skyrider

Eating thunder.............makes one mighty Thor Crapping lightning........makes one mighty sore :blink:

whitedove.............you need to READ what I posted. The quote is below.......I posted that "Peter W@de quit twi after pfal was filmed in '67." The reason is obvious......wierwille mentions wade's little booklet in the pfal class. Therefore, it seems that wade was STILL WITH TWI at the time of its filming........then, by the late 60s/early 70s wade is gone, nowhere around giving support to twi. What facts need checking? My post #221 Should I put together a little sermon labeling Peter J. W@de "a quitter?" <_< Heck, one could just as easily call the Apostle Paul "a quitter"......he "quit" on God's revelation to NOT go to Jerusalem, and still went.......didn't he? Why does one have to attach *blanket-labels* that stigmatize a tiny segment of one's life? I just wouldn't wrap my sermon around this little infraction and then label it something like....."John Mark the quitter." Sure, I see the point that we learn from victories, learn from failures ..... that we fail but are not failures.......it just seems that if one were to look at John Mark's point of view, perhaps he had a valid reason for withdrawing from the journey with Paul (and it had nothing to do with "failure"). Seems like Barnabus didn't hold this against him.......whatever.

BACK THEN........in the 70s/early 80s........those general concepts of "move the word, preach the word" ran the spectrum from "leading one to the new birth" to "leading as a trustee in twi." BACK THEN........there was a research department in twi with some quality individuals and many of us truly believed that twi was forthright with a genuine concern for teaching right doctrine AND right practice........not junk like "follow your father in the word." Doctrinal changes??.........by 1978, the advanced class began to eliminated all the extra teachings, videos, audios, of various men/women who walked by revelation, cast out demons, how God worked specifically in phenomenon.....and then, EVERYTHING WAS IN-HOUSE TWI STUFF (vpw, vpw, vpw). Yeah, twi doctrine.......believed that twi was the one and only True Zion, fortified to stand, wall went up, isolation increased.....all church leaders were seed men. Advancing legalisms........by 1983, the push for "athlete of the spirit" terminology was on. Competitive nature was growing stronger in twi, more scrutiny, more confrontational, evaluations and more paperwork, reporting back, chain of command, big limb homes, twi leaders were less approachable.........etc. etc. Power-grab years...........I don't like that water-down phrase "the fog years." :blink: Burdensome rules and regulations.......by 1992, after lcm had spent a couple of years to "circle the wagons"......the geer-is-possessed-teachings subsided, genuine suspicion began, homo purge, reporting back, etc. Then, when all the corps were, by revelation from God (to lcm), to be FULL-TIME............twi owned you and dictated your lifestyle and life decisions..............everything from pregnancy to pets to your kid's karate lessons. But yeah, oldies.......By then, any corps left were re-assessing their affiliation with twi.

Highway........of course, it's born out of some aspect of some truth, somewhere. This "follow" stuff.........reminds me of that movie Multiplicity with Michael Keaton. Trying to make a copy, from a copy, from a copy........and what do you get? A dysfunctional, spasmic moron who can't tie his shoes. And then geer.......took his "corps program" to gartmore, and some of us have heard THOSE RESULTS.

Martindale writes.........VP and Me Geer writes.................The Passing of a Patriarch Martindale "jumped" every time wierwille said "jump." Geer taught the 7th & 9th corps how to be sold-out to the victor paul wierwille ministry........he spent countless hours listening to wierwille's old teaching tapes, studied all of wierwille's habits and mannerisms, read the same books wierwille liked, took dog-training seriously to side in closer to wierwille, learned bus driving from howard, studied books on bodyguarding, took evasive driving course to help protect vpw if need be, and the list goes on. Geer's cliff notes: Sell your soul to the wierwille-indoctrination and agendas. The corps program was NOT a "leadership" program............it was a followship program.

From where I sit today, I do NOT believe that the corps program was ever intended to be "A lifetime of Christian service".........but rather, it was "a wierwille-indoctrination of twi service" with snippets of scripture to cloak the self-serving agendas. Any "lifetime contract" or "binding agreement"......was NULLIFIED when the participant became aware of the deceitful nature of wierwille's (trustee) hidden agendas. Some left within weeks of their first inresident year. Some corps left at Christmas time......never to return. Some left during their interim year. Some confronted issues and parted company. Some left immediately after corps graduation. Some refused an irrational corps assignment and seeing that "God was no where in that decision." Some worked for twi a year, or two, or more.......etc. etc. I don't believe that wierwille was training "leaders"..............I believe that wierwille was training FOLLOWERS. Why do I say this? LOOK no further than: 1) L. Craig Martindale and 2) Chrisxophxr C. Gexr.

