skyrider

All this stuff.......answering to WD.......is ludicrous. Who is he, anyway??? He never went WOW. He never went into the Corps. So.....he stayed in Kansas (???) and ran a fellowship and took the adv class. So.......????? Sorry......it just seems all too ridiculous to me that he is some type of "standard."

Quote from WD: Yes, at least the media is accountable to a degree for their reporting. YET............I sat through dozens of corps meetings/ staff meetings where WIERWILLE or MARTINDALE totally trashed the corps/staff person leaving. Whatever they said didn't have to have one bit of factual evidence!! None. Zippo. Nada. Wierwille could label an exitee as a "cop out".....or "possessed as a new boot in hell"......and the wierwille-followers hung on his every word. After all, he was the mog......and surely, HE wouldn't lie. Martindale took his character assassination speil to new heights.......heck, he'd trash the reputation of some corps person who had just died!! Martindale would dredge up some little incident from their past (true or not.... who would know?)......and then, build a "mountain of evidence" around it. Or, if a high-profile corps leader exited twi........the accusations and made-up sh1t escalated proportionately. And, Geer.......in his poop paper called the trustees "murderers." In August 1986, when I talked face-to-face with Ricardo about this accusation........Ricardo explained the incident in detail, and passed it off as Geer's interpretation in exagerated terminology. Thank you Greasespotters for keeping your accountability and integrity HIGHER than what I evidenced from wierwille, martindale or geer.

Gee, WD..........you keep bringing up "rights" and "verdicts" and legal stuff.......BUT did you not see what the Apostle Paul initiated to the Church? When things were COMMONLY REPORTED......Paul dealt with it. When things were COMMONLY REPORTED......Paul wasn't wishy-washy with legal terminology and dna evidence. When things were COMMONLY REPORTED......Paul saw a pattern of evil and exposed it. With twi.........wierwille "created an environment" of LOCKBOX, INNER-CIRCLE SECRETS, THE SPIRITUALLY-MATURE DOCTRINE TO HANDLE SEX, THE DOG-PORN FLICK, ACCESS TO CORPS GIRLS. Side-step it all you want.............it happened. Go ahead [edited to remove ad hominem argument]

Honest fair and balanced rights for all....???? Yeah, riiiiight. Wierwille had stacked the deck to HIS favor: .......1) His authority and presence totally intimidated most young corps girls. .......2) His inner-circle prepared other girls for "the experience" .......3) He studied those "From Birth to Corps" papers and preyed on the vulnerable. .......4) His motorcoach was an "inner-sanctum snake pit" of exploitation and abuse. .......5) His bodyguards and aides were groomed to secrecy and seduction. .......6) Wierwille trashed the reputation of all who opposed him with the "possessed" label. .......7) Wierwille died prematurely.....perhaps, conveniently or he would have had his day in court. .......8) Wierwille showed his porno-dog flick for public consumption on several occasions....... .......9) Wierwille pushed behavior modification techniques in his "renewed mind/ lockbox" .......10) Wierwille taught martindale to be "MORE" than he was........yikes!!! So....WD, run that by me once again. "Honest fair and balanced rights"................ :blink:

