skyrider

So, ex10.....you're saying that wierwille was like blind-sided by his own doing? Here, he'd built a pyramid structure where the (cult) followers give full allegiance to the MOG....and since, wierwille had now passed the mantle to martindale, wierwille was out to pasture. So, he goes off sulking? And, later........the MOGdom divides into two camps (Martindale & Geer). And, years later.......the MOGdom divides again and again and the little moglets keep their allegiance to the little-pond mogs. And, 22 years after wierwille's death............the MOG DOCTRINE lives on. <_<

Thanks Sunesis, It's amazing to put the pieces of the puzzle together.....seeing how wierwille crafted his persona, his grandeur chest-pounding of self-importance. Yet, the deceptions and lies speak of a dark side. One thing that always intrigued me, at the end of wierwille's life was his "running off to Cgeer." Your following perspective is much the same as I've concluded. Why run off to Cgeer? Makes no sense to me.......unless I view it as a man who CONTROLLED aspects around him for decades and, in the end, only about to CONTROL THE PERCEPTION OF HIS LEGACY [to keep it from crumbling before his eye(s)]. Apparently, the trustees were ignoring him....or so we were told. From wierwille's perspective, I guess it was a last-ditch effort to preserve HIS DECEPTION......er, I mean his legacy. He was dying of cancer.....and having taught for years in his adv classes that cancer was A DEVIL SPIRIT.......now what? How does he mask this? What are "his" people to think....if the MOG dies from a devil spirit, from spirit infiltration????? Sure makes me wonder what he and cgeer REALLY talked about? what they SCHEMED together? And, Geer writes in POP that wierwille died of a broken heart, a BROKEN HEART?????? C'mon geer....we are no longer 20-year old kids. When I heard Geer's pompous, grandiose expose of how long he worked, how hard he struggled, how he tried to help vpw, how the trustees had "forsaken the word".......I THOUGHT THEN, LIKE I THINK NOW.....WHAT A BUNCH OF HORSE PUCKIE...!!!!! Of course, Geer wanted to "preserve the legacy of wierwille"........of course, Geer wanted to rewrite wierwille's mogship in a positive light........of course, Geer was geared to usurp the trustees' authority and funnel the money into Gartmore's accounts. Fool me once, shame on you...........Fool me twice, shame on me. Sorry, if this is

Gee........where are all the vpw-defenders who claim that victor paul wierwille's doctrine (ie...pfal class) sufficiently speaks for his commitment, his life, his legacy???? Maybe, its just the weekend and all those guys are not around. Could be. IF..........DOCTRINE were to be the all-in-all of Christian living, then (according to vpw-defenders) there should be THREE CHURCH EPISTLES --- Romans, Ephesians, Thessalonians. After all, who needs anything else but doctrine, right? BUT........their "learning" (in pfal) betrays them IF they think that MANNER OF LIFE in unimportant and inconsequential. God certainly thinks so.....since (as vpw teaches) pfal states doctrine......reproof.....correction ------the instructions of righteousness ( or right living). And, since manner of life IS IMPORTANT, God had holy men pen Corinthians, Galatians, Phillipians, Colossians....to get believers back to RIGHT DOCTRINE. See........even these vpw-defenders don't ADHERE to their pfal-staunched position.

Is Mrs. Wierwille's account.....a published work by The Way International......a doozie, as well??? Well? Or......was Mrs. Wierwille's eye-witness account altered too...???

