skyrider

Hey, Oldies.......thanks for showing up.....and hopefully, this discussion isn't just some tripe quips or dodging questions by asking questions. Yes, I used the word "narcisstic"........because I see things like 1) self-interest, 2) excessive self-interest, 3) self-importance and/or 4) self-abilities. Mrs. Wierwille's account VIVIDLY SHOWS that DR. WILLIAMS held the credentials, the high respect, and high integrity among the Indian nationals. In stark contrast, vpw's pfal-version came across as THE ALL-IMPORTANT MAN OF GOD WHO, MIRACULOUS, WALKED THROUGH OPEN DOORS THAT GOD OPENED.......again, over-exagerated and vague in details. Classic wierwille...............really. IMO, it gives CLEAR FACTS AND EVIDENCE (....whitedove loves to have facts and accounts to back things up :) ...) that fills the backdrop of the wierwille "painting." It was ALL about wierwille. He marketed himself as "the great one"......and I bought into it. The "window-dressing" of the wierwille ministry SOLD ME.......I became a follower. Oldies.....you may go to your grave boasting of wierwille's "dynamic ministry".......I don't know. But I DO KNOW.....that in stepping back and reviewing his "ministry" from several angles, I see an amazing amount of lying and scamming going on for something that has God's name attached to it. Oldies.....Mrs. Wierwille's account stands in STARK CONTRAST with her husband. In the reverberating words of vicster.....................SOMEONE has got to be a liar. <_<

Oldies........ I noticed that you're on the GS boards here. Would you like to weigh in on this discussion........OR.......perhaps, with Mrs. Wierwille's written biography that slaps in the face of vpw's egomanic boastings, it leaves little wiggle room for you??? Seemingly, you steer clear of THESE DISCUSSIONS.........wonder why???

rascal.......yeah, my 4 siblings never got involved in twi. All four...........own their homes and have no mortgage payments. All four...........are still married, no divorces. All four...........are healthy and have successful children. All four...........have made some good investments, etc. At age 42......(sigh)......I left "twi's more than abundant life." Having served corps and moved every few years, it's been quite a ride to get back to some sense of FINANCIALLY-SOUND and ADULT-STYLE living. And, there are so many STILL struggling to get their feet back under them......after the twi-detour.

On the FACT or FICTION thread, the topic of Wierwille's trip to India surfaced. And indeed......there is NO DOUBT after reading Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, that vpw skewed the details and painted himself as some great one during the India itinerary. To put it bluntly.................wierwille's host, Dr. Williams was the ONE with the credibility and credentials and entree to the government officials, numerous churches, special meetings and wierwille was a tag-along guest. Amazing......HOW DIFFERENT mrs. w's account is than that of vicster's pfal-version. Here are just a few excerpts from the book.

polar bear.......I totally agree. As noted on countless threads.......THE LONGER ONE STAYS IN TWI -----> THE GREATER THE DEPRAVITY. And, imo.......way corps who sat thru wierwille/martindale weekly corps meetings. ........1) Public ridicule and spiritual-critiquing of the corps-of-the-week "possessed award." ........2) The "us versus them" teachings......"us" vs "the world" or "us leaders" vs "the common believer." ........3) Wierwille's "cop-out" terminology..........martindale's "greasespot" labeling. ........4) Wierwille as the military general........Don't ask how HIGH to jump........just JUMP. ........5) Wierwille dogged martindale to keep the corps "spiritually ready at all times." ........6) Bullying was the name of the game.........and spiritual abuse was the norm. I WOULD NEVER WANT MY KIDS TO BE SUBJECTED TO SUCH CORPS INDOCTRINATION. Yeah........SO MUCH BETTER TODAY........like in twi, I was on roller skates.......and now, driving a porche.

ditto... I appreciate your input here at GS, Mark. And, for me......I enjoy reading a perspective that gives me pause to reflect or re-direct my thinking.

