skyrider

Maybe.......some of us (me too -- at times) are stuck in black/white thinking? I don't see anything in those verses about DWELLING ON THE PAST......I might just have to look into that word "forgetting" a little closer. Seems more like "moving away from the things in the past" and REACHING FORTH.... BESIDES.........How many times does God bring into remembrance Moses and THE Exodus out of Egypt? IIRC its like 40 times (lots!)..??? Yeah.....REMEMBER Moses, the Pharoah, the taskmasters, the toil, the grievances, the Red sea, and GOD'S DELIVERANCE OF HIS PEOPLE..!!!!! Hmmmmm......Am I "dwelling on the past" when I come to Greasespot about 4 hours a week to talk about twi and help undo the heavy burdens??? Or..................Am I "visiting some past experiences" to understand how I was deceived and the manner in which I was deceived and, in turn, help others?? Gee.....I've gone WEEKS without posting on GS and rarily gave twi a second thought. Not quite sure I'd call that DWELLING..?? Visiting the past.........yes. Dwelling on the past....no.

Everyone..????????????????????? My, oh my....you sure are painting with a broad brush. Months ago, I started a thread entitled....The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. That thread ran for quite awhile and lots of "good from twi" was documented. Other threads have had the same flavor thru the YEARS. IMO, this thread just tended to veer off course when some attitudes came on board. It happens....when conversations are grounded by those with strong opinions. I've stated several times that I've received some good from pfal........I've also stated several times that I highly detested the CORPS INDOCTRINATION. Wierwille was intricately involved in both. And, for the record.......I've seen several change some of those "fixed opinions" here at GS. So, I'm quite sure that labeling "everyone" in the same container has a high degree of stereotyping to it. I love the dialogue...the back-and-forth opinions....SOMETHING NOT TOLERATED in twi. Have a nice day...........everyone!!! :)

One of the problems with this slogan, cliche, mantra..........is that far removed from its context in pfal, its ambiguity has no real meaning. IIRC in the pfal format, vpw was talking about the importance of studying the Scripture and no reading around it by this commentary and that article, and this guy and that Dr. so-and-so. 40 years removed from its pfal filming ---- "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" ---- this cliche has been butchered hundreds of times AND leveraged against believers to refrain from independent study/research and....dadgummit, just re-research pfal. After the 1978 episode wherein wierwille and martindale confronted three 8th corps guys and their research work...... MORE INTENSE SCRUTINY from the bigwigs to keep others "within the framework of wierwille's pfal class material." Emphatically, corps were told to keep their thinking and research papers bordered around work that vpw had already done..!!! So........as things evolved, IT REALLY WASN'T The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...in its slight-of-hand reference, it really meant..."It's PFAL, PFAL and nothing but PFAL." Add to this the absent-Christ doctrine in twi.........and WIERWILLE WAS SHELVING MUCH OF THE WHOLE TRUTH that true believers are to abide in. Check out the Book of Acts and see if Jesus Christ is absent!!! Guess I just never believed in the wholesale indoctrination of academic/bible study as an end-all approach to God's approval. YMMV

What The Hey, In the context of our conversation, Hamm and I were posting on the Dateline scenario....where the Dallas woman had a dark side and kept moving from place to place. Years later, she moved into a North Carolina community and was siphoning off finances from a little old lady and others in the church. Hamm commented on the pastor's duties; his purpose to protect the flock. The following is the context: After a couple of sarcastic remarks, you state......."I prefer to club my own wolves, thank you." Context, wth......these church people in North Carolina might NEED a pastor (a shepherd) who helps them and protects the the people. Obviously, you o' wise one....don't. <_< PS ......just another arrogant answer by mr. pfal enthusiast. Can't even read it IN THE CONTEXT......yeah, you learned alot in pfal.

This may be totally off base...........BUT hasn't CES been around for about 20 years? Didn't JAL and those folks break away from twi in 1987? And, doesn't CES have a "Freedom Camp" or campground property near Bloomington, IN? Some more acquainted with CES here would be able to answer these questions. I have no idea if CES is running family camps at their location. Nor do I have any idea if they have an outreach program that would be of interest to 18 year olds.

