skyrider

The Here we go again thread discussed it......got kinda heated too.

Uummm.......so then, those "jumping credentials" didn't serve craig very well on his quest as a ceo for a fortune 500 company? :blink:

Well..........in terms of "keeping it in the family".....a wierwille dynasty, of sorts.....one could make the case that the wierwille-bloodline was ALREADY FLOWING in the twi system. H.E. Wierwille, or uncle harry........was the older brother of vic....and interwoven in much of the fabric of those early days since 1955....from owning a third of Dad Wierwille's 147-acre farm to appointee on the "trustee" level of twi. p. 205 in mrs. w's book........."The first meeting of the Board of Directors after our return from the World Missionary Teaching and Training Tour was held on June 10, 1956. At this meeting the revised constitution and the revised bylaws of The Way were discussed in detail. Both were unanimously accepted as revised." "The revisions in the constitution included the auditing of the books once a year, the necessity of notifying board members of a meeting ten days in advance, and the number of members required to be present at a board meeting in order to transact business." "The Way Testimony of Belief was read, giving an outline of our learnng at that time." "Dr. Wierwille was authorized upon a motion by Mr. Owens to officially appoint the Trustees for The Way, Inc. In actuality Ermal Owens and H.E. Wierwille had been carrying the responsibilities of Vice President and Secretary-Treasurer, respectively, for several years already." "Dr. Wierwille reported that the formation of a branch of The Way of Florida was under way. This then would bring the number of branches of the summer of 1956 to a total of three in Ohio and two in Florida." ***NOTE #1.....H.E. Wierwille was appointed as a trustee of The Way in June of 1956. ***NOTE #2.....Not until August 1957 did vpw resign from his full-time pastorate in Van Wert. And, back to the "wierwille-bloodline" comments.......Don Wierwille was installed as vice president in 1977. Again, vpw moves to "keep it in the family" upon the death of his brother, H.E. So, perhaps............this "prophecy" on Luke being "heir to the throne" was ingrained into wierwille's world of rightful rulership over decades of dictatorship..???

Thanks WW. I must admit.....my question was asked with tongue in cheek. :) But yeah......I agree with your comments about vpw running to geer at that time. And, for geer to meticulously convey this "Patriarch -- His Final Testament"...........wierwille was on center stage AGAIN. And then...........the bus driver drove away with HIS OWN BUS.

Imagine.........nearing the culmination of 40 years of "knowing-the-greatest-stuff" since the apostle paul left the scene of walking tall..........vic lays out "this grandson wierwille prophecy" to instill his narcisstic fantasies as parting revelation of his profound ministry..!!??!! What a grand-scale moment to declare this "prophecy" to the gathering of wierwille-followers! Words from the summit of spiritual sensationalism had arrived..!! And......would someone explain to me again why wierwille ran to geer, instead of luke, when the nearing of days was upon him???

socks......I s'pose "caterwaulling and snotting around" covers the gamut of sordid bullying and all,......but thought to be clear, I'd add some more to my post (#39). Yelling and screaming have a place in this sports-fanatic world.......indeed, I've been around my share of coaches who yelled or got-in-my-face during the intensity of some games. No biggie.......BECAUSE we spent hours and hours TOGETHER in practices, in pep-meetings, in pre-game strategy, etc. IMO, the corps program was a totally different set of parameters.........and would include the following: public humiliation generalizing & stereotyping extreme belittling a caste system of "overseers" spiritual elitist bullying derogatory labeling character assassination In so many ways....the first couple of months were information-overload.......pfal re-hash, retemorize this, study that, learn the dale carnegie principles, know the definitions of the manifestations, learn every corps person's name, mark all this stuff in your bible, review corps night teachings, etc. etc. etc. Every day was different.......every person who held the microphone had "god's word for you to do today"........like being in a boxing ring, tag-teamed by a bunch of schizos. And.......some of those work details??? You kidding me??......pull weeds on the south side of kenyon hall for the next 4 hours. Oh, yeah........THAT is really helping me to be a spiritual man. NOT. Or, the time we were assigned to move to another dorm.......and it's happening today.........in a FREAKIN BLIZZARD..!!! So many assinine things......so many hours of ridiculous ramblings.......did every student have to be the next aramaic scholar?.......when corps couldn't even stay awake, didn't they realize that it was time to stop the mind-numbing nonsense and take a LONG BREAK? And, there were times when someone would call a meeting before the corps meeting.....because there will be no time later, because then there will be the after-glow meeting. uuuuggghh. And, wierwille.......I never did see the biblical significance of calling someone a cop-out. <_< Was this REALLY how the school of tyranneus was run????? :blink:

I couldn't agree more........... More often than not.......those who bought into that "father in the word" doctrine are 'THE SPIRITUAL OFFSPRING' whose delusional belief is to stay committed to 'da vey'.....it's a perverted birthright.