WW & WD.....according to Mrs. W's book, Born Again to Serve the account of the India itinerary that included 23 cities/communities is extensively documented. Dr. Williams was MUCH MORE than just a guide for the wierwilles.......he (and his family) was their HOST (think how big that was in THAT culture) and entree to government offices, churches, meetings, etc. See some detail below.... p. 125...."Bishop Pillai had made arrangements with Dr. Williams to be our host in India." [added bold-type] p. 125,126...."During the years prior to India's independence in 1948, many of the Indian revolutionaries were imprisoned for trying to oust the British. During those times, Dr. Williams contributed to the independence movement by personally carrying communications to and from these patriots. He was trusted to take correspondence and messages to those who would later become the highest political leaders in the Indian government, men such as Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Vice President Dr. Radha Krishna, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, the father of India. BECAUSE OF DR. WILLIAMS'S CONTACTS AND CREDIBILITY, it was possible for Dr. Wierwille to meet....." [emphasis added] p. 127...."The next evening after our arrival we were given a very cordial 'at home' at Dr. Williams church, where about 150 people gathered to officially welcome us." p. 130...."During our stay in India, Dr. Wierwille was sometimes introduced by Dr. Williams as a representative of 'PAIRS,' the acronym for the Promotion of American-India Relations Society in an industrial, economic, and cultural exchange.......Dr. Williams was the head of the Federation of National Churches and therefore at various times during our tour Dr. Wierwille was invited to speak in their local churches." p. 145...."Dr. Wierwille and Dr. Williams met with the chief minister of Madhya Pradesh...." p. 154...."On Monday, January 23, Dr. Williams and Dr. Wierwille went to keep a speaking engagement at Jain meeting.........Dr. Wierwille spoke........Dr. Williams also spoke in Hindi to the crowd for fifteen minutes." p. 155...."One of the Jain leaders asked Dr. Wierwille to have a special blessing for all the Jains.......When the train came to its first stop, a man from the next compartment came to our door, saying that his master would like to meet......When we had introduced ourselves, he said, 'We would like to pay our respects. It is not often we get to travel with such a man of God who blesses all the people.' He told us he was a member of the central government on his way home to Allahabad. He gave Dr. Wierwille the key to that city." * NOTE: This "key" was given in a very private setting. ** NOTE: Dr. Williams was HIGHLY respected every where he took his guest, Dr. Wierwille. ***NOTE: Quite a bit different accounting of events than what vpw taught in the pfal class.

In looking at the The Way of Canada's 2006 financial information.......Click Here (follow links on registered charities, and add The Way of Canada, London, Ontario...to information) Again, it shows the financial gain to way-tree structures that wierwille pawned off as "Christian" and "service"........where nearly every ministry function involves alpha male teaching and omega follower sitting. Where are the charitable works......helping the underprivileged, ministering to the sick and feeble, carrying the burdens that can be transferred, assisting at hospitals or shelters or food kitchens.....heck, even helping the next door neighbor. So.......what's The Way of Canada going to do with over $ 3 Million...??? If the past is ANY INDICATOR of the future......then, they are going to sit on it and do same ole, same ole. Oh, there is the tri-monthly branch meeting, perhaps.....and yearly "limb" meeting in say Toronto.....but.....pfffffffffffff. IMO, it's information like this that leads me to believe that wierwille was strong in marketing, weak in christian character and service. I mean........flip the tables on their wayspeak and HAVE TWI TRUSTEES GOING TO WEEKLY MEETINGS, GOING OUT WITNESSING, TOSSING 12-15% OF THEIR HARD-EARNED INCOME INTO THE HORN OF PLENTY, AND SPEND MONEY ON ACTIVITIES FEES, GAS MONEY, TRAVEL INTO HQ, SIT AGAIN FOR HOURS, ETC..... Where is the compassion? Where is the empathy? Where are the good samaritans? <_<

Polar Bear......yeah, it really is pathetic how the canadian followers are "milked" day after day while the "owner of this cash cow" is the beneficiary. According to the documents, the way of canada marks its beginning in 1979.......and from sources, it looks like twi's board of directors didn't move in as trustees/signing officers until 2003. Why then? Did the canadian by-laws change? Did rosalie & company get nervous that the country coordinator just might do a geer-like powergrab? Or, is there just no one else in the whole country of canada who qualifies with such high spiritual cahoonas (cough, cough)? IMO, I tend to think that with MILLIONS in assets........twi's "trust in the country coordinators' wholesale commitment to those who taught them the word" NEEDED MORE VISIBLE TEETH IN IT. Just seems that the money trail always leads back to the top of the pyramid.......after all, they just don't trust anyone. Ironic, isn't it........wierwille goes to Canada in 1953 and sits thru Rev. BG Leonard's class (twice) and then, steps into the spotlight and teaches it AS HIS OWN. After a few classes, wierwille tweaks it and augments it with material from stiles, bullinger, and others. AND NOW.......TWI IS MOVING IN CLOSER AND CLOSER TO CANADA'S ABS AND ASSETS. Guess....twi has a way of repeating itself.

