skyrider

Sorry Ted.............for having posted some of MY first-hand knowledge and realities of wierwille. Some people, no matter what you say...........will always elevate wierwille to a mog status and "spiritual pedestal" despite the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. Some splinter groups, with associations to the wierwille kids.......like to sanitize wierwille's name and legacy. Take care. God bless and speak the truth in love. skyrider

Asking those questions.......is like asking if wierwille ever rode in rough-shod over walter's research department. An abusive situation doesn't necessarily mean "taking over"........just DOMINEERING. The mog title ALWAYS trumphed any cards you were holding. :blink:

Yeah, but......."the cold wind of change was blowing in" around 1978.....(imo). And.........there were several corps nights or high country caravan rehearsals that wierwille DID CONFRONT and THROW HIS WEIGHT AROUND. If I remember correctly, Ted......you were out on the field for some of those years, gone from hq. Wierwille got VERY INVOLVED......with his quartet, "the victors." Wierwille talked openly about things on corps night many times. Wierwille took great pride in knowing that "his keeds" were going to the Grand Ole Opry. Wierwille was at all those high country caravan rehearsals........he strongly confronted v1ci1 Allxn and told her to sway with the music and "throw her boobs around." Okay......no big deal, but wierwille would publically humiliate some musicians and singers. That's just the way he was......but the J0e F@ir confrontation was MUCH MORE than a singing critique......it was CHARACTER ASSASSINATION (imo).....and wierwille was 66 yrs old. Why did wierwille have to *strip someone down publically?*.......and then, go on and talk about it at lunchtime in front of the hq staff?.........manipulation? coercion? Gee, doesn't *love* cover a multitude of sins? And, wasn't the "lockbox teaching" (cough, cough) still in operation?? Why is wierwille sanitized from these tantrums, outbursts, character assassinations? I know that wierwille didn't "control" way productions..........but he sure as he11 implemented a CLIMATE OF FEAR WHEN HE WALKED INTO A ROOM. <_<

YES.........it is amazing how many times wierwille got a *free pass* because he was the "mog." And.........that's why I think that some of the early corps got tired of wierwille's hissy-fits by adv. class '79 and were distancing themselves from the whole thing (twi). <_<

Jim.........first of all, I am no authority on twi's history in the 60s, but will share a little bit of what stands out to me from those "pillar meetings at hq" during my corps training and my years on hq staff. When our corps groups met with these "pillars" .....one couple per night........ge0rge & bern1ta j3ss, m@l & j@n ge0rge, erm@l & d0rothy ow3ns, edd1e and d0nna d0ers@m, d1ck & de3 fischb@ch, rueb3n & rh0da wierwille, and a couple of others detailed aspects from 1957 to when "those hippies started arriving at those hq summer camps." One thing to remember........a sizeable following in twi centered around the troy/piqua area (Ohio) and wanted vpw to move the ministry's hdqtrs to troy. But, by late 1959/60.....when the decision was made to move from van wert to the wierwille farmstead, many in troy/piqua quit overnight. In April 1960 wierwille instituted the Diamond Club.....looking for 75 poeople who would stand with him, support the ministry, and move the Word as a team [p. 254 Born Again to Serve. Six commitments were listed.......and #6 -- abundantly share the first fruits of your income with the ministry each week. Mrs. Wierwille gives no specifics in her book of the Diamond Club success........i.e. the silence seems to speak for itself. Even though wierwille was teaching 8-12 classes per year..........the support was meager, at best. And, after the brc was built in 1962........twi promoted that old video showing a stream of cars pulling into the brc for sunday teachings by the renowned wierwille. Yet, when we met with those "pillars of the church"......some laughed at that bit of history, saying that there were like 10 cars altogether and people entered the brc, walked straight through, out the back door and the car drove around the brc to get in line again........a deceptive ploy.........even then!!! But yes........wierwille's demand for support and commitment and work days and etc. etc......drove away many of those german farmers and supporters in the 60s. Even the farmer on wierwille road, south side near the brc, quit coming.....he and wierwille had a parting of ways. Wierwille's constant demands were just too much.........and only a small number of "pillars" are credited with standing with wierwille (before the hippies arrived). Lots of stuff here.......and others know lots more than I do.

Wierwille and Musicians thread..........reminded that wieriwlle ran off Joe F@ir. This High Country Caravan stuff happened in the fall of '83............wierwille was 66 years old.