Yeah.......what was that all about??? Did those 'german-ancestry spirits' take a dive into vic's braincells when those "prophecies" were delivered, or what? You mean to say......that if that little grandson of vic wierwille doesn't stand committed to "the way's word".....er, is that "the word's way.......we're all toast...??? Uummmmm............chapter and verse, please.

doojable.......(from mrs. w's book) Feb/Mar 1943..............after the wierwilles moved into the new parsonage (St. Jacob's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Payne, Ohio) vpw found a room a block away from the church, formerly a dentist's office which he rented. And, at this newly-rented office, this (allegedly) astounding phenomenon occurred....And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. ......NOTE: Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until he told the Way Corps....(1970?? -- 27 years later??) June 1951..................wierwille was in Tulsa at "The Divine Healing Convention" and was questing to find someone who would lead him into speaking in tongues. From mrs. w's book......p.79...Demoralized, Dr. Wierwille wanted to go home. But because of severe weather conditions that were moving in very quickly through the plains -- with freezing rain, sleet, and snow in Chicago, and air traffic delayed for hours to low visibility; icing conditins in Indianapolis and St. Louis, and with sleet forecast in Tulsa by Thursday -- the only thing Dr. Wierwille could do was to stay at the convention and be on standby for a flight when air traffic could begin moving again.

This topic deserves its own thread............DWBH posted this on the here we go again thread. I, too, vividly remember aspects of that 40th Anniversary year......1982......when wierwille was stepping down as the president. At that time, twi headquarters was at its zenith in activity.....preparations for Living Victoriously and the 40th Anniversary ceremonies with the passing of the mantle to martindale, the president-elect. During the summer, there was a larger-than-normal "international summer school" group.....accommodating lots of brc teachings, extra activities, housing shuffling, extra lunchtime fanfare, every department was a-buzz with more workload.......the founding president was nearing the last months of his "reign." By mid-summer, more hype and substance was brewing.......more "wierwille heritage" sharings were surfacing at lunchtime........"how ALL the wierwille family NEEDED TO STAND 'on the word' was of great spiritual importance for the survival of 'the word' and thus, the ministry".......Then, the wierwille crest was presented and displayed......and the 40th anniversary plate.....and wine glasses with the wierwille crest would be made available for purchase from the bookstore. EVEN THEN.........I remember the doubts that surfaced in my thinking......"whoa, what's this??"......"why all the parading on the wierwille children, grandchildren and WILL GOD ONLY HONOR TWI WITH BLESSINGS IF THEY STAND TOGETHER 'ON THE WORD'...??.......I kept my questions and doubts to myself....and wondered, why was I thinking evil and questioning dr. wierwille's proclamations. Not too long after that.......the little statue of vpw was being promoted. WHOA, NELLIE..................what..???!!! Now.....in hindsight, I am of the opinion that......this postulating and pre-eminence of wierwille heritage, with dr. victor paul wierwille as the newly, embraced 'patriarch' of the wierwille family, and the larger 'family of followers' was a destination that he, long ago, set out to acquire. And, curiously enough. after acknowledgments in mrs. w's book, "born again to serve".....THE FIRST SENTENCE reads: "The Wierwille family ancestry can be traced as far back as the 1300s to a small town in northern France called Vierville-sur-Mer, translated "Wierwille by the Sea." Well.......I NEVER TOOK PFAL to follow a man, a man-made ministry OR the wierwille family heritage!!! And........I NEVER WENT CORPS to follow one man's agenda, one ministry's servitude a lifetime. I took that 'bible class' nearly 34 years ago......TO BETTER FOLLOW GOD AND MY LORD, JESUS CHRIST. Now, to me..........concerning the wierwille heritage.........pppppfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffttt.