Thanks penworks............

socks...........yeah, your post summerizes some of what I was thinking when starting this thread and putting John Mark in my first post. To label John Mark "a quitter"....???? Man, that is taking some liberties with scripture......what do we really know? Gee, I'd have to go back and study the record.......BUT if "the word doesn't say, then stop guessing" and STOP LABELING. Quitting is an interesting "concept," isn't it? I mean.......don't we all quit doing something before we start doing something else? Paul quit being a pharisee....and became a living epistle. Was Paul "a quitter?" VPW quit the payne ohio church and quit the van wert church.....and started twi. Was vpw "a quitter?" Peter W@de quit twi after pfal was filmed in 67.....and started his own ministry. Was peter w@de "a quitter?" To me, when I read that "sermon" on John Mark the quitter...........all I saw was private interpretation. <_<

For easier reading --- paragraphs inserted and highlighted wording. Gee, whitedove.......when "the cards are openly laid on the table"..... it looks like your viewpoints aren't all that different than mine, especially that last paragraph. From where I sit........I believe that each and every corps person (regular, family, spouse & recognized) had/has the rightful duty to love and honor God, first and foremost. When the corps grad was conflicted and bound in the spirit (betwixted, restrained, & perplexed) on path-veering decisions, he needed to follow "the road to Emmaus, the one where Jesus Christ would instruct with wisdom and revelation." For indeed........if it were "Christ-in-me, the hope of glory" then surely that spirit within would lead me and guide me to all truth (and ways to minister and serve). And, finding that "proper arrangement" to serve God and not mammon became increasingly challenging as twi evolved thru various stages into a business-like corporate entity. And, personally.....I stayed in twi into the 90s.....serving in an area (far from the binding tentacles of hq). After several years, when I could no longer hold back the encroaching legalism of twi policies and God-less mandates..... I resigned knowing that, by the grace of God, I'd done everything I could to minister to those in my care. I exited on my terms with God as my witness. A few years later, martindale was ousted....and twi was attempting to be a "kinder, gentler ministry."

whitedove.......your last statement in this post....[of which I bold-faced for emphasis].....is very intriguing in light of this whole lifetime/christian/corps discussion. Hopefully, I can gingerly broach this subject without inferring anything or hurting anyone............so here goes. Spouse Corps: ..... 1) When a non-corps person married a corps person.....wasn't there twi counseling before this? ..... 2) Didn't vpw teach that the man was the head of the woman....in the marriage? ..... 3) If a non-corps (male) married a corps (female).......wasn't he to live & lead THEIR CORPS COMMITMENT? ..... 4) Even if the man didn't sign the corps form......didn't he make a vow before God? before twi clergy? ..... 5) If so........then wasn't SPOUSE CORPS recognized within the corps household? corps responsibilities? ..... 6) By free-will.......this man KNOWINGLY "signed-on" to the corps commitment, didn't he? ..... 7) Now.........is this spouse corps guy RESPONSIBLE TO OBEY TWI DIRECTORS A LIFETIME? Please Note: My attempt at this questioning is LOGIC.......not twi's deceptive tactics, ok? Before you (or anyone else responds)........DISCLAIMER: I believe that my corps commitment (at the time) was to SERVE GOD a lifetime......Christian service (not twi service). I believe that my corps application had OPTIONS to accept assignments or not accept assignments. I believe that the One Body of Christ is all important.......and twi is straying further and further from scripture.

T-Bone........your posts are ALWAYS a great read. Thanks.

I saw this post the other day......BUT everytime it resurfaces, I can't stop laughing.

doojable...........some really good points. Thanks. Maybe, THAT'S IT...........while some hold to the "wierwille of pfal lore".............many CORPS have these visual re-runs of wierwille's hypocrisy parading in front of us during those in-rez years. When wierwille spoke against smoking...........he took those looong drags on his shorties right in front of us. When wierwille spoke on the 2-drink limit.......he sipped his drambuie/coffie in his fine china cup. When wierwille lectured about discipline.........he relied heavily on his research team to do the work. When wierwille taught his literal usages..........he took plenty of liberties in private interpretation. When wierwille hugged the corps girls............NOW, we know that he fell prey to lustful temptations. Yeah, for some of us corps...............HIS actions were HIS teachings. <_<

whitedove.....in your post below, #141, you mention that I brought up this "unreasonable to require people to make a lifetime commitment at such a young age." I don't recall saying that in such terms.....nor can I seem to find it. Yet.....you made reference to it as noted below. Post #131 -- from whitedove Once again........connecting the dots back to WHO authored this unreasonable requirement of a lifetime commitment from an 18 or 19 year-old....and the WHO you find....the ONE who terminated the "zero corps" is ..........victor paul wierwille. And further, whitedove..........I do agree with you, though. It was NOT a smart move. :)

penworks.........yeah, I sorta remember it. If you can post it.....I'd love to see it. Kinda ironic about Dr. discontinuing it because of the "gift ministry stuff"........BECAUSE the new pentagon one, that was designed by a 6th corps guy and someone else, could easily have the SAME REPRESENTATION. Groucho......I, too, think it's a good idea to have dialogue and different points of view.

