skyrider

On so many levels, I think that Paul, had he seen the operational structure and caste system of twi, would have confronted these issues in a "I New Knoxville" epistle much like the first epistle to the Corinthians. If no true repentance, then there'd be no need for a "II New Knoxville" epistle. Some issues to address: 1) Why a class system? When people are spiritually in need..........feed them NOW. 2) Go, Stand and Speak..........the "come and see" version was more OT version, the days of God's Temple. 3) Itineraries, more itineraries........get to the people. And, don't send out novice "wows" who are vulnerable. 4) Corps training is jaded.......it's simply indoctrinating people into a system, no real *walking by holy spirit* growth. 5) Church leaders need to be blameless......no adultery. Wierwille you are out! 6) Why this bloated compound in ohio? Elevates pride, not love. .....what about more support in regions? 7) Let my people go. Don't oppress them with man-made policies. Let them live and breath, love and laugh. As far as VPW living a traditional minister's life.......I'd have to disagree with you there. I suppose for about 25 years he would fit that category, but the last 15 years (1970-1985) he was catapulted into cult leader/celebrity status. What wierwille wanted.....wierwille got. Socks, I certainly appreciate your position. Your posts always are thought-provoking and have a nice blend of respectful flavor to them.

That's a good synopsis of the early church's beginnings, socks. Thanks. I don't think centralization characters the early church either.........and certainly, not in the aspects of Paul's ministry. The point I was attempting to make.......twi equates itself as "the first century church in the present," BUT the pyramid structure and heavy-handed control that wierwille built in twi stands in opposition to the revelation of the Acts of the Apostles. Sure, the doctrine had to be set forth, but much of the teaching revolved around a dynamic freedom in Christ and holy spirit power and open dialogue and living epistle known and read of all men........not the week after week droning, no questions asked, that twi embraced. Even the transition from Peter to Paul......God's energizing was at work to bring the church along, as a father careth for his children, according to His heart and His timetable.

socks........in your studies of Acts in light of the *church administration* for years and years, isn't it quite clear that the Jerusalem early church leaders attempted to mix the new revelations with OT law under a centralized system......much like twi's failed attempt to centralize? Sure, the Jerusalem leaders in Acts spoke of new things.......but the power of God was dynamically moving in Paul's ministry to the Gentiles and other men who followed these post-pentecost revelations. I worked on staff at twi's hq for several years and.......imo, it was corporate business with "bless yous" mixed in. As a department coordinator, I was responsible to work with several departments weekly....and when big events rolled in, the planning and communication quadrupled. Sure, it was a mixture of challenge and excitement, wanting to be my best for God and all. But really..........THIS twi-corporate grind was very different that what I'd read in Acts, very different than the power and healing in action, whole cities turning from Satan to the power of God. The "top leaders" stopped doing itineraries.....or, they had to have the pomp and trimmings of forerunners ahead of them to set up the big meeting. The region/limb/branch guys were out and about........but the corporate hub was a cesspool of posturing and backbiting. In the end, twi's "headquarters" fell into the abyss of arrogance and self-absorption. In retrospect, I tend to think that wierwille's pfal class (although basicly stolen and much plagiarized) had some truth and some error.......a mixed bag. But, God could STILL work with that. Heck, even H3fner & D00p saw some benefit to it..... in the beginning. But.........when wierwille added the centralization, the narcisstic control, the pyramid structure, the corps cloning, the squelching of individuality, the disdain for anything other than twi, etc........yeah, then, for sure, the message of the first century church and its dynamic operation was irredeemable of significant impact falling prey to the doctrines of men and seducing spirits. <_<

That's it, rascal........the new lion king was in charge. Now, wierwille saw and felt the humiliation of being an outcast. His days were numbered.....his health problems mounting......his cancer teaching imploding.......his legacy marginalized. But, in going to gartmore.......wierwille could count on Cgeer to fawn all over him, every move, every gesture, every utterance. Wierwille craved that. Wierwille needed that. Wierwille expected that. In the end, wierwille wanted "Everybody to listen TO ME."