Yeah......on NBC's Dateline last night, they detailed this Dallas woman's life and her dark side. Long story short......husband went missing, later found dead in OKC, detectives couldn't pin the murder on her, she gets insurance money, remarries, divorces the guy, more money...moves and stays on the prowl to find rich men in California, buys another home.....keeps staying one step ahead of justice At age 62, she starts up a scam as a Christian woman waiting to go on a mission trip, has plenty of pictures of African kids, gives detailed examples of "healings and miracles", moves in with an older lady, redirects her SS checks to her own account, and is siphoning off her other accounts, etc. etc. Those in her local church in North Carolina were totally fooled.

ex10.......could it be that vpw went into the ministry work for the wrong reasons [i.e. to wield authority over people]. Just seems like Mrs. Wierwille's book, as well, documents how his many early years of ministry work were frustration and disappointment because he had relatively few followers. So much of wierwille points to.....authority, control, power. <_<

Yeah.......ever-learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Crumbs and morsels of truth....yes. Little slices, here and there.......yes. But side-stepping....... Jesus Christ....THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life we were led to pursue after "the more abundant life" [prosperity and health and knowledge]. That hardly qualifies as "accurate" knowledge. <_<

Yes......there was a time when The Class Instructor was given the distinct honor, privilege and responsibility to guard and present the pfal class in his/her area. When things started going south in 1987/88......many were confiscating or acquiring bootlegged copies of pfal as if they, like the Levitical priests of old, were carrying the ark of the covenant before them. For indeed, it was the pfal class...and only the pfal class....that contained The Word, the "tablets of stone." That was the zeal and spiritual fervor at the time. <_<

The dichotomy in wierwille's life -- what he said in public contrasted with what he DID in private -- continues to be a fascinating study on so many levels. At present, I do think that wierwille was born-again and chose the ministerial route from his childhood experiences of his New Knoxville preacher, Dr. Kunst. Basing my premise on this, perhaps it was more about the wielding of authority that young wierwille perceived and NOT the genuine love and concern for the Scriptures and to help others? Anyways......a side issue comes to mind: one that has always perplexed me. I'd sat through pfal classes enough to hear the "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai" many a time by wierwille. Then.....when wierwille taught at PFAL '77 he gets to that point in the class where he demonstrates speaking in tongues. And, lo and behold, when wierwille starts speaking in tongues.......AGAIN, it's "lo shanta malakeseto, lo shantai." It just sounded so repetitive. :blink: And, I swear.......wierwille came to Emporia to teach the corps in 1978/79 and, when he got to "displaying" the greatness of speaking in tongues..........AGAIN, "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai." Sorry, I just never saw the depth or power of those nine manifestations IN HIS LIFE......beginning with speaking in tongues.

That thought has crossed my mind a few times too. It would be interesting to see HOW MANY sexual innuendoes are in pfal. "All the women in the kingdom BELONG to the king" is another. "Take off my coat, and then my tie.....pretty soon we'd get down to the BARE facts" is yet another (sort of). Any more??????????????????

I'm not sure I get it either. Maybe......when vpw states in pfal, "I'd have to read it word for word and line by line BEFORE I'd ever think about calling the great apostle Paul a sex pervert."....could be it's a subconscious thing? Besides, even if there were DNA samples......the next doubter would just say, "Yeah, and how do we know that the samples weren't switched or tainted?" <_<

For the longest time, I kept wierwille on an untouchable pedestal. Even though I'd seen his outbursts of anger, his degradation of women, his porno movie, his drambuie bottles, his staying in his motorcoach while on the "wierwille blacktop," his mens'club hangout near wierwille barn, his telling a way production girl to "throw her boobs out when she moved," three major scream-fests that left those men to be scraped off the floor,.........and yet, I just refused to believe that he drugged and raped girls. But.....about 12 years ago, I too had heard "some stories" in detail coming from a couple of my corps sisters. And now, having distanced myself from twi....and coming into contact with many who left years ago, I run across more and more accounts.

ConcernedUncle, A few months ago, a GS poster let us know that The Way International's Camp Gunnison near Gunnison, Colorado was going to start using this property for their "family camps." In the past, they always endeavor to stress "family" and "household" and "sanctified" and such at these events. Clearly, from your observations there was an abrupt departure from their normal behavior AFTER arriving home from this camp setting. And, of course....it is disturbing to see your niece depart with very little explanation. As others have stated, this type of behavior has all the markings of cult mentality. And, if you are unfamiliar with such ......google cults or cult recovery or go to your nearest bookstore and get a copy of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. It will enlighten your understanding greatly. Statistics confirm that many times its the good-hearted, sincere individual that falls prey to cults. People like this just want to help and are out-going and searching for ways to help others. Stay strong and if there is anything I can do to assist you, please PM me. Take care......and do not take it personal. God bless you. You are in my prayers.