:) -- A Lifetime of Christian Service .............. "We ought to OBEY GOD rather than men." -- A Lifetime of TWI Service .......the doctrines of men. Absurd isn't it..?? To even consider that one would/should obey and submit to an organization that CONTINUES TO STRAY further and further from scripture. Absurd isn't it..?? To think in any stretch of the imagination that "Christian" and "the twi organization" have any sense of sunesis (two rivers converging and flowing together) as twi hordes the abs and exploits followers. Absurd isn't it..?? To bring up vague wording in some corps brochure that gave OPTIONS TO TAKE ASSIGNMENTS or NOT......and to try and hold it with a "strict, beady-eyed, pharisee club" to try and infer lack of commitment. Absurd isn't it..?? To now see the wierwille plagiarism, the wierwille adulation, the wierwille in the flesh, and the exposing of toxic doctrines and carnal lusts........and some STILL think that that's alright with God? Absurd isn't it..?? To imagine that 22 years after the death of twi's founding president, some are still trying to unravel the psycho-emotional/abusive damage wrought by this outfit?.......and others still coming to GS. BESIDES: If a corps grad were to always obey, never waver, continuously submit, and ever-jump to the twi board of directors.... for a LIFETIME..............then both wierwille's most sold-out students failed miserably......... 1) 2nd corps grad..........L. Craig Martindale 2) 7th corps grad...........Chrisxopher C. Gexr ..... .....

waysider..........yeah, same here. There's a whole chunk of life's episodes that I missed from my twi involvement......and, in a crazy-sorta-way, it goes into the next generation as well......my kids never spent hardly any time with grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. and now that they're older, it's time that cannot be revisited. No, it's not unique to twi..........but probably a little more extreme than most.

Groucho......you bring up a good point about "corps culture." Reaching it's zenith years from 1981-1985, the corps household had its own culture of buzzwords, corps-speak, pecking order, favortisms, and whatnot. And, the Corps Household Newsletter was like in-sider information that would sometimes include wierwille addressing some "corps-commitment issue" that he felt needed immediate attention. Of course, martindale took over these responsibilities in 1982. IMO........this *corps household* stuff was running at cross-purposes with "the household of the way." Then, when geer was sent to europe and began building *his* work there..............soon, on the horizon we started hearing about the *European Corps Household* and gartmore training. In fact, as I remember it.......Cgeer told F!nn3gan (the world-wide outreach coordinator) that geer's european corps would NOT be participating in corps weeks every year, but that the new-geer policy would be every third year they'd come to the USA. In rough estimates (1982).....each year, regular corps enrollments were around 325. The Family Corps numbers, each year............around 175-200 (minus children). Then, by 1983.......European corps enrollment probably 30-40. IMO.........that's why the "Word in Culture" concept was (and would have been) THE RIGHT PATH TO PURSUE for the longevity of "christian and community involvement." I know, I know.......it didn't happen and twi digressed back into its isolation, and defensive posture, and vpw died, etc. etc........but what if???? Besides.......many of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th corps had given and served in areas of their interest and abilities ..... and some, rightfully so.....were ready to further their educational goals, career goals, raising families, etc and would still support twi with tithes, counsel, etc. To be more specific, I was working alongside a first corps grad in 1981 who had served as a limb coordinator for many years and then, came to hq to work as a department coordinator. He and I spent lots of time together.....and after some ten years of this, he was submitting his resignation as a staffer and moving away at the end of the ministry year. This example I cited was just one of many. Look at how the corps numbers swelled..........training some 500 corps/family corps each year. Did twi really have a need for THAT many "leaders"..........or did they need the MONEY, AND FREE-LABOR that was pouring in??? IMO........many of "the old guard of early corps grads" were moving on.....lots of examples come to mind, but I don't want to start naming names........except, there are the "jox coultxr types" who firmly planted his SECULAR goals in twi's a/v department.......and is still there!! Others too. Of course, if you believe that twi is "the spiritual epicenter of the universe" then it all makes sense......hahahahahaha So yeah, groucho.......the reading of the corps assignment stuff was "THE STAGE PERSONA" of twi's hype and hoopla whereas us *BOOTS ON THE GROUND-TYPES* knew why they flaunted this stuff. Enuff said.