Good point to remember, socks.........thanks. v.12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabus and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. Now THAT is the kind of movement that I could easily throw my heart, soul, mind, strength and TITHE to support. Yeah.......but UNLIKE churches, twi's hq is a behemoth, in-house staffed cult compound. In the mid-80s, the staff had swelled to something like 575.......security guys patrolling the grounds 24/7, personal housekeepers & nannies for the trustees, a valet for vp, a valet for lcm, a lady-staffer for mrs., a staff assistant for mrs. owens, a personal secretary (gate-keeper) for don & howie, 60-70 way builders, 18-25 bookstore personnel, etc. etc. etc. etc. Yes........EXTORTION comes to mind. The field folk are supporting an ungodly system that funnels ALL MONIES to twi's hq and gives back nothing except script-read "teachings" (if one PAYS for the tape subscription). The way rag looks more like a children's publication with its cover of make-believe......and way productions is a rehashed lawrence welkish flavor that must appeal to the 60-year old crowd. Comparing twi's behemoth plodding through the mud with the first century church men, like Paul & Barnabus..........is like comparing a hippopotamus with a squirrel. <_<

Okay, Whitedove...........according to your admission (or silence) on GS posts, you have NOT gone wow, you have NOT been inresidence corps, you have NOT been staff at twi's hq, THEREFORE......you answers would be in RED See........it's not that hard to answer a question with either 'yes' or 'no.' :)

WD.....you keep side-stepping rascal's questions. So, I'll give it a try. Question #1 If you, Whitedove, have never gone WOW Ambassador, do you have first-hand information of the WOW experience? Question #2 If you, Whitedove, have never gone WOW Ambassador, do you have first-hand information of the WOW program? Question #3 If you, Whitedove, have never gone inresidence Corps, do you have first-hand interaction of the corps experience? the daily schedule? the wierwille-teaching-and-drinking-drambuie corps nights? the sleep deprivation? Question #4 If you, Whitedove, have never worked on staff at twi's hq, do you have first-hand interaction of staff meetings? staff/roa set-up schedules? presidents' cabinet and department oversight? layout of osc offices? Question #5 If you, Whitedove, have never signed on for any of twi's programs.....left your comfort zone and area.....and followed the guidelines of these programs, how can you speak by experience (ginosko) on this discussion board? Question #6 If you, Whitedove, simply reitterate the propaganda of twi into these discussions, how can you possibly be taken seriously since you have NO FIRST-HAND TESTIMONY of twi's programs and staff involvement? Okay......that's probably enough questions.....for now.

I agree ! Wierwille had to stand at the top and REMAIN at the top.......and he sabotaged any unity or forward momentum just a month prior to his death. Nice move......

It sits there like a diamond !! ALL sunday teaching services will put you to sleep, very boring.

EXACTLY!........after taking BG Leonard's class in 1953 and teaching it as his own, wierwille STAYED FOUR MORE YEARS in his denomination, sucking on the salary support......all the while, gaining momentum to eventually break away and do his own thing. Same thing with many of those "splinter group guys" back in 1987-89. Like I stated, W@tkins was vocally supporting cgeer for at least TWO YEARS......salaried by twi. W@tkins wasn't planning to move out of the limb home either. And...........did Cgeer really have any intentions of reconciling this whole "patriarch parade" and help martindale/trustees be fully in charge again??? I seriously doubt it. Heck, even by 1983 cgeer was bucking communication from f1nnegan as the worldwide outreach coordinator. Cgeer was already dictating what europe would and wouldn't do......cgeer made it known that the european corps would NOT be coming to the annual corps week/roa, but would come every THIRD year. IMO.........patriarch paper or not, geer stance or not..........I think that all this splintering would have happened regardless. It's just the nature of things......when wierwille died, many of field corps leadership was in their mid 30s to early 40s and READY TO LEAD. State coordinators were ALREADY sending out monthly newsletters, traveling around their state, in the living rooms of these followers...........what the heck was twi (or gartmore) doing FOR THEM anyways??? And, california being so far away........no surprise there. Yep, imo......the splintering was going to happen anyway. Geer only sped up the process. <_<

