skyrider

Yes.......a weary world of the same posters repeating the same argument trying to stir the same controversy over and over again. It's sooooo way-ish.........like hearing the same guy at the microphone use the same enunciations on the same teaching over and over again. Indoctrination?? Absolutely. Having new posters show up......and share new ideas, new perspectives, new deliverance stories is a rush of fresh air into The Cafe. Peace.

Yeah......I've posted many specific accounts of my personal experiences with wierwille, the original trustees, martindale, geer, lynn and others......the indoctrination, the wierwille pyramid, the craziness, the insanity of cult mentality...........but "me?? -- a BIG leader in the Cult" is not something I've ever said. Sure.......a corps grad, ordained by wierwille, hq staffer for years, all that...........but no where near the "top of the cult pyramid." LOL And, in all fairness........I still contend that there were some awesome people in twi who knew nothing about wierwille's "secret life and agendas" until cgeer's pop paper, and even then....some of us refused to really believe it for years. Maybe that's why I try to be very patient with folks who never saw the dark side of twi.........but once waybrain dissipated, being away from the constant barrage of twi propaganda, I could see it all so clearly. Peace.

What else about these 3 guys....cgeer, marty, and lynn. These guys.......the "praise wierwille club".........were instrumentally involved in indoctrinating the way corps with this same mentality. Is it any wonder why twi went south........as the corps numbers increased year after year??? IMO.......the corps program was an indoctrination into the wierwille-idolatry club. ......barf.

Well..........at least, his letter(s) are a mini-version of Cgeer's poop-paper. I continue to find it a fascinating study of these mini-mogs.......CGeer, LCM, Lynn and a few others......who join in this "pi$$ing contest of association with victor paul wierwille." Cgeer's chest-thumping patriarch paper, martinfail's booklet of "VP and Me"......and now, JALvis' letter and highlighting wierwille's ministry and accomplishments. What drives these men to WANT ( ) a dead man to be "proud of them"....???

Just seems like many of the ex-twi "leaders" want their EGOS stroked........needing to play "Mr. Big Shot." John's doublespeak is about three beers short of his six-pack.......and he's designated to bring the beer to a party of 20. Makes no sense. On one hand, he talks about doctrinal errors, and practical errors, and "leaving twi wounded".........BUT it was the best spiritual movement at the time. It's time, John................really, it's over.

According to John Lynn, I fall into the category of a "disgruntled former follower".......and why is that? Because I choose to engage critical thinking skills to unravel wierwille's behavioral patterns of narcissism, sexual predator and abuse, lust, greed, power, and pride? And, John........I "experienced MORE of The Way" that you did . Does that give me *a larger experiential platform* from which to speak? Given that you, John, were one of "the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987"......and that CES is a twi-offshoot filled with pfal grads......and that you continue to be one of the "top dogs for CES/STFI [after major blunders in supporting Momentus and Personal Prophecy tangents].....imo,I think it is safe to say that your comments are extremely biased and another attempt to "rally the troops" amidst challenging times, a strained economy and rising fuel and food costs. From where I sit today.......I find your "experiential knowledge in twi and subsequent offshoot" quite ludicrous in any exercise to strengthen your perception of The Way, It Was. And, because of ex-twi "leaders" like you........I feel compelled to SPEAK OUT ON GREASESPOT in an attempt to suppress the ongoing deception of vpw/twi/offshoots and its cultish indoctrination. Recruitment and indoctrination were/are staple tools in twi's arsenal.........NOT the precepts and principles of the early Church. And, imo...........clearly wierwille-idolatry was at the core of the staff/corps experience, NOT being lead by holy spirit -- ie Christ in you. The doctrinal errors and practical application of Christian living were an antithesis at twi's headquarters. I admit, I am not a follower of CES/STFI or any other twi offshoot. Once bitten, twice shy......and after spending some time AWAY from the indoctrinational maze and "doctrinal" haze, THE WAY TO GO has become clear to me. Thanks.......but no thanks. You can label me "disgruntled"......I consider your words *deceiving*........fair enough? :) And, John........don't you think that God, via His holy spirit, was leading many away from twi's heavy-handed leadership and into the arms of comforting Christian ministries years before "you blew the whistle?" Once again........your pride is showing. When will the twi offshoots ever learn?