Oakspear......yeah, a few military guys got "special clearence to do their thing." And, medical people were given the nod to "keep on a-doing their medical service." And, artists spent time away from classes to paint murals on the dining room walls at emporia. And, Dxxg Cxxk.....a blind man went into the 7th corps. And, a few corps builders went to work at that Colorado Log Homes company. And, "recognized corps" were accepted with a ONE-YEAR and "done" deal. And, spouse corps were "to be raised up" by their corps grad spouse. And, "dancing to the beat of all this activity" made for lots of action.

((((waysider))))........NO WONDER you understand the "pitch & con" so well. :)

Of course, you belong.......and your FL commitment is an amazing read. Thanks I had NO idea you guys did all these things in fellow laborers. Surprise, surprise...........not really. <_< Didn't you get that "hometown assignment agreement" in writing.....before you "signed on?"

Spouse corps.......yeah, another "diversion" from wierwille's original intent of those early years, but adapted and accepted around 1978 (?)......and wasn't this widely discussed at those corps weeks in 1978 & 1979..? Me?.....I never had any concern one way or another.....in fact in my experiences, I found many *spouse corps* approachable, dependable and prudent. Besides, if the goal was to grow spiritually and serve God........welcome to the party and pull up a chair. And further.....I never agreed with vpw's comments about CORPS SHOULD MARRY CORPS....but rather, took the position that it was an individual choice, NOT up for "committee balloting." From my 20 year-old perspective, when it was promoted as "A Lifetime of Christian Service"........the general concepts were acceptable to my college brain-cells........serve according to MY interests and MY abilities. At the end of apprentice corps year, my 4th Corps LC was going to "step down" from the LC position and further his education for a few years. I remember THAT....... :) Yeah.......lots of changes, for sure......my experience ties more closely with the "Word in Culture" era and the major thrust to build at camp gunnison, tinnie, and restore aspects of the emporia campus buildings. Several of the corps guys around me would be shipped out to gunnison for four to six month work projects.

Although I highly doubt your sincerity to know, here are some things to consider: 1) No blanket statements -- you can't paint the lives of some 3,500 people with the same brush. 2) Qualify your questions -- they, they, they did this........they, they, they, did that..... 3) After corps graduation --- yes, some corps left.......and didn't look back. 4) For a time, many corps served in a capacity of THEIR desire, THEIR ability and TWI's needs. 5) Some corps.....like J0e C0xlter.....went into the corps and STILL work on twi's staff. 6) The corps program has EVOLVED and CHANGED CONSTANTLY......with different coordinators. 7) At its peak, five campuses for "corps training"...........today, only at twi's ohio location. 8) Regular corps and Family corps --- totally different settings, different issues, different emphasis. 9) International corps in USA......European corps started training in Gartmore around 1983. 10) Once again, to use BLANKET STATEMENTS.....at best, shows ignorance....at worst, show maliciousness. I'm done.....time to enjoy my weekend!

Yep............it's ALL about what they think. Maybe........the oppressors didn't think the corps were "jumping" high enough???

WhiteDove.......(sigh) I'll try to explain this to you one more time. The corps program.....like so many things in twi.....has EVOLVED THROUGH MANY STAGES since its inception. Seems that wierwille referred to it being like "a school of tyrannus".......or like a "marine-style discipline training"......where equipped believers, ambassadors strong and wise (from corps poem) would go forth to serve, to work. And, as you pointed out from one of the corps brochures......"Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry." Yes......They (corps grads) serve depending on their desire......and their ability......and the needs of the ministry. Advanced class grads from all walks of life were encouraged to grow spiritually and go forth as leaders. From about 1977-1982.......after PFAL '77 remember?......lots of ministry exposure and promo for advanced class grads to learn and grow via the corps program. Some corps......were nurses, medical personnel (even lcm's medical doctor was corps alumni) Some corps......were military men (for a period of time, military outreach was a segment of the trunk office at hq) Some corps......were businessmen and women, writers, musicians, pro athletes, etc. Some corps......were pilots, (went in corps and then BACK to hq to pilot the planes) Some corps......were hq staff secretaries, department heads, way builders. Some corps......went on to get their doctorates. Heck, martindale made it MANDATORY for all way productions to go into the corps program BEFORE performing on stage at ministry functions. So, people went corps.....then picked up their instrument to perform on stage. Word in Culture was a huge deal at this time. All five corps objectives were general concepts.......#1 spiritually, #2 mentally, #3 physical, #4 financially and #5 go forth with christian service. Guess it depends on how one perceived that "going forth in christian service" to mean......because there were examples and lifestyles from "soup to nuts." :blink: :blink: ........YOU DIDN'T OBJECT to those posts stating that you were NON-CORPS two years ago. <_<