I totally agree with this. Gee........wonder why God wanted Paul to write and reprove "the negatives and immoral conduct" in the Corinthian Church. How unChristian like of Paul to write it......and 2000 years later, I learn from it????? Maybe, we should cut out all references in the Scriptures of evils and deceptions that hurt people. Then we could saturate our brains with flowers and puppy dogs.....and live in a state of utopia and DENIAL. Or, maybe.......we should just sit around and sing kumbiyah around the campfire and praise wierwille's name for having slaved night and day to graciously extend the pfal class.....where every word is dipped in silver, purified seven times and spoken from his holy lips. And, further.....why not just go back to twi and honor them with your time and 15% of your income. Why are all of the vpw-defenders here.......OUT and AWAY from twi...???? You're welcome. :)

Deciderator.......I just got back from a few hours of work and thought I'd comment on your quantum leaps of illogic and misappropriate comparisons. 1) On one hand........you give high salutes to vpw and his pfal class; yet, on the other hand.....you sound like you cannot connect the dots that wierwille founded and endorsed the corps leadership program. 2) You "diss" leadership......but the Scriptures document it from Genesis and onward. 3) You fail to see that corps leaders were FOLLOWING THEIR LEADER............vpw. 4) To you, this information is "sour grapes".....to others, it's a nice glass of wine. :) 5) You keep repeating that "you only want the word".......yet, holy men (leaders) of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit. How would you even have "the word" without leaders? 6) You seem to begrudge leadership.....but in turn, you want to move the word. Doesn't that somehow imply that you'll be leading others into the new birth and gently leading them forward? 7) You talk about dishonesty............and compartmentalize your twi experiences. I choose to discuss the good, the bad and the ugly. Having spent 24 years in twi.......I've got plenty more to say. 8) You may not want to hear this stuff............others do. 9) You bring up the Duke Lacrosse incident with the stripper's testimony.... Wow, that's a stretch to try and bring in that comparison with some of us who've spent thousands of hours laboring to hold forth the gospel. But hey.........that's just how I roll.

Deciderator.....I hear where you are coming from. I really do. But.....one doesn't journey very far into God's Word without SEEING GOD'S DESIGN for proper oversight and organization amongst His people. It's everywhere.....Old Testament and New. Exodus 18:19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give theee counsel and God shall be with thee... Exodus 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. They need to reverence God and be men of truth......not micro-managers and legalists and busybodies and slime balls. :)

Thanks WW Yeah.....even W@de saw things as early as 1968 or so...and split out. And, his ministry and work continues to this day.......loving the Lord and teaching the brethren. Regarding Wolfgang......thanks for the correction. Maybe, it was the early 90s....but I distinctly remember hearing some europeans that he'd put more distance between his German work and Gartmore. Whatever...it's just another side issue among so many.

Reminds me of Acts 15. When Paul and Barnabus traveled among the small fellowships and gatherings......."declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren [v. 3]." BUT......when Paul and Barnabus got to Jerusalem and were to meet with "the brass" THAT IS WHEN it was necessary to confront the wrong doctrines, the contentions and malice that were creeping into the Church of God. Leaders needed to confront other leaders.....and to confront the growing legalism. In twi, wierwille set up a pyramid structure and drove off any schism, any critiquing.......heck, didn't Pxter J. W@de split away from vpw in 1968? Martindale followed in the same mog-revered structure.....so did geer. The legalism continued to grow and grow......any leader who opposed the mog was shouted down, driven off. The europeans have said the same about geer's thing at gartmore. I know Wolfgang S.....the German country coordinator split off from geer's leadership around 1987 (?). Same deal. Yeah.....we talk about God's Word. But.......when it's time to deal with Acts 15 stuff, then LEADERS should have rolled up their sleeves and dealt with it. Even Geer's POP has NO CREDIBILITY OF CHURCH DIALOGUE AND OPEN CONFRONTATION. Just same deal, different mog, different shift of authority.