For the record....... :unsure: Martindale's "loyalty letter" was sent out in March 1989. In the state of Indiana, the limb guy R1ch W@tk1ns, was standing firmly "in Cgeer's corner" at least by July 1987........he received a bi-monthly paycheck from twi for nearly TWO YEARS as he promoted Gartmore/Geer. When I visited the limb bookstore in March 1988, the current newletter from gartmore was next to the photocopy machine for anyone who wanted to copy extras and distribute them. In April 1988, I attended the Indiana clergy meeting at the limb home. Five clergy were present and W@tkins was obviously throwing all his support to Geer/Gartmore..........all the while, W@tkins and his family received a twi-salary and lived at the Indiana limb home. Having had two unpleasant experiences with Cgeer, I was NO cgeer supporter........so the weekend meetings were a mixed bag, for me. During this period of time, many region/limb guys were flying over to Gartmore to "stand with The Man." Whatever......I just didn't see it that way. So, yeah..........martindale sent out the letter. After two years of W@tkins living off his twi-salary......and fixing his boat in the limb garage......and promoting gartmore every chance he got..........two years and more!.........how long should these guys be allowing to waver between twi & gartmore?????? Imo.............WIERWILLE screwed it up! Wierwille ordained cgeer in '82 and sent him to Europe......wierwille fueled the competitiveness throughout the corps program, amongst leaders. Wierwille buddied with cgeer, shared the dog-training with cgeer, read the same books, the same paranoia, guns, etc. etc........all the while, giving lcm the spiritual nod. And, imo.......if wierwille was half the man he proclaimed to be, he would have nipped this stuff in the bud back in 1982 - 1984. But no.........wierwille was too busy with his way production high country caravan, his "snow-way," and getting ready to ride his motorcycle to canada and back. Then, to top it all off..........wierwille runs to gartmore and, supposedly, unloads his guts on cgeer........and shortly thereafter dies. I had NO idea what was specifically happening all around the country, but it was crazy in my neck of the woods. And, to this day........W@tkins is still an avid geer supporter.....just not salaried by the way international. <_<

Thanks.....okay, the interim corps salary went up $25 a month in 1983. For many of us, working 9-10 hour days, plus brc setup and ushering, etc. etc......70 hours per week was norm. At $100 a month..............we were paid about 35 cents an hour. <_<

........it seems like most of the splinter groups are staunch vpw supporters, because it facilitates their efforts of groupthink, "good ole day" nostalgia, and the money flowing in. Just seems like so many of those region guys saw their chance to be 'top gun'........and took it. <_<

Of course, I gotta say.......... In filling out blue forms for some 18 years, branch reports, class reports, etc..........from the field perspective, I think it would be fair to say that nearly 95% of twi revenue was abundant sharing. Yes, there were the occasional entries for class registration or special class fees, but they BY FAR were the exception to the rule. From the corporate perspective, twi's meager salary to its staff......and 50-70 interim corps each year (late 70s to mid 80s) were paid $75 a month.........yes, twi profited from tape subscriptions, book sales, major events, as some hq staff worked those 70+ hour weeks with no overtime.

Yeah......the fat pig provided the bacon for twi. And, in keeping with this analogy.........little chickens, in the rundown chicken coop, kept eggs on the table for breakfast.

Yeah......SO MUCH of twi's operation is in-house service at hq. The many departments seem to layer one over another to help assist the other. What IS the service they provide on a non-profit basis? Rehashed classes?.......a weekly script-read "teaching" tape?...... micro-management skills?........dependent counseling?.........WHAT? And........even if twi exists for another 20 years, it's aging staff are following in the steps of dorothy owens and rhoda wierwille, working into their 80s. They can call it "God's Household" or whatever.........but it has all the makings of a rural retirement facility. <_<

mstar........I agree with your assessment. I never said they were smart or anything........I simply was trying to explain their system. Had twi been patient and smart.......they never would have driven away the faithful. Heck, if wierwille/martindale had any brains.....they would have heartily WELCOMED THE CHILDREN, THEIR ACTIVITIES, THEIR FRIENDS......the next generation would have padded the twi coffers greatly!!! Plus, like you said......the will donations to twi. Heck, if twi's board had any brains......they'd get their butts in gear and hit the road, do more itineraries, get out with the people that faithfully give. Don't they realize that the field folk can SEE THE HYPOCRISY????