Yeah.....what you said. I've brought this information forward before......BUT since there are some new folks around, I'll review some of it. According to Mrs. Wierwille, the up-front EYE-WITNESS of vpw's life and ministry, reveals lots of information in her book Born Again to Serve that was published in 1996. According to Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was growing weary of his ministry work and was strongly thinking about quitting....and looking for secular employment. He was frustrated and going nowhere. THEN......knowing a year earlier (??) that Rev. BG Leonard had specifically prayed for their daughter and she was healed AND that Leonard was running his Receiving the Holy Spirit classes in Calgary, Alberta, Canada...wierwille phoned BG and flew up there for this February 1953 class. Leonard's ministry and class material THRILLED vpw [Mrs. W's book documents it in her words....thrilled] and vpw takes Mrs. and Don and two carloads of his following to the next class, in June/July of 1953. Wierwille is a grad of this June/July class and is NOT in the class photo. After this class ends, wierwille heads home and starts signing up relatives, friends and neighbors for "his" October class. With no class syllabi, no charts, no handouts.....wierwille teaches Leonard's class material. Those who attended the Calgary class are considered grads and do not have to pay any registration fee. Seems like Leonard's class format, class photo, registration policies, etc.......were wierwille's new policies, as well. Add to this.....The Way was incorporated that SAME year, 1953. When all of this background information is added to wierwille's character and boastings of God's revelation to him and all.......it's obvious to me that wierwille was little more than a business man, a peddler of someone else's material. Sure, there were pockets of truth in pfal.........so? Much of the pfal foundation was Rev. Leonards' material. It really doesn't take rocket science to connect the dots. And, when one looks at wierwille's personal life.......narcisstic traits, arrogance, outbursts of anger, degradation of women, pride, bullying, controlling......it all lends toward a man who's life mirrors DECADES OF DECEPTION. He systematically built an inner circle of yes-men (with business savvy, once again) who defied the many red-flags while he lived......BUT with the internet and the passing of time, "those onced silenced are NOW raising their voices." At the near end of his life, wierwille ANSWERED "the man in the glass" and publically stated his disapproval with his own life and lifestyle by saying, "I wish I were the man I know to be." Not much of a confession, but after DECADES OF DECEPTION......perhaps even he believed his own hype and persona. <_<

So true, ex10. Gee.....the motorcoach aided his immoral and predatory behavior that was HIDDEN from view. Gee.....the coffee AND drambuie assisted his alcoholic nature. The drambuie bottles were HIDDEN from view, yet even wierwille mentioned it a few times late at night when he taught the corps. Uuuugh.

I don't ever remember veepee or craig digging out the Numbers in Scripture for this verse......like they did over and over again for so many OTHER things. Could it be that this just didn't work to their favor????? Or, more to the point.....their agenda? Man, it's been awhile.......but if they HAD done it, wouldn't it look something like this AND one's manner of life either establishes or divides one from THE DOCTRINE? And, lest we forget..........martindale went on the longest speil documenting all the things that aligned with him being the SECOND president of twi. .....those TWO are for you, craig. Doctrine.................... #1 = unity / truth Manner of life............ #2 = establishes / divides Purpose.................... #3 = completeness Faith......................... #4 = number for the world Longsuffering............ #5 = grace Charity..................... #6 = number for man Patience.................... #7 = spiritual perfection

Yeah....and once people separate the simple truth ........FROM the adul-tree And, FROM the idola-tree And, FROM the way-tree The scales fall from their eyes and they can SEE it for what it really was/is. :blink:

Rev. Billy Graham.........now THERE IS A MAN of moral conscience and SPIRITUAL INTEGRITY. Wierwille was hiding in the shadows of sin nature.....seems like everytime his motorcoach hit the road. Uuuugh. A culthead...............

Absolutely..!!! If CONDUCT is unimportant..........WHY is there an couple of epistles to the Corinthian Church that targets the conduct, the defiling, the need for change, repentance and godly sorrow..??? If wierwille's "sexual prowess" was no big deal......WHY didn't he teach it in CFS? Why didn't he teach all the corps men this standard of "ministering to the women in your areas."????? HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS.............that's why.

Thanks...I appreciate it. Having been around Waydale and GS for eight years......it seems, vpw-defenders always take this same posturing and stance: 1) Wierwille's doctrine (most notably, in pfal)......look at ALL the good it did? OR 2) Wierwille's doctrine and his teachings.............what a faithful man???? BUT, what they disregard or flat-out deny is..... 3) What about wierwille's MANNER OF LIFE off-stage and in the motorcoach-mania phase? The Scriptures do NOT extend this sort of compartmentalizing of one's life. It runs at cross-purposes with all kinds of scriptures that highlight "that Christ be formed in you" and not just "a form of godliness." Side-stepping these issues is deceiving and being deceived.