Yeah.....this understanding comes in layers, like peeling off the outer layers of an onion. And, the more one keeps peeling the layers away, the stronger the odor as one gets to its core. Another thing about processing this information...........some of us corps invested DECADES into twi, moving here and there, taking corps assignments to help "move God's Word" and strengthen the ministry work. But when the cloak of wierwille's "ministry" and his personal life is viewed FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF TIME AND DISTANCE, it is disturbing to see the lies and deception. THEN.........to see that once we've removed ourselves from this cult allegiance, our endeavors to reconnect with our parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc. More than likely, our grandparents died and we didn't even go to the funerals.....since we followed the mog's rules. Yeah.........it's MY life now. Sometimes, I'm reminded of that song.......where the lyrics go, "He can't even run his own life, be d@mned if he'll run MINE. That's how I feel today.

dmiller.....yep, its true. Just a brief timeline.......Wierwille received this motorcycle and sidecar in 1982. With this gift from the believers, vpw and mrs. wanted to do a few short trips to visit fellowships, get away from hq, etc. I was working on hq staff during these years and this motorcycle was brought into the warehouse where it was tucked away behind a spray booth enclosure. Five or six guys -- mostly the Flight Services guys, the ones with detailing and spray painting/coating experience -- were involved in this extremely tight-lipped task to restore this motorcycle back to its original condition, or better. I saw vp's motorcycle in this booth and eye-witnessed that it had so damage (just in case someone here thinks its hearsay). Apparently, wierwille was in Ontario and at a slow rate of speed laid the motorcycle over at an intersection. With the weight and all, it crumpled up the front fender and scuffed up the side and gas tank area. Again, no major damage.....but certainly, it needed repair and paint work. Why such secrecy??? Why the cover-up??? IMO, .....again, it was just one of image and perception. Wierwille got what wierwille wanted.......and he must have sworn his aides and staff workers to silence. I certainly found out in secret.......and was told to do likewise. :unsure:

Yes..........and upon his 7th corps graduation, Chris and Barbara were assigned to Vpw's and Mrs. personal duties......valet, bus driver, bodyguard, messenger, gate-keeper, etc. Chris and Barbara had minutely studied vpw's eating habits, likes and dislikes, coffee-drambuie sipping, type of china used, mints snaped in two, how to handle tick, reading the same types of books as vpw, etc. etc. Chris was one who took this over-the-top mog worship to new levels. Guess its not all that surprising that wierwille gave him a whole continent to oversee....since neither his ego or craig's ego could be in the same room together without conflict.

Excellent point, ex10

ex10.....yes, it gives me a dull headache as well. Sure, wierwille can point the finger at craig and say, he didn't come around seeking vpw's advice. But then...... Living Victoriously and the 40th Anniversary and the MOTORCYCLE GIFT from believers was a thank you / kick-back and enjoy some leisure time gift....wasn't it? Wierwille starts having more eye problems......Wierwille wrecks the motorcycle in Canada. Under secrecy, the motorcycle is hauled back to hq and repaired in the most hush/hush environment. Time passes....and wierwille and his passion of motorcycle riding is collaberated on doing a TWO THOUSAND MILE trip (???) to Montana/Canada and seeing some believers along the way. What was martindale supposed to do? Phone him and keep him updated on things? Just goes to show how wierwille HATED to relinquish control of "his ministry." Now, he was no longer in the spotlight........... So he sulks and heads to see Geer.........?? Of course, he has to "spiritualize it" and say that "the trustees had forsaken the Word"........when all along, the corporate entity was simply doing business as usual.

Sunesis.........gee, it probably would have to be divided into THREE GROUPINGS: 1) Tier One Twi-Offshoots.......Geer Group, STI, CFF, D. Sides, Finneg@n, Ruud, Seed, Sann, and a few others 2) Tier Two...........................Belize group, P@nnarello, other big names, geer franchises?, others moving up 3) Tier Three........................small independent fellowships, vpw-defender holdouts, etc. How many????? Geeze, who knows, or cares? Kinda like photocopying a "grainy image to start".........then, copy it....and copy it.....and copy it.....and copy it ....and copy it........and sell it....and sell it.......and sell it.....and sell it. All in the name of "preserving the word."