WhiteDove.......for one who seems to hold to Christian truths and ethics, you seem to be taking the non-Christian approach toward such matters. Have you not read......?? It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife [1 Cor. 5:1]. Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints [1 Cor. 6:1]. Sure.....go ahead and talk about DNA evidence, eye-witness accounts, etc. etc. All your legal mumbo-jumbo does NOT even begin to counter THE COMMONLY REPORTED SEXUAL PREDATION WITHIN TWI by your beloved wierwille, and later martindale.....imo. Besides......many of these (corps) women are talking about sexual predation IN A CULT, IN THE BACK BEDROOM OF THE MOG'S MOTORCOACH, WITH BODYGUARD STATIONED OUTSIDE THE MOTORCOACH KEEPING WATCH, IN THE 70'S OR EARLY 80'S..............and for those who refused wierwille's "advances" or pi$$ed off by what had just occurred, she was given the bum's rush and sent packing in the middle of the night, traumatized by the whole ordeal and had to re-live the whole ordeal if she went to the local authorities (new knoxville? emporia? rome city? gunnison? nowhere?) where the locals pegged twi as a cult environment.......AND not too much dna evidence was talked about 30 years ago. Go ahead, WhiteDove........stay on your legal-beagle track of semantics and legal terminology......BUT even the Apostle Paul dealt with things that were REPORTED COMMONLY AMONG THE SAINTS. Seems to me, WhiteDove.....that you like to dance around on both sides of the issue.....always favoring your beloved pfal and twi memories. Yet, having NEVER BEEN WOW OR CORPS......YOU HAVE NO IDEA the human dynamics involved, nor the immense psychological and emotional entanglements that were built-in to these programs via peer pressure and the isolated cult environment.

Bumped to the front...... Someone was asking..... :)

Thanks for bringing this thread to the present......it's the first time I've read thru it. So much has been covered in this thread...as is noted: BUT.......why does this adultery issue ONLY have to be covered in pfal? When wierwille taught pfal, he was like 51 years old......and seasoned in arrogance and lusts. Wierwille failed to herald sound doctrine on adultery on SNS teachings.......... Wierwille failed to take a strong stand on adultery with corps in such "co-ed" living conditions......... Wierwille sent WOWs on the field with very little screening and preparation to live together and handle the myriad of situations that arise in the real issues of practical living. Why didn't the "mog -- with his spiritual oversight" SEE the hurt/destruction from NOT teaching this?..... Why didn't the "mog" teach, in detail, from the Scriptures areas regarding temptation, or personal boundaries, or sexual sins, or abusive behavior......or have veteran leadership to handle accusations or grievances?? Again.....and again.....and again.....threads like this vividly illustrate how inept and debased twi was to really help people.......let alone, lead them to spiritual victorious living. <_<

DWBH......yeah, even with skillful editing....Mrs. W and Karen could only marginalize vpw's past to a certain degree and still keep "vic's stories" from full-scale scrutiny. It is rather obvious.....at least, to anyone who was deeply vested into the twi machinery.....that Mrs. W's book is a whitewashing of past recollections for public consumption and twi legacy. IMO, the 1996 Board of Trustees.....Craig, Don and Howard......did NOT realize how this publication exposes discrepancies and flat-out lies of vpw's chest-thumping claims. Plus, it lays out the timeline of vic's youth and learning......and thereby, SHOWING HOW he car-jacked BG Leonard's class in 1953. 1) Vic goes to Calgary, Alberta......sits thru BG Leonard's class "Gifts of the Spirit" .......Feb 1953 2) Vic, Mrs. Don & others drive up to Canada to sit thru Leonard's class........................Jun/Jul 1953 3) Vic goes home, promotes & signs up friends, relatives, neighbors for "his class" .......Oct 1953 Note: The grads of Leonard's class are considered grads for "wierwille's class." Yes, Mrs. Wierwille worked diligently to conceal much of vpw's past.......piecing together after-the-fact reasonings with the past baby-steps. Plus, it vividly highlights a number of mens' ministries in operation with scores of truths in print, in teachings, or public radio. And, in doing so.......this book shows that relatively NOTHING vic did was original........or worthy of "The Man of God for our day and time" status. Mrs. Wierwille's book DEBUNKS the twi-hype and household doctrines.

Here are *some* details of Mrs. Wierwille's book.....Born Again to Serve For those who were asking........

One thread that discusses *some* of Mrs. Wierwille's book in details is..... Outreach beyond vpw's congregation I am bumping it to the front.

WW.......it is quite telling that TWI'S FOREMOST BIOGRAPHY OF VP WIERWILLE --- researched extensively through hundreds and hundreds of pages of twi history and then, written by Mrs. Wierwille with assistance from daughter Karen.......and many of these wierwille-defenders have never read it.!!!