socks.......from where I sit today, it is near to impossible to transcend back in time some 32 years ago when I decided to go into the corps.......BUT.....I also remind myself that wierwille was near 59 years old and the "leverage" he held over us young bucks. Heck, wierwille BACK THEN.......was STILL OLDER than I am today, by many years. :blink: Why did wierwille want to pattern the corps after the marine corps??.....why didn't he pattern his "you are the best" program after "jesus with his disciples?"........or, an "oral roberts university with more truth?" IMO, wierwille patterned his corps program to instill discipline, fear and twi-mandated servitude. As the old cliche goes....."it was his way or the highway"......and the zero corps stood as a testimony to this. And, with youth...... instilling discipline (insert - "toughen up") is a building block that cannot be bypassed. Another thing......quality versus quantity. I personally think that wierwille, nearing 60 years old, had QUANTITY (...and $$$$$...) ahead of QUALITY......his productive years were quickly slipping by and there was just too many irons in the fire......during those 1976-1982 years. Lots of things, for sure......but with the corps program, way productions, publications, campus locations, cult-accusations, word in culture, girls-in-the-motorcoach, etc.......the juggling of "doing things well" got very sloppy, irritable, and mean-spirited. That's why........it's near IMPOSSIBLE to discuss "the corps experience".......socks, your experience was TOTALLY different than mine......and mine was TOTALLY different than a 17th corps person......etc. etc. Promos changed, brochures changed, the training-impetus changed, new locations added, bull-riding school, hitch-hiking guidelines changed, corps hook-ups on the field became mandatory,.......more hoops, more hoops. And, imo..........from my 24 years twi-experience........1994-1997 was the worst. Still, martindale DEMANDED those corps phone hook-ups and the VERBAL THRASHINGS EVERY WEEK were excruciating. So many good people trashed over the ridiculous, insignificant things. Martindale had learned well from his teacher. Even then, after some 16 years as a corps grad......the "toughen up" spiel was blugeoning the corps weekly. Thank God.............I left, finally.

socks.......I'll take a shot at answering your multi-faceted question. Disclaimer: I do not have the time nor inkling to qualify the multi-varied processes of "this corps preparation and training" from some 30 years ago. But to say just a few things.....here goes... For me, I came from an athletic background.....football, basketball, track & field. The "physical training" was no big deal......but I did have empathy for some who were overweight, or physically handicapped, etc. To me, I viewed the whole corps "training" like a TEAM sport. We're all on ONE TEAM. Nothing more, nothing less. IMO, when some talk about the "toughening up"......I tend to view that more in the MENTAL/PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL areas....but perhaps, that's just me. I never expected the YELL-FESTS, THE VERBAL ABUSE, THE VERBAL LASHINGS THAT WOUNDED AND SCARRED.........to me, the corps "training" was really A WIERWILLE-INDOCTRINATION. IMO, the whole thrust and impetus of wierwille's corps "training" was contorted......it totally missed the mark of imparting Christian wholeness and leadership to those involved. Just to name a few.......conspiracy theories, MAL-PACK meetings, fear tactics, secret agendas, select favortism, sexual abuse agendas, public humiliation, scorning, etc. etc.......in hindsight, I know that I stayed because of my athletic upbringing and not wanting to be a quitter. WHAT YOU LOOK AT.....YOU BECOME. It's no wonder, to me, that many corps graduates became hard-hearted leaders on the field. Or, they would mimic wierwille's mannerisms, his teaching style, get a German shorthair dog, etc........some idolized the man. Obviously, some still do. On so many levels, the "toughened attitude" was REALLY.........a hard-heartedness. Even today, there are still posters who come to the GS boards and criticize corps grads....when, in truth, they just don't trace that criticism back to its source. "Nazi corps training.......yields nazi-corps." Not all, but alot. Anyways......I gotta run, but wanted to post a few thoughts.

Okay.....I'll try asking in another manner. All posters welcome........here goes: WHY IS MRS. WIERWILLE'S ACCOUNTING OF TWI HISTORY so descriptive.....and DIFFERENT.....than vpw's? And....are Mrs. W's viewpoints disregarded as NOT authoritative? NOTE: More than likely, many posters here do not have a copy of Mrs. W's book......but with several excerpts on this thread, her all-around Christian demeanor comes through LOUD AND CLEAR......whereas, vicster's narcisstic chest-thumping bravado on the India trip is laced in pfal.

Be careful......you might *be reading posts on corps issues* (or otherwise)......from SOMEONE who never went corps and has NO IDEA what he's talking about. <_<

Once Again............discussing any corps BROCHURES or PROMOS is ALL RELATIVE. Each corps year was different.....different coordinators, different situations, different locations......etc. etc. LEAD.....there was NO "LEAD" program in the early corps.....and, then TFI surfaced for a couple of years. Discussing corps brochures is like............trying to shoot a scurrying rabbit.....that little feller zigs and zags, darting and stopping, even with a 20-guage shotgun it's not easy.