And, one more thing..... Does God lead someone to "light"......and then lead that person AWAY from "light?" Or, does the "feast at the table" one time nourish......and another time sicken those wayfaring "guests" who once were invited in? In the bizarre world of doublespeak......it seems to make sense to vpw apologists. :blink:

John Lynn's stated purpose. Seems like *the real you* is standing up for vpw/twi once again. <_<

Thanks, dontworrybehappy........... My twi days before the corps indoctrination were FILLED with love and power and excitement.......didn't really care much about vic, harry or whoever. Walking in the power of God with faith was exhillarating......life was simple. The corps indoctrination BROUGHT vic and the board of trustees into my life, front and center. There was a subtle wierwille-idolatry and subliminal consciousness that was taught throughout my corps indoctrination. Wierwille, and all things pertaining to wierwille, were elevated beyond any "christian training." Night owls centered around wierwille and the wierwille heritage........wierwille initiated the "pajama sleep-over in top floor wierwille library"..........the way woods campfire meetings would simply springboard into more wierwille-idolatry........uuuughh. Wierwille instigated the corps program IN HIS OWN IMAGE...............and it FAILED MISERABLY.

waysider......good points! It never ceases to amaze me......whenever wierwille's "spiritual perception" is held to the standard of his advanced class, he just can't spot dem debbil spurts, can he?

brideofjc said: Yeah.......imo, it seems that this blackmail/bribery issue is interlaced with adultery and the inner circle of twi. The complexities of it all.......and how it was 'silenced' for so long.......gives strong evidence that all those 'in and around the motorcoach' were culpable in a secret world of sin.

jeast........imo, I don't necessarily liken 'these guys (splinter groups) to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.' What wierwille spearheaded in twi took decades to devise and deceive.......from carjacking BG Leonard's class to wholesale plagiarism, from adultery to suicide victims, from conspiracy theories to paranoia, from stage persona to inner circle secrets, from 'the law of believing' to 'the absent christ', from small camper to motorcoach, from teaching 'cancer is a devil spirit' to dying of cancer.........NO, it's highly unlikely anyone following in wierwille's footsteps will attain and wield with absolute power such an organization as twi. BUT.........imo, what IS likely.....is that 'these guys' (splinter groups) WILL continue to interject snippets of wierwille's life 'and greatness' to THEIR followers. In this manner, the adulation and idolatry towards wierwille's name will continue into the next generation, and the next? Far outdistancing the 'teachings' and scripture one learned in twi is the MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING wherein people involving people takes center-stage in the activity rather than the simplicity that is in Christ and loving God wholeheartedly. Therefore......imo, groups likened to twi WILL CONTINUE to fixate on their identity within that group building a mindset of elitism and distancing themselves from the One Body. These groups have adopted twi's 'systematizing of error' and incorporated the same muscle components to 'move' others.........whereas true christian essence is being moved by compassion and thus, one is 'moved by the holy spirit'.....not man.

And, the QUESTIONS keep on coming...... ....1) Why is adultery listed FIRST in the works of the flesh [Gal. 5:19-21]..?? ....2) If wierwille was rooted in DECEIVING OTHERS AND HIMSELF (via this adultery 'doctrine' -- that some trace back to his van wert days)........was the corps program established with altruistic motives?....or was it fabricated in an intoxicating stupor to better 'serve his predation?' ....3) How could wierwille NOT see the long-term effects on these corps/staff/wow girls??......not being able to comprehend the long-range ramifications on these girls who would someday become mothers, and mothers would become grandmothers, and grandmothers would become great-grandmothers?? ....4) And, even in the *sunset years* of his reign.........NO REPENTANCE, but rather mentoring and encouraging martindale (and others??) to follow wierwille's (tupos) adultery pattern??.....[Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.] ....5) And, ge-er wanted to 'clean up twi'......yet, he sets the stage to VIGOROUSLY AVOID THIS TOXIC AGENDA THAT WIERWILLE UPHELD FOR DECADES?? Okay......that's enough questions for now. <_<

This bears repeating. From where I sit today.......of all the "pfal keys" in wierwille's class, NONE unlocked THE DOOR to my lord and savior Jesus Christ as mediator between God and men.