Well......with a "home fellowship" system, MUCH of the operational expense is absorbed on the field. In other words, its out-of-pocket for every fellowship coordinator......buy songbooks, set-up meeting, heat/airconditioning, refreshments, gas expense for witnessing events, etc. etc. etc. Hey.......it's about as close to a self-propetuating system that is being scammed today. The further I've distanced myself from twi..........I believe its MILES APART from how the first century church truly operated when apostles and leaders traveled to the areas. Twi has morphed into a CENTRALIZED CORPORATION OF SALARIED DEAD-BEATS THAT FEED OFF THE HARD WORK OF OTHERS. It just ain't right.

Time and time again, I see threads that make reference to pfal.....or wow....or roa.....and the money that *it* generated for twi. Sure, when the pfal class was $100 there was a profit since the few paperbacks, the syllabus, operating costs for twi, the packaging and shipping costs, and the one-year subscription still left a sizable mark up. BUT........wierwille's class was only the floodgate for The Revenue Stream of "tithes and manipulations"...er, "tithes and offerings" that poured into twi as faithful followers faithfully opened their wallets!! Remember, the tithe was minimum........a "cheerful giver" would give MORE. At the end of pfal, the little booklet Christians Should Be Prosperous was required reading......and follow-up emphasis at the twig level was recommended. The wow program only generated revenue in direct proportion to those who STAYED FAITHFULLY TITHING TO TWI.......not the measly two classes that were run that year on the wow field. The corps program didn't generate any substantial revenue. Perhaps, twi was able to sock away some of the sponsorship money (room and board) as they crammed 40 corps into some of those sleeping quarters in emporia.....or when they doubled-up married couples sharing one bedroom. Perhaps, twi was able to squirrel away some extra money by cost-savings on large quantities of food service. Of course, when corps were dropped......sponsorship money was absorbed back into twi's coffers, or whatever. BUT.........The Tithe Doth Provide FOR TWI. In doing the math..........10% of one's $30,000 income (in the 70's) = $3,000 per year. Then, if one was making $40,000 in the 80's........$4,000 per year (minimum). Add book sales, tape subscriptions, class fees, adv. class special registration, love offerings after events or roa, corps sponsorship, home fellowship expenses at one's own home, gas money spent for witnessing each year (non-reimbursed), updated class -- new fees, etc. etc. Multiply this scenario by the thousands, and add larger contributors, and free-labor from the corps, and free sales force to get others to tithe.......and it exponentially gets quite substantial. In twi's eyes...........one was "faithful" when he was FAITHFULLY OPENING HIS WALLET. By 1996, LCM was promoting the concept of Plurality Giving (like it says in Acts).......and, 10% was bare-bones giving. In fact, 15% - 20% was more desirable ..........but still NOT God's will. For in it's "true sense and purpose, the first century church were into plurality giving".....ie if you and your family could live on $24,000 a year and your combined income was $44,000 a year THEN PLURALITY GIVING MEANT THAT YOU GIVE TWI $20,000 THAT YEAR. Now THAT is a revenue stream that is over-flowing its banks!!!!!

Never choke in a restaurant in the South Two hillbillies walk into a bar. While having a shot of whiskey, they talk about their moonshine operation. Suddenly, a woman at a nearby table, who is eating a sandwich, begins to cough. And, after a minute or so, it becomes apparent that she is in real distress. One of the hillbillies looks at her and says, 'Kin ya swallar?' The woman shakes her head no. Then he asks, 'Kin ya breathe?' The woman begins to turn blue and shakes her head no. The hillbilly walks over to the woman, lifts up her dress, yanks down her drawers and quickly gives her right butt cheek a lick with his tongue. The woman is so shocked that she has a violent spasm and the obstruction flies out of her mouth. As she begins to breathe again, the Hillbilly walks slowly back to the bar. His partner says, 'Ya know, I'd heerd of that there 'Hind Lick Maneuver' but I ain't niver seen nobody do it!'