I hear what you are saying....Rascal. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, handles MANY, MANY aspects of young wierwille's childhood, his upbringing, his character, his education, and the MANY men who mentored him. Clearly, Mrs. Wierwille's accounting of twi's history is written documentation and undisputable evidence that twi's board of trustees endorsed for this 1996 publication. Many times, I reference this written documentation. But.........conveniently, all wierwille-defenders never address my posts. Interestingly, they "bury" my post behind a blizzard of what wierwille said about "only God teaching him"......or "the snowstorm in Tulsa".........or "how wierwille put the Word together".......ad infinitum. Interestingly......wierwille-defenders are fixated on the wierwille persona above all else. Wouldn't Mrs. Wierwille and daughter Karen be the UTMOST AUTHORITIES TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF VP WIERWILLE? Mrs. Wierwille's book, a twi biography that materialized after 11 years (Wierwille died in 1985).......documents the struggle of young wierwille, the period where he wanted to quit, the finding of BG Leonard's class and then teaching it as his own in October 1953, the leaving of the Van Wert Church in 1957, etc. etc. HOW CAN ANYONE DISPUTE ALL THIS WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION.......and subscribe to wierwille's grandeur boastings and vaunted ego simply shows the persuations of a cult of personality. And.......if wierwille-defenders cannot RE-search *the facts* of twi's history, how can these people even possibly post accurate information????????? <_<

Thanks DontWorry........for stepping forward to assist the All3ns and be deposed by their lawyer......and thereby, jolting twi's spin efforts with the major blow of martindale's resignation and ousting. And, in bold-type..........unverifiable?? INDEED.

Personally..............I gotta tell ya........I find all this talk about WD's "standard for truths/facts" to be off-the-charts of ridiculously absurd...... Why? If WD is running a Geerite fellowship, and therefore NOT standing with twi........TWI LABELS WD POZZEZZED / A COP-OUT / A GREASESPOT. SEE........twi uses the SAME TACTIC AGAINST HIM......i.e. they ASSUME their "standard" is THE STANDARD. Twi cannot be convinced otherwise........WD is a cop-out. WD cannot be convinced otherwise.........all postings & eye-witness accounts need written proof. Whatever.......it's like a cyclical argument. It just spins and spins.....depending on "the spinner."

Exactly...!!! There are REASONS......why the corps numbers PLUNGED INTO THE BASEMENT after the initial hype and youthful exuberance passed. There are REASONS......why many corps exited twi just weeks AFTER THEIR GRADUATION. There are REASONS......why it's taken years for SEXUALLY ABUSED WOMEN TO COME FORWARD AND SPEAK OUT. There are REASONS......why twi, even to this day, has to stay cemented to "a cult of personality" and promote this year's theme: Your Power for Abundant Living.

Ummm......some are STILL exiting twi and moving on with their lives. Just recently, a family that I know had had their fill of rules and regs from twi.......and decided it was best to leave behind this oppressive situation. Ummm......looks like CES/STI is in upheaval with their momentus and personal prophecy and lawsuit. Nothing??.......c'mon, you've been posting for quite a few years now. And, it's true that you never went WOW or Corps or worked at HQ........right? And......you run a home fellowship. See......I know a few things about you. :)

Johniam.....it has nothing to do with being "threatened" One of the things I find so intriguing.....is when someone voices an adamant opinion of wierwille/twi and YET, is so limited in exposure or experience of twi's programs and/or hq itself. When directly questioned, many of WD's answers are soooo generic.......further exposing his ill-perceived pov. And, even when full-scale exposure is introduced by DontWorryBeHappy......obviously portraying first-hand, eye-witness accounts of his dealings with wierwille, geer, lcm and others.......still, there is a skirking of these credible accounts. I wanted to address these issues without derailing the other thread. :)