........a flow chart? Well, as they say....."it" flows DOWNHILL. And, who were the *right-n-left hand men' of wierwille??.......martindale and ge-er. According to credible sources, martindale was taught this adultery stuff from vpw 'to be a greater leader/lover of god's people.' And, with that 'trust factor' between wierwille and ge-er.......surely, ge-er would be one tier down the flow chart like martindale, right? Plus, add the nifty little 'shake-n-bake anyone who reads scho3nheit's adultery paper'.......tends to add culpability and one who is a major player on board. Where WalterC fits into the mix......I don't know. But it sure raises my eyebrows to see how he 'mishandled' this piece of research. Heck, who would have thought that writing a paper on adultery was FORBIDDEN.......SINCE IT WAS CONSIDERED NEW RESEARCH..?? Of course, one can't forget Howard..........and Don?? This flow chart would tend to "flow" according to access, association and accountability......in accordance with the next lower level. Of course, the podcast gave some insight into the yak twig.......so there ya go. With those names, the chart starts to take shape. No wonder it was.......THE SECRET AGENDA SOCIETY.

Good move, penworks........... Nice thread topic. Very thought-provoking. Thanks.

Absolutely!! ......... And, obviously......wierwille KNEW what he was doing was WRONG, otherwise he would have openly taught "the benefits of adultery" to all the corps......right? And, ya know.....4 sessions of the pfal class deal with the holy spirit field and how God OPENLY DISPLAYED the outpouring of His gift on the day of Pentecost. Wierwille knew II Corinthians 4:2.......didn't he? 2Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. <_<

So, once again.......when wierwille came across the topic of adultery, he would tend to ascribe to it as spiritual adultery..?? Like.....moving it into the "spirit of whoredoms" category or "spirit of lust".....diverting one's attention away from its *true intent.* Gee, what if we used these same "wierwille research skills" to Luke 18:20..? Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. ...1) Do not commit SPIRITUAL adultery. ...2) Do not SPIRITUALLY kill. ...3) Do not SPIRITUALLY steal. ...4) Do not bear SPIRITUAL false witness. ...5) SPIRITUALLY honour thy faher and thy mother. It gets kinda crazy to *spiritualize* everything........doesn't it?

socks.........yeah, "Diddly" went to run gartmore and "Squat" got ousted as twi's prez in 2000. Seriously though........a "deafening silence" would frame the topic of adultery in wierwille's world quite well. And, wasn't the Christian Family and Sex class filmed in like 1975 (?).......when wierwille was 58 years old? Heck, he could have skipped the slang terms for the breasts and genitalia and taught some BIBLICAL TRUTHS ON ADULTERY....... or was that too much to ask? When I exited twi and stepped into a management position.......this company mandated attendance for all managers on a Saturday conference dealing with professional conduct in the workplace. Among the topics covered in detail were communication skills, appropriate and inappropriate behavior, personal boundaries, sexual harrassment and many other areas of "professionalism." I learned MORE in this company seminar about these topics than all my years of corps/clergy with twi. Seems like wierwille/twi had AN UNWRITTEN POLICY to avoid this "adultery issue" at all costs.......so much for *it is written* but no one in twi can address the sin of adultery that God wants his very elect to know. <_<

Yeah, with vic's 'go ahead'.......martindale admits that he's 'done this hundreds of times and its 'administered godly profit' to these girls. [isn't that what the podcast stated.....of lcm's admissions?] And, Ge-er was SO ADAMANT in shutting down schoenhext's adultery paper.....makes for LOTS of speculation. Also, with Walter's response.........and later, walter goes on to 'join the geerite movement' with his research skills.....when he can't see A COMPARABLE SIXTH-GRADE UNDERSTANDING OF ADULTERY.

Whatever one calls it.......The Secret Agenda Society, the adultery club, the inner sanctum, the spiritually mature machos, or the wierwille wannabes.......it has the stench of 'seductive bribery' on it. How 'spiritually mature' does one have to get.......to join? Why didn't wierwille teach Adultery Bedside Manners to the corps? All the corps? Wasn't the corps 'training' supposed to equip us with spiritual truths? Yet, I never was taught on the benefits of adultery during my corps training. How about teaching all the clergy THIS...?? Nope......once again, even as twi clergy, I WAS NOT TAUGHT THIS. And furthermore..........THIS ADULTERY STUFF should have been handled in any respectable 'Christian Family and Sex' class. And why not write A SERIES OF ARTICLES ON ADULTERY in the way mag?.......rather than the regurgitating of 'blue book law of believing' stuff infinitum? Seems like 'the sin of adultery' has been given THE SILENT TREATMENT.......for a long, long time.