BINGO. Only an illusion of "independence"....... As long as twi holds the purse strings......well, you'd better do as THEY say.

As I understand it.......The Way of Canada is comparable to a big Limb here in the U.S. (like say, The Way of Texas)......a home on the northside of London, Ontario....with an in-home office. Like the Limb Homes of the 80s......The Way of Canada is modeled in a very DEPENDANT-ON-TWI for any and all promotions. And, in all actuality......it's a closer "Limb" than dozens of U.S. limbs. No real autonomy........no canadian brc, no campground area, no training facilities......just a home without a mortgage. So.....in six years, the profit of $ 1,588, 372.00 is a nice hunk of change for a NON-PROFIT charity and will go far in sustaining itself for years to come. According to the information........in 2006, the country coordinator couple received near $ 83,000 in salary, wages, benefits (total of salaries minus the 2 part-time salaries). Not too shabby...... since they have access to petty cash accounts for travel expenses, conferences, weekend training expenses, dining expenditures, suv-vehicle allocation for "ministry use", etc.......nice perk. Modeled after twi.......The Way of Canada gives back very little to its supporters except for tapes, re-hashed teachings, branch meetings, etc. Obviously, with the financial growth.......looks like the old guard are hanging in there.

Silly me......I thought that INTERNATIONAL OUTREACH COUNTRIES were to be autonomous......existing, functioning and developing INDEPENDENTLY from twi. Sure, receive twi's tapes, mags.....but NOT have twi trustees as directors/signing officers over the affairs of ANOTHER COUNTRY'S WORK. Three of the four signatures are FROM an American corporation....... :blink: So much for........self-governing, self-propagating, blah, blah, blah.

Under the first link......scroll down and click under the year (bullet reference) Thus, you can compare each year, respectively.

The Way of Canada's financial information (2000 - 2006) and directors/trustees are listed under the Canada Revenue Agency. Scroll down and click on bullet reference under specified year. HERE As a registered charity, this information is made public under the Canada flagship website [Canada.ca] and gives open disclosure of charitable information. In reviewing The Way of Canada's information from 2000 -2006, one can readily get a clear picture of salaries, assets, investment growth, charitable activities, etc. For example, by 2006 their total assets are $ 3,061,095.00...........whereas, in 2000 their total assets were $ 1,472,723.00.......an increase of $ 1,588,372.00 in six years. MAJOR DIFFERENCE: In looking at this information, the most glaring difference is the addition of directors/trustees/signing officers in the seven-year span. 2000 Annual Report: Directors/Trustees and Like Officials Click Here 2006 Annual Report: Directors/Trustees and Like Officials Click Here LOOK AT THIS ************ LOOK AT THIS ************ LOOK AT THIS *********** LOOK AT THIS ***** Directors / Trustees and Like Officials - THE WAY MINISTRY OF CANADA 4 Directors / Trustees and Like Officials. # Directors/Trustees and Like Officials 1 Last Name: PERRY First Name: JOE Initial: A Position in Charity: COUNTRY COORDINATOR Director/Trustee at year end? No Arm's Length Indicator: Yes 2 Last Name: RIVENBARK First Name: ROSALIE Initial: F Position in Charity: DIRECTOR Director/Trustee at year end? Yes Arm's Length Indicator: Yes 3 Last Name: MITTLER First Name: ROGER Initial: L Position in Charity: DIRECTOR Director/Trustee at year end? Yes Arm's Length Indicator: Yes 4 Last Name: DE LISLE First Name: JOAN-YVES Initial: Position in Charity: DIRECTOR Director/Trustee at year end? Yes Arm's Length Indicator: Yes *************************************************************** Although the Canadian work is not exactly "foreign missions"...........wasn't wierwille adamantly opposed to AMERICAN INTERVENTION AND MANUEVERING in other country's affairs??? Edit: to clarify accessing information on links.