Thanks Deciderator for your question. Who was deceiving who? Let's see........just to name a few. 1) Wierwille prefaced this class with statements like....."God told me that He'd teach me things that hadn't been known since the first centiry church if I'd teach them to others." Even Mrs. Wierwille, in her book entitled Born Again to Serve which was published in 1996, states that vpw was THRILLED after taking BG Leonard's class in 1953.....the same year wierwille "decided" to incorporate twi. What a coincidence. Don't know about you......but I'd call THAT deceiving. 2) "All the women in the kingdom BELONG to the king".......Really??? No biblical substantiation, no basis of truth....just a little "micky" slipped in there for later. Don't know about you......but I'd call THAT deceitful. After "planting this devilish seed" a whole mushroom culture of sexual exploitation and predation wherein the mog is the beneficiary of that evil doctrine. I'd call that deceiving. 3) "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ." Huh??????????????????????? How is it that Jesus Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul? How is it that the Age of Grace documents others who see or receive revelation FROM Jesus Christ? What about Stephen as he see Jesus STANDING....as Stephen endures persecution and death? 4) "You know what killed that little boy. You just quit your yakking. It was the FEAR in the heart and life of that mother that killed her little boy." One of the GREAT twistings of wierwille's "law of believing" to instill fear motivation and leverage his power and influence over his flock. And, yeah.......I think that I've become more SPIRITUALLY ACUTE to recognize this indoctrination and twisting of the Scriptures. How many more do you want, Deciderator? Should we talk about victor paul wierwille's MANNER OF LIFE now? Let's see.....58 year old GROPING GRANDPA wierwille was drugging and raping girls in his motorcoach and taught his inner cirls of men his exploits. Wierwille lashed out viciously, time and time again, intimidating and silencing his critics. Even men like JAL, Dubofxxx, and others YEARS LATER had the fortitude and courage to stand up and fess up. And Martindale was groomed in wierwille's image and more so......become at least two-fold the groper and womanizer that wierwille was. Wierwille "on his deathbed" wished he'd lived differently........how so? Because the guy KNEW his plundering of women, the deceptions, the lies, etc. etc. I have no doubts that wierwille was sorta apologizing or patronizing in his arrogant fashion once again. Wierwille's Ambassador One pilot abandoned wierwille and twi.....hmmmm? Wierwille's bodyguards and valets abandoned wierwille and twi.....hmmmm? Wierwille's trunk coordinators....HOW MANY?? ... 5 or 6 or 7....all abandoned twi.....hmmmm. I see a pattern here.......

Time and time again, the vpw-apologists take the stance that vpw's "doctrine" (i.e. pfal class) stands alone and should be exclusively embraced WITHOUT vpw's manner of life as an issue. BUT........when I read the Scriptures I find that this incongruous acceptance is UNACCEPTABLE in God's eyes. Without delving into the countless issues of things like 1) hypocrits, 2) deceivers, 3) seducers, 4) wolves in sheeps' clothing, 5) know them by their fruit, 6) leaven overtaking the whole lump, etc....I would like to make note of the following Scripture: I Timothy 3: 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity patience... Interesting how the apostle Paul's doctrine AND manner of life AND purpose AND faith AND longsuffering AND charity AND patience were [past tense] FULLY KNOWN by disciples and followers. Paul lived his life in open view for all to see. How many times do we see where THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE POWER OF GOD superceded any eloquent words of man? IMO, doctrine and manner of life are the "hammer and the anvil" that STRIKE FORCEFULLY against the adversary's realm to impact his evil kingdom. And, when a true minister lives blameless and upright in "the zone of godliness and true righteousness" THEN he/she is worthy of double honor. Then, he is a strong vessel fit for the Master's use. Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice, for all of mankind. He was THE MAN FOR ALL TIME, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God [Heb.10:12]. And, He was the new and living way that made my heart soar to the heavens and strengthened me to carry on his work of reconciling men and women back to God. When I read through accounts from threads like A few big things I learned in PFAL.......where one elevates the man, vpw, and "his doctrine".....I am reminded of the Scriptural references, "...there are contentions among you...Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ." Those of you that basically say, I am of Victor Paul Wierwille......aren't you DISSING aspects of pfal by your statements of allegiance? Yeah......I learned some good things in pfal. Yeah......at the time, I swallowed its whole -- hook, line and sinker. Young and naive and rebellious, I found a group that had a bigger-than-life zeal to "go and grow with God." And, I fully invested years (decades) into teaching and ministering to others in the valleys of life. Little did I realize that wierwille and his cronies were deceivers and being deceived. Clearly, I had no idea that wierwille was raping and drugging and pillaging the hearts and lives of young and innocent twi girls. BUT WHEN I BECAME A SPIRITUALLY ACUTE MAN.....I discarded much of pfal's indoctrinations that were based on private interpretation and innuendos and cliches and the following of a cult personality. And, what basic truths that I cleave to regarding the pfal class.....many of these truths were Scripturally-based and taught by Rev. BG Leonard, Kenyon, Stiles, and others. Regardless......this thread is one of highlighting DOCTRINE and the complementary fruit of MANNER OF LIFE. Seems to me, that God's Holy Writ bonds these TWO ASPECTS in an unbreakable hold to help His people discern good men from evil men, good doings from wrong-filled doings. And therefore......I do not understand how vpw-defenders can separate wierwille from his savage, sexual plundering of many women while at the same time, hold high the pfal class and all they "learned.".....................?????