Okay, I listened to RD's interview of 'Through the Fog' a second time. And, it BEGS the question......If adultery was so *godly* why wasn't it OPENLY taught? Wierwille taught this stuff to who?????......THE SECRET AGENDA SOCIETY. So, Wierwille teaches this, supposed, godly impact of adultery to a select few.........martindale, for sure. How about geeer and townsxnd? Heck, I went through the corps indoctrination program, but NEVER heard this *secret agenda* that seemed to be reserved for the (cough, cough) 'spiritually mature.' Schoxnheit writes a research paper on adultery.........and WALTER SHUFFLES IT AWAY???? And, Ge-er mandates that any one who reads it will be fired, labeled pozzezzed and sent packing???? Others nod their head in agreement.......????? Was 'THE YAK TWIG' assembled to protect wierwille and his secret agendas?? It seems like RD was the only one who took a stand AGAINST ADULTERY........and was sent packing, because of it. My God.......here twi was this, supposedly, incredible RESEARCH ministry....and couldn't even get the straight answer on adultery being WRONG. And, of course it was 'spiritualized' as to be read as 'spiritual adultery'.............nice cover-up for the sinners and their sins. THE DOTS CONNECT BACK TO WIERWILLE. Heck, it seems to me like Ge-er's 'Passing of the Patriarch' paper was an attempt to gloss-over the deeply wounded in twi.......and pin the blame on the then-current trustees. Seems like that whole paper drips with idolatrous attempts to appease 'a godly direction'.........and uphold his idol, wierwille. Re-visiting this stuff some 20 years later...........now, from a better vantage point. Un-freaken-believable.....!!!

Thanks Ralph. Hearing all this from someone who was THERE.....seeing vpw before his departure to gartmore, then the subsequent areas of top leadership, the yak twig, the inside 'track' of hearing multiple sexual abuse allegations, and all the craziness that ended with your resignation from twi in 'house arrest' and etc, etc,......A RARE GLIMPSE to see thru 'this darkened twi-window' of deception and cover-up. I appreciate your labor of love.......then and now. You, Ralph.......are the REAL DEAL.

Oakspear......I must admit that I might have a dichotomy perspective of Word in Culture.....as waybrain gasps for its last breaths. On one hand, I reflect back on that *innocent era* of learning knowledge of "Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, walking by faith and the spirit of God, etc. etc".....the altruistic view of serving others...... a time when we spoke and sang of Jesus, The Healer of Blue Galilee. On the other hand, I see that this Word in Culture is more defined in saying *Wierwille's Word and attempting to sculpter the world around it*....sorta speak. IT NEVER WAS -- the twi ministry I thought it was. And sadly, it seems that wierwille's agendas were more aligned with *marketing a new and unparalleled product*......'creating a new elite race of believers' under the auspices of wierwille doctrine. Whatever. And today........the wierwille splinter groups 'plod-along' in plenty of flavors and variety. Waydale and GS have definitely pulled back the curtains for all to see "the wierwille of oz."

Ham.....yeah, I too had this book but tossed it in the trash some 10 years ago. When stuff like THIS surfaces.......imo, it shows how far twi has fallen. And, today......with their steady march into idolized-wierwillism, it is befitting to find themselves steeped in legalism.....and further from God. And, again......I still think that those years, around 1979-1982, twi was on the threshold of emerging "from a cornfield cult" into something far bigger, and far reaching.......WORD IN CULTURE. Yet.......imo, wierwille held such a tight rein on his 'kingdom-dumb' that any spirit-filled leader was NOT going to squander God's calling in 'wierwille-world.' And further......imo, many good men and women were EXITING twi doors prior to Ge-er's poop-paper in 1986. Yeah, this opened the floodgates for the first exodus.......but really, many were *trickling* away as twi entered the 1980s. It was inevitable.......with families, careers, goals, etc. Guess twi never did 'own the monopoly' on spirit-filled men and women....