Alberta, Canada and sat thru B.G.'s foundational class in March and then, June/July. According to twi's book, Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was thrilled with this knowledge. In less than three months later......vpw taught this class to his small congregation and others interested. Also, twi was incorporated in 1953........and vpw had his stuff copyrighted real quick. B.G. Leonard found out about vpw running this "offshoot" class and was upset. So, imo........twi is a splinter group, too. But, carry on.

Maybe............its ANOTHER one of those things that twi is s-l-o-w-l-y and quietly eliminating from their founding president's obsession with power and control. Yeah......maybe it IS slowly changing from its wierwille-idolatrous past......after all, they did change from "board of trustees" to "board of directors." Except that it STILL doesn't have the same independent oversight that churches provide for their congregation. Twi's History: President's Home..................check President's Coach.................check President's Cabinet...............check President's Seal....................check President's Room..................check Founders' Hall.......................check Founders' Burial Garden.........check ??????????????.......................CHECK

Embracing its non-profit status and "religious" by-laws.........isn't twi classified as a church.?? And yet.........how many churches have a president's cabinet? I mean, isn't the top man in the corner denomination deemed a priest, a rabbi, a minister or senior pastor of the congregation?? Sure, sure..... there's a board of directors, usually 6-12 selected members, who add another level to safeguard the accountability of church governing and finances. But................a President's Cabinet...??????? The further and further I step back and LOOK at twi's structure..........the more it strikes me that the FOUNDING PRESIDENT structured his "presidency" with a yes-men cabinet. This structure is more fitting to an anarchy, a dictatorship, than a "church" per se. Hey, churchgoers.........does your church have a President's Cabinet..????? :blink:

Yep........that's the way I remember it. And, also........it provided LCM a place real quick with no forwarding address, no lease papers to sign, no mortgage, nothing. The man just "vanished" in thin air. No "mark & avoid" category for Craig.......no sirreeee. A new category............"Without A Trace"

ex10.......thanks for pointing this out. Ya know, that statement about "man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of The Word"....never set right with me. Even though I'd heard it hundreds of times, I never really accepted vpw's answer. The premise was off. The carnal man's basic dilemma is one of separation and enmity towards God.....a void and spiritual wholeness that Jesus Christ fulfilled via God's plan of salvation and redemption. Don't care to delve into all of it....else this might as well be in the doctrinal forum.

Lots of good points on this thread. IMO, when someone comes at me with an accusatory tone or comparing MY LIFE with other believers (and much less, with "church leaders")......they've already exposed their lack of understanding of the scriptures and, consequently, walking contrary to God's doctrine and good pleasure. Read I Corinthians 12:12-31.....this whole section HIGHLIGHTS what God orchestrated and what pleases Him. Point by point, God sets the record straight: every believer is unique and a member (equally measured in importance) and needful in the Body of Christ. To those who accuse and tempt to manipulate..............READ THE SCRIPTURES.

Maybe momentus had a higher volume rate in the 90s..........but I can tell you for a fact that its STILL being pushed by JAL in 2006.

exie, According to a reliable source.....this was JAL's open confession. Why he would want to publically admit this??.......I really don't know. And really, I don't care. I just don't like to see MANIPULATION and PRYING....... Can't these "leaders" just leave people alone??????????

Absolutely....!!!!! THAT'S what bugs the crap outta me about their PRYING. One of my close friends has said NO.....time and time and time again. JAL keeps pushing and pushing and pusing momentus.........in one of "his public confessions" JAL has openly admitted to SIXTEEN AFFAIRS during his twi days. Now, tell me..........why do we NEED to see JAL's laundry?????? Why is JAL openly admitting this stuff?? Is there really any profit in it.??????? Uuuuuuuuugh........quit pushing momentus, JAL.

Yeah......."the law of believing" is phoney baloney. Yet, it's one of the cornerstones of wierwille's "ministry."

Sometimes, when I think of true friendship....the account of David and Jonathan comes to mind. True Friends: ....1) A special bond and deep concern for one another. ....2) Each was unique and independent ....3) Came together in prayer ....4) Sought the Lord for strength and guidance ....5) When the time came for David to leave, Jonathan agreed ....6) Together, they worked out a plan for David's escape ....7) Jonathan remained while David fled ....8) A deep love and concern for each other stayed intact While "in"......I can't really say that I had THOSE types of true friends. But I do NOW.

ex10 / Linda I am NOT surprised that you two had friends in twi.....to me, you both exemplify that type of friendly nature and warmth.