Whitedove............THIS THREAD is about wierwille's NARCISSTIC SELF-PROMOTION... On the thread, FACT OR FICTION.....we discussed "the key" aspect. It was SUCH A MINOR POINT in Mrs. W's book that it was hardly a blip on the radar......a private setting, on a train ride, no presenter's name mentioned, no picture in Mrs. W's book, no highlight reel, no nothing actually. What THIS THREAD is about........is wierwille's over-the-top, unabashed, SELF-promotion, exaggerated bravado of "him being THE MAN OF GOD who had come to India, etc. How many times does IT NEED TO BE REPEATED??? One more time.......Mrs. Wierwille's book is VASTLY DIFFERENT than vpw's pfal-version of self-bravado, self-serving proclamations of some "great one." And, I repeat my statement.... Several of my posts on THIS thread......outline and show: 1) Dr. J.S. Williams (and family) were the HOST REPRESENTATIVES for the wierwille during their trip, 2) Dr. J.S. Williams met them at the port of entry (ship) and handled the vast majority of introductions, meetings. 3) Dr. J.S. Williams was the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches. 4) Dr. J.S. Williams was the pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Bycutta, Bombay. 5) Dr. J.S. Williams set up speaking engagements for wierwille to speak at THAT church. 6) Dr. J.S. Williams was the prima-dignitary for wierwille to preach at the Jain Convention. 7) Dr. J.S. Williams stood beside wierwille and interpreted at the Jain Convention. 8) Dr. J.S. Williams addressed the people in Hindi after wierwille stepped aside. 9) Dr. J.S. Williams had the CREDIBILITY and CONTACTS to government offices. 10) And, this is Mrs. Wierwille's chronicled description of THIS MAN and HIS IMPORTANCE. Yet............in pfal, with vic holding the microphone...vpw's MOGNESS is lauded to the high heavens. Now, is that clear enough???......I just thought, since you spoke up here, you would address Mrs. Wierwille's point of view on the 10 items above AND vpw's bravado in pfal.

OK, whitedove......I'll sit down and "give you the podium." I'd REALLY like to hear your responses TO MRS. WIERWILLE'S DETAILED ACCOUNT. :)

Or.......makes me wish that I'd told the Emporia Corps Coordinators (upon returning from Lightbearers)......show me WIERWILLE'S RESULTS FROM HIS INDIA TRIP...i.e. those who "signed up" .......if any.......OTHERWISE STOP YOUR THREATENING MANIPULATION ATTACKS. Wierwille DEMANDED from corps.....what HE COULD NOT PRODUCE..!!

Ham........yeah, and that "STOWRIE" is a pompous fabrication of LIES. Looking back......wierwille's experiences and "ministry" was A HOUSE OF CARDS. And, in the corps "training".......we were held to this lightbearer standard of "getting a class together in two weeks".....OR ELSE.....yeah, threats of kicking people out of the corps program. HE11'S BELLS.............WIERWILLE was a sham. The India itinerary was little more that a PR-CAMPAIGN to help wierwille get enough of a following to break away from the Van Wert Church. It was all smoke and mirrors......NO FIRE FROM THE LORD. WHY are there so many things in wierwille's background that FALL TO THE GROUND...in the face of undisputable facts and truths? From the "founding of his ministry" with vesper chimes.....to stealing BG Leonard's class......to the snow-covered gas pumps......to the plagiarism from leonard, stiles, bullinger......AND NOW, WE SEE THAT WIERWILLE FABRICATED THE INDIA ITINERARY WITH EXAGERRATED CLAIMS (LIES)..... With the SLIGHTEST BREEZE OF CONCERN TO VERIFY WIERWILLE'S CLAIMS......HIS HOUSE OF CARDS FOLDS.

Well.......Mrs. W's account of THE INDIA ITINERARY bares "the truth of wierwille's greatness (cough, cough). In terms of "wierwille's lightbearer experience" we see: ...1) Wierwille pawned off himself as some "great one" in pfal. ........1a) Dr. J.S. Williams was THE MAN the indian people respected. ...2) Wierwille boasts of getting "the key to the city" in pfal. ........2a) This "key" was given to wierwille in a private setting, by a non-descript individual. ...3) Wierwille taught at the St. Paul Church in Bombay many times. ........3a) Dr. J.S. Williams was the pastor of THAT church and set it up for wierwille to teach. ...4) Wierwille taught at the annual Jain Convention. ........4a) Dr. J.S. Williams, as the head of the All-India Federation of Churches and wierwille's host, was able to introduce wierwille, interpret for him and ADDRESSED THE JAIN CONVENTION when vpw stepped aside. ...5) Specific results of the India itinerary? ........5a) Were any persuaded to follow "wierwille's teachings on abundant life".....any sign-ups? ........5b) No more mention or correspondence with Dr. J.S. Williams afterwards....no "conversion?" :blink: ........5c) One man, at a train station, lifts his arms and is healed? supposedly ........5d) Wierwille writes a little booklet on "foreign missions".......from his experiences?? Speaking from a Corps Lightbearers' point of view:....Wierwille -- YOU FAILED. <_< .......You didn't get "A CLASS TOGETHER" .......And, you had lots more time than TWO WEEKS .......Should YOU be allowed to stay "corps"......hahaha .......If you, wierwille, couldn't GET IT DONE.....you WEREN'T who you thought you were.