Some 20 years have passed since twi splintered into dozens (or hundreds?) of factions and "havens".....and yet, further factions and splintering was inevitable. In my little corner of the world, three big names were front runners........Cgeer, JAL, Ssann.......to rival twi's fortified dominance. I'm quite sure this was a very narrow perception.......but, to me, cgeer was purportedly speaking and writing post-humously on vpw's behalf, JAL (and others) wrote a 37-page report to address and challenge twi's failures and S@nn had latched onto Rev. BG Leonard (and his work) wanting to bring things back to the scriptures and holy spirit work. The whole scene was like........the circus had come to town. Each vendor was barking for my attention, my involvement, my money. When I met with Ric@rdo face-to-face and asked about Cgeer's comment in POP that, supposedly, the trustees "were murderers".......Ric@rdo explained it as an exaggerated false statement (a LIE). For me, the geerite group had NO appeal........NONE. No haven there. JAL's assertions were well organized and presented to many..........but I simply wasn't ready to jump. Yes, LCM and the trustees had lots of issues, but..........???? Fast forward to today........and LOOK at the path JAL ( & graes3e, sch...) has taken his "followers." What a haven????......momentus! high prophetess! nose-spider prophecies! In talking with many ex-twiers, just seems like ALOT of us took 8-10 YEARS to get on our feet again.......self-dependency, socially, financially, spiritually, etc. And, even though I stayed in twi until 1998...........the "havens" were in pockets around the country that still had good, humble leadership. Perhaps, that could be said about CES and Geer's stuff too..........but, imo, the Momentus fiasco, the evil prophecies, the post-humous drivel of a dead man, franchise exploitation, etc. etc..... I just tend to think that "my little haven" wasn't all that bad compared to others. JUST SAY NO.............to twi splinter groups!

So, Mr. Linder..........are the WayGB still staying up at night looking at GS? Nothing much else to do around there (except for the occasional pizza run).......since the "security guys" stopped driving girls to dayton motels for craig.

91 PAGES OF THREADS ......on the About the Way forum and archives, waydale documents, radio episodes, links, etc. etc............no wonder twi & splinter groups discourage their followers from this site. * Personal Testimonies of abuse * Errors in pfal discussed * Plagairism documented extensively * Firsthand accounts of WOW experiences * Regimentation and indoctrination of corps * Sexual Predation of VPW & LCM * Splinter Groups....Momentus & Personal Prophecy * Twi's Evolving Methods of Subtle Control * Etc. etc. * 91 pages......and more IMAGINE.........how this information empowers any newbies who encounter twi and search the internet??? IMAGINE.........how this information would have affected YOU had you see this stuff before signing the green card??? IMAGINE.........the hundreds and hundreds who have STOPPED TWI-AFFILIATION because of GS??? Thanks Paw for keeping the doors open here......and the kitchen staff busy. :)

Ham.........I know, I hear you. Sure, people want support, fellowship and direction.............but imo, for many individuals, a cycle of guilt needs to be addressed and eliminated. The mogs of twi injected terminolgy.....ie cop-outs, possessed, greasespots, god won't spit at you, your children will die, etc.......to infuse an atmosphere of FEAR and CONTROL. Many...yes, thousands....lived in this cult climate for DECADES where "a cycle of guilt" was deeply etched in their minds. Of course, there were some wonderful ex-twi leaders who comforted and counseled individuals as they made their exit and into the real world. Thank God for such love, care and concern. BUT.......other "leaders" had their sights on JOB SECURITY and MONEY. By starting an offshoot ministry..........INSTANT recognition, INSTANT transition, INSTANT income, INSTANT conformity. With little tweaking, it's "business as usual" as long as they "keep the sheep in their fold." THEREFORE......the hireling, needs to instill some fear that there's a big, bad world out there and you can't trust the churches either!!!!! The cycle of guilt...................is REAL. The cycle of dependence........is REAL. Offshoots like these cycles. Offshoots like repeat customers.

Yes, geisha.........disputing excessively over these "he said/she said" word battles grows tiresome, eh? So often, I think of Jesus' words......"Beware of the Herodians and the Pharisees"........the political leaders of that day and religious hierarchy seem to adopt the same type of posturing. The party line is, often, more important than the solution. Regards.