Wierwille was born December 31, 1916........so if my math is correct, he was 58 years old when he was trying to "get girls" in his motorcoach in 1975. And, what's this crap about father-figure??? He11......more like A GROPING GRANDPA........and much worse.

How about adding some supportive evidence as well? Drambuie-drinking wierwille ---- often, mixed in his coffee while he taught the corps Women on the motorcoach ----- few men were ever "invited" to travel with vpw Martindale's confessions and lifestyle --- attributing things back to what vpw exhorted him to do Martindale's demise and ouster Thanks to men and women like P@ul and Fxrn Allen......and his computer skills to upstart WAYDALE and expose twi's manipulation and abuse.....AND slapping a law suit on Martindale and the gang of which was settled out of court to keep other sordid details from public consumption.... IMO, it shows that Wierwille groomed Martindale and the motorcoach-mania persisted.

As a husband and father, I believe............Wierwille's predation on these young girls is sickening. What father cannot understand how damaging sexual predators could or can be to their daughter, their family unit..????? As a Christian believer, I believe...............Wierwille and his inner circle of valets, drivers and silencers have engaged in a networking of sexual exploitation and spiritual abuse that is far beyond the "little sins" and mistakes. God will hold wierwille and his cohorts accountable for these deplorable acts. As a former twi-clergyman, I detest...........my clergy association with Wierwille and his cronies. In every sense of the Scriptures and the double-honor due to "blameless servitude to God's elect"......these predators are vile and dishonorable and deplorable. Time and time again, the Scriptures speak about "the widows" [i.e. do NOT take unfair advantage over them] or God's wrath will be upon you. Well, I tend to believe that God holds the same standard towards young girls who trust ministers with their lives and spiritual growth...AND that God's firm judgements will mete His disdain for such predation in the Church. CLEARLY.......not all men think like some who've voiced their opinions on this thread, thank God. My prayers go out to you women....and others who don't come to GS....who continue to overcome the hurt, the abuse, the mental turmoil and thousands of other conflicts that are associated with spiritual and sexual abuse. May God give you women front row seats and treats as He showers you with His love. :)

IF...."having the true word" was simply limited to academic study and tracking every truth back to the pfal series....THEN why have CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY? I mean, really, if mastery of biblical study and intellect is the in-filling of spiritual summits, and a disregard for holy spirit within is commonplace... THEN what about all those Book of Acts experiences of Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Stephen, Cornelius, etc.? How did wierwille phrase it in pfal......"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ." Absent Christ?????? Didn't Paul of Tarsus see Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus? And, didn't he receive holy spirit and walk in God's power? And, didn't Paul receive revelation BY Jesus Christ? And, didn't Paul receive the truths of this Age of Grace via holy spirit from God moved within him? Cliches are debunk of authority. Take that "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" off your refrigerator and trash it. It's a loaded cliche that helps to push wierwille's private interpretation and skew the TRUE ESSENCE OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE INCARNATE WORD, AND THE WRITTEN REVELATION FROM GOD'S HOLY MEN.

Did I witness vpw's "snow on the gas pumps"?....................NO Did I witness vpw's trip to India?........................................NO Did I witness vpw's in-depth study of the scriptures?............NO Did I witness any of vpw's stories of learning revelation?.....NO Did I witness vpw's intimate walk with God?........................NO Did I witness vpw's filming of the pfal class?........................NO, but I sat through that class several times and, now, I'm not sure if vpw had an earpiece wherein someone else was telling him what to say, or if a teleprompter was used......in fact, I'm not really sure if that guy with a skinny tie is vpw at all. <_<