IMO.....it's NOT a matter of liking or disliking, but rather SEEING TWI FROM MULTI-VARIED POINTS OF VIEW. It is clear from some posters that their opinions and experiences of twi are based on a very limited range of exposure and experiences......sure, they may have *read the propaganda* and stuff.....but never saw first-hand accounts of twi's programs. For those who went WOW........that experience alone gives one insight into the sign-up procedure, the wow training after the roa, the complex issues of working together with *stangers* for a common goal, living experiences, work issues, nightly twigs, 20-25 hours of weekly witnessing, etc. etc. etc. If one stayed the full year.......it's no wonder why the wow vet identifies with his blue wow pin as an "earned reward/possession." And, for those who went Corps.....well, the many threads on GS detail the intensity of corps training from face-melting confrontations, to LEAD, to wierwille's motorcoach predation, to conspiracy theories, to wierwille-mog indoctrination, to yearly assignments and never able to leave the corps without a full-frontal gut-stripping and public character assassination. Lest we forget.......the man who was "the teacher in pfal".....was ALSO the man spear-heading the wow program and the "school-of-tyrannus" corps training. So.......for MANY who come to GS.......we see VAST CHASMS of inconsistencies, hidden hypocrisies, and an abusive core that permeated the founder of twi. WD.....like a rock, you've stayed put and steadfast on the "spiritual ground" that surrounds you. And, for you, it is unchanging and you've built your world around it. BUT........when you look at the hundreds and hundreds of accounts on GS that contradict your little corner of the universe, ANOTHER TWI EMERGES that was running parallel with your past experiences all along. You can discount them all you like......but they are THERE. For those of us who desire to see Christ-like compassion manifested to our brothers and sisters.......I'm thankful for GS and all who want to help undo the heavy burdens, to heal the broken-hearted, to expose the snares, to set the (twiers and ex-twiers) captives free. Have a good day.

If one wants to stay close to their family roots....or stay put for career choices.....or stay in the warm weather, fine. It's your life. Your choices. But please.....don't come to GS and lecture others of "how good twi was".....especially when you didn't go WOW or Corps or HQ Staff or take yearly assignments. Sure, maybe in your small pocket of the universe it was fun and loving and few ventured beyond their comfort zones. Good for you......and enjoy those memories. YET.........Some of us SAW wierwille up close and personal and saw many facets of twi ......yet, STAYED TO HELP MINISTER TO OTHERS AND TRY TO FIX THE PROBLEMS. No, I didn't understand how deeply tainted the problems were/are.......but nonetheless, I stayed "in the fight" until I believe that God wanted me out. Yeah......I left college and was "off to see wierwille, the wonderful wierwille of oz."

It seems to be the ONLY corner where WD can stand.....without walking across the newly-painted floor and exposing such foolish actions.

Kinda generic answer.......isn't it? "I would not profess that everything we learned was *the right way".........no sheet sherlock. "I have never stated that it was"..........maybe not, but you sure take a hard stance AGAINST lots of us when we point out the abusive/narcisstic side of wierwille and his pyramid cult. "The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice."............yep, but then YOU never went WOW or Corps.....attempting to do the *fast-track* learning curve of twi's programs. "I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard.".......don't see wierwille falling into either of these two categories. No, he would be much further along the continuum........in the narcisstic/predatory/plagairist side of extreme contempt for others. With contempt and disregard for any Christian lifestyle, let alone a Minister's lifestyle......wierwille set the stage for the TWI EXODUS that was imminent. Besides, many of corps leadership were nearing their 40s......with family and careers and long-range goals and concerns coming into full focus. The cult experience was over.......for many.

With the Super Bowl game hype and festivities mounting and just about to kick in.......maybe, your company should rename it to the Super Store Party! :)

Yeah.......and ONE TRUTH would suffice? Heck, there should have been only ONE gospel (not four -- from Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) giving THE account of Jesus Christ's life and ministry.....with that black/white logic.

......"but in the end, one truth." one truth???......and WHAT "one truth" would that be?

Yes.......this is indeed factual As of August 2006, mr. lynn was phoning around for momentus candidates........a friend of mine, told me this. On three separate instances, jal tried convincing my friend to take momentus. And, I adviced my friend to investigate it further before taking it. He never did.