One more tidbit of information.....from Mrs. W's book (p. 131-133) The Jains convention, an annual event, was a three-day gathering wherein numerous dignitaries, Hindu philosophers and speakers addressed the nearly 4,000 who had assembled. With Dr. J.S. Williams, the president of the All-India Federation of Churches, standing up front and interpreting -- Wierwille addressed the convention on "The Abundant Life in Jesus Christ." After wierwille spoke, Dr. Williams spoke in Hindi addressing the people. So, when all the background and details are presented......it's CRYSTAL CLEAR (right? mike? ) that Dr. J.S. Williams was the prima-dignitary who opened these doors for wierwille to speak and teach while in India. And, let's be CLEAR.........this was a THREE-DAY event with RESPECTED DIGNITARIES TAKING THE STAGE......and wierwille was little more than a little guest speaker whom the Jains' granted BECAUSE OF DR. J.S. WILLIAMS. Now, Mike........with these details, go back and color in your pfal class coloring book.

Speaking of "wonder".... I wonder.......why Mike hops around on several threads, but AVOIDS THIS ONE? I wonder.......why Oldies gave one little quip THEN DISAPPEARED? I wonder.......why wierwille-defenders go SILENT when Mrs. Wierwille's iron-clad perspective surfaces? WHERE ARE THE MIGHTY CRUSADERS OF WIERWILLE'S MOGNESS --- FIGHTING OFF THOSE WHO CHALLENGE AND ATTACK HIS PFAL STATEMENTS..??

Of course.....you did NOT go into the corps. Of course.....you were NOT ready to "be toughened up." Of course.....you saw wierwille's corps program VERY CLEARLY as advertised. Of course.....you avoided it BECAUSE this was so clearly made known. Of course.....you're talking about 1975 to 1985......wierwille died May 20, 1985. I'm left to wonder WHY it took you two more years to figure out that your "music died" when wierwille drew his last breath on earth.? <_<

Mrs. Wierwille's account of Bishop K.C. Pillai p. 96...."In the summer of 1953 Dr. Wierwille's brother Harry went to Tennessee to visit a Christian children's camp called the 'Tennessee Mountain Mission,' which he was financially supporting. While there, Harry decided one evening to attend a nearby Baptist church in Chattanooga, where an Anglican bishop from India was scheduled to speak. This speaker was Bishop K. C. Pillai. After hearing Bishop Pillai that evening, Harry called Dr. Wierwille and enthusiastically told him of the teaching and asked Dr. Wierwille if he should bring him to Van Wert since "the Bishop," as we called him had a couple of days open before his next engagement. Doctor responded, 'If he's that good, you better bring him here!' Hastily we scheduled a few meetings, and Dr. Wierwille set aside personal time to spend with the Bishop." p. 96....."After these few summer days in 1953 with Bishop Pillai's giving us our introduction to Eastern culture found in the Bible, we immediately made arrangements to have him return for another visit a couple of months later. Dr. Wierwille described that second, extended visit by saying, 'Bishop and I sat together for six weeks and went from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, reading every verse in the Word." This background and timeline of Bishop Pillai in Mrs. W's book -- with Pillai taking PFAL in 1954 -- adds significantly to the Wierwille's itinerary in India. On page 125, Mrs. W writes, "Bishop Pillai had made arrangements with Dr. Williams to be our host in India." A picture on p. 126 shows Dr. J.S. Williams -- the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches, the pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay and an avid devotee to Indian history. So, when this picture of Dr. Wierwille is teaching at St. Paul's Church in Bombay......page 127 of Mrs. W's book.....one should note that Dr. J.S. Williams was the pastor of THAT church. Isn't there a saying like -- "The devil's in the details" ---- ?? :) These DETAILS help to take the "mystique" out of wierwille's boastings in pfal. Kinda like that ...... 6 degrees of separation ..... somebody knows somebody who knows somebody who can open doors for you to teach at their church.

Oldies......rascal asked you to "Please desist." She asked you nicely.....she said "please"........why are you continuing this childish stance? She was up-front with you and wanting to handle it with YOU.....not take it to the next level.