Rascal........I agree. These actions, from 55 year-old men, are nothing more than despicable deception and dominance. Just sickos with narcistic traits and predatory appetites. False prophet seems to be an apt description.........deceiving, lying, conning, seducing, etc. And, further.......it only backs up all evidence that wierwille STOLE his teaching material from others. Heck, he never worked it from the depth of the scriptures and "made it his own." And, as far as holy spirit stirring within him to bear witness of God's work wrought in his ministry........WHAT A CROCK. If the motorcoach could talk...........???? :blink:

........in harms way???? Wasn't she going to be with wierwille..?? :blink: :blink:

Well....I think that some of the wonderful things that I learned from the SCRIPTURES is that the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: and they they which SO SUCH THINGS shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Telling isn't it...???? After wierwille had built his yes-men enclave (a subset of corps leadership)...and had a motorcoach to conceal his lusts/predation....and cunningly crafted his stage persona....HIS UNBRIDLED, SELF-GRATIFICATION CAME TO THE FOREFRONT. You vpw-defenders can hold onto your idol-like adulation for wierwille all you want, but you are only deceiving yourselves. Personally, I don't give a d@mn. I spent 24 years defending twi and the man who taught me pfal......yet, before a court of law I can honestly say that I suppressed DOZENS OF INCIDENTS that were very questionable behavior, and outlandish reproof sessions that made me secretly think that wierwille was periodically possessed by devil spirits. I've shared THREE such incidents on GS before....so I'll refrain from them. And, yes.....I've been on the receiving end of wierwille's contempt and thrashing reproof. It wasn't pretty...and I can't imagine what it must have been like for those girls who wierwille raped...!!!!! Imagine....22 years of silence, a wonderful family broken by wierwille and his silencers, verbally attacking catcup (a corps student requesting answers)......TALK ABOUT SHATTERING THE SILENCE OF A CULT'S PREDATION AMONG US...!!! Catcup.....thanks for your contributions to GS. I appreciate it and have always been impressed by strength and warmth to encourage others. Thanks again.

And......it SOUNDS LIKE you are trying to esteem Wierwille and discredit Leonard and exclude Leonard's teachings and guidance when wierwille was distraught, confused and ready to quit "his ministry" and find secular employment. Mrs. Wierwille writes...........he (vp) was thrilled after sitting through B.G.'s class and, after sitting through it a second time in June/July of 1953, he (vp) rushed home to Ohio and started signing up others for "his" October class.

So true, ex10. From where I sit today, wierwille did a masterful job of marketing pfal and giving us the ole switcheroo. He lamblasted churches and private interpretation and following after the right-reverend-so-and-so.......AND THEN, closed out "his class" with a grandeur statement of "Just write THE TEACHER." Wierwille was over a thousand miles away from me.......but I DID SEE how the wow ambassadors loved and lived what truth they knew. I DID SEE how the wows fought for us and pointed out some of the snares and pitfalls of the devil. I DID SEE how the wows cared for the sick and feeble and faint of heart. And, from this.... I transferred my respect from these LIVING EPISTLES to a man in Ohio that I didn't know from Adam. I gave wierwille (and others) FAR TOO MUCH RESPECT than he (or they) deserved......simply because wierwille had robbed Rev. B.G. Leonard's class and taught it to others. In hindsight, I see how twi's "the word" is triggered with buzz words and cliches......RATHER than a full reckoning and disclosure of biblical truths. Imagine, taking a bible class that highlighted THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH BELIEVERS and not esteeming our Lord Jesus in his proper, elevated, seated at God's right hand, position as Head of the One Body?? Yeppers, I'd say that our allegiances were subtly derailed and we were led down the mystery train of tunnels and horrors. Ever notice, that even to this day......vpw-apologists will NOT veer from wierwille's cliches. They staunchly repeat them and hold them in high regard, even when these generic cliches have SO MUCH AMBIGUITY IN THEM. <_<

Sure, we've heard the familiar cliches.... "God said it, that settles it." "God said it, that settles it......I believe it." "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." But what about specificall having the Word.....living the Word.....pleasing to God.......upright and righteous before God? Surely, it's not just an academic exercise? After all, we're not just talking about mental gymnastic of "renewing the mind"....if one is to stand APPROVED OF GOD.......?? Clearly, the bible is full of examples and illustrations of LIVING the truth......i.e. 1) walk in love, 2) walk in light and 3) walk circumspectly. Hundreds of other examples, I know. Ephesians --- emphasis on spiritual doctrine / emphasis on living at this "spiritual level." RIGHT doctrine PLUS the RIGHT application/practice = the rightly divided Word. :)