EXACTLY........just common sense The 3 Step Guide to plowing a field in 1880 .....1) What is needed: A horse and a plow .....2) How to get started: hook the two together .....3) What to do now: try to plow straight furrows

For some, this "3-step formula" is groundbreaking.......but really, could it be any MORE generic? I mean........it's like THIS could apply for just about anything. 3 Things one needs to know about infectious diseases: ...1) What's goin-round in your area ...2) How to get infected ...3) What do you do if you've got it?

Oh, yeah.......THAT stor-ee. <_< Why.....I knew my little foot blah, blah, blah.... Or what about that other stor-ee.... My son Donnie started heading for the door. Why......it's a DISGRACE for ME to have been at this fellowship...this day.

WTH.......you're missing the point. WhiteDove is the ONE who, repeatedly, demands for "evidence" to support facts or accounts. Most noteably, he likes the word "alleged" when those accounts of vpw/mog are closely associated with sex, rape, drugging, drunkenness, etc. OK.....carry on.

In the Advanced Class.........the ALLEGED *stories* took on a higher ante wherein wierwille battled the forces of evil......the white-heart/black-heart story.....the shutting down the psychic at the county fair......the secret revelations that wierwille has YET to tell a soul. Where is WhiteDove??.....when THESE alleged versions surface and not one witness or one shred of evidence is in sight????

Ham.......doncha know that those 'bless patrol' manueverings, while speaking in tongues, kept the sky from falling, the enemy from invading, the united states from being taken over and monitored the late-night activities of any corps on grounds.....all at the same time. Why wouldn't the next "corps experience" copy-cat THAT success?

Well......we keep EXPOSING their legalism, and doctrine, and isolationism. Anyone....and everyone....in today's internet-savvy world can now google "the way international" and read the dirty-laundry list that will follow twi for decades to come. As much as possible......we help to hold twi ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR PLAGAIRIST PAST, SEDUCTIVE DOCTRINES, AND DOWNWARD SPIRAL.

Some 40 years ago, wierwille sat at a desk and the pfal class was filmed. When scriptural references fell short of his "law of believing" doctrine.....wierwille improvised: he embellished vivid stories to "drive those poignant nails" that coffin his doctrine. Two stories that made lasting impression on students were 1) a mother's fear that killed her little boy and 2) red drapes. Even to this day......vpw-defenders staunchly support these stories, these made-up accounts that helped propel those 60s/early 70s current movements of *the magic of believing*.......*think and grow rich*..........*life is tremendous*.. What about wierwille's other stories in pfal?.......the drunk who came to church.....and wierwille said that he repented and would NEVER teach another NEGATIVE sermon? Yeah, right...... Or, the story about taking some 3,000 commentaries and publications to the local dump (ghenna).....yet, there is undisputable evidence that wierwille heavily plagairized many sources. And for that matter.......why didn't wierwille take his dog-porno video to the dump? Or, the story where vpw met with another minister/biblical scholar and talked about what they were seeing....yet, on the other side of the English Channel that guy could explain things to wierwille in 30 minutes. Stories, on the fly, intermixed with biblical research??.......yet, when put to the task of teaching at PFAL '77 wierwille, at age 60, couldn't muster the hype and inter-meshed stories that intrigued an older AND SMARTER audience. <_<

Yeah......run silent.....run deeper avoiding the "storm of lawsuits" that was ravaging several limbs and branches. And, under legal advisory.......send martindale packing, tucking him away, in toledo, moving him in with a trustee-friendly couple, and in this covert action martindale had no forwarding address, no phone in his name.......like the guy vanished from the face of the earth. Then.......start white-washing. And, soon.......sha-zam!......."the kinder and gentler twi" emerged. No matter.......from 200-2004, lots of folks tired of being led around by the nose (and put the pieces of the puzzle together).....EXIT TWI. Even H@rve P had to post on GS......to stop the hemorraging. Now........ease back the legalism, move into silence mode and READ PRE-APPROVED SCRIPTS AT SNS.

Highway........according to some GS postings, twi made the change last spring/summer......opening up camp gunnison for some family camps. But, in reality.......how much of "a change" is incorporated to move the dismal corps program of say 12-18 people to hq, to classes in the brc? I tend to think the "big factor" in all this......was twi's *perceived image* of putting out the welcome mat for families and trying to tap into the next generation of innies before they leave their parents' nest. Whatever.