Yeah.....I was there too. And, like you said.....Joe's on-stage performance was one of the best that night. Whatever set wierwille off.........it had NOTHING to do with Joe's performance. I had just witnessed ANOTHER victster-in-charge smear campaign. Uugh........I should have left twi much sooner.

Wierwille ran off many of the "brc faithful" through the 60s.......and would heap praise on the five or six couples who drove in every sunday (early 70s) for wierwille's preaching. Some of those old-timer faithful despised wierwille intensely. Wierwille ran off the zero corps........and labeled them "zero corps" to imply worthless or dead-beats. Wierwille had his top men run off many from 1976-82.......while wierwille stayed in the shadows directing the action. Martindale did not have an extensive layer of top-level yes-men.......many of his peers were all-to-ready to watch him crash and burn. Besides, while martindale was busy in his dancing tights, some of his peers were busy plotting and calculating against him. Martindale, in his ignorance and ego, was blind-sided. Most of us here were not around in 1962-67 when wierwille was 45-50 years old......and traveling with howard, and hunting, and whatever. Many of us here witnessed a much older and softer wierwille.......60 year old (pfal 77). But here on GreaseSpot, I've recounted THREE MAJOR BLISTERING CONFRONTATIONS BY WIERWILLE that exceeded anything I'd ever seen from martindale or geer or lynn....and wierwille was 62 or 63 years old when these occurred. Martindale, Geer, Lynn, F1nnegan, etc..........were trained wholesale by wierwille and bought into this twisted "christian confrontation logic" by isolating a few scriptures of Jesus and the Pharisees or OT stands against prophets of Baal, etc.

And........as this INSULATING tier of good-hearted people were run off.....replaced by yes men and bullies.....the newly-graduated corps were trained in CONFRONTATIONAL MODE and advanced class grads started to see the ugly, nasty treatment that the corps served under. Besides......craig was so anal, he thought advanced class grads would immediately jump thru the hoops as well.

Someone with inside knowledge, an eye-witness account......told me this happened at one of those corps-tels next to the corps chalet. Remember, cgeer was rarely seen with his wife.

And......it can't be said more succintly than THAT.

waysider........I'm not sure that it could be classified as *a moment*..........but I do find it interesting to review the progression of wierwille's ascension BACK ON THE THRONE OF PROMINENCE. 1) wierwille ordains geer in 1982.....and sobs like he's sending his own son away 2) geer is assigned gartmore and europe responsibilities 3) wierwille put mantle on martindale in 1982......and retires from the throne. 4) martindale "increases in stature".......wierwille is "no longer in spotlight." 5) wierwille, with eye problem, cancer and needing praise/pity.....goes to geer in final days. 6) geer claims vpw gave "last will" to him......even in pop paper, no specifics. 7) geer can only trump martindale/trustees by ELEVATING wierwille and SANITIZING wierwille. 8) pop paper was a LOYALTY LETTER FOR WIERWILLE......the sinister plan worked. 9) geer had a better "vp and me" trump card than martindale or don or howard 10) Even in a small kingdom.......it's nice to accompany the king. <_<

Twinky......yes, *Geer basked in reflected glory*.....nicely put! Concerning the aspect, had Geer NOT published POP.......of course, to even go there one is walking back into history and speculating the outcome. But for the sake of discussion, it deserves a juxtaposition. It is my opinion that twi/pfal had run its course for many by the mid-80s......especially the long-standing faithful and the corps 1-10. And, when I reflect on many of those 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th corps.......many had ALREADY distanced themselves from twi. When Geer's paper and actions stirred the pot......he also turned up "the heat" with those dissipating buzz words, "father in the word, original ministry," etc. and challenged the corps to reinstate their allegiance to wierwille. I am quite sure that all of us have vastly diverging opinions of all this..........but then, LOOK AT THE FRUIT OF GEER'S ACTIONS. WHAT WAS THE RESULT? Newletters, subscriptions and books that gave hundreds of references back to wierwille.......a franchising of classes where pfal was the bedrock on which to build. Nearly 23 years have passed since Geer *came to America* to read "wierwille's last will and testament." In the end, what has been the result? Another thing.........patriarch -- 1. the father and ruler of a family or tribe, as one of the founders of the ancient Hebrew families; in the Bible, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons were patriarchs. 2. a person regarded as the founder or father of a colony, religion, business, etc. As I saw it, Geer's title of his paper........"The Passing of a Patriarch" was a journalized account of Geer wanting to stand approved before (his "father") wierwille, the patriarch of the family. [Much like JAL noted in June 2008 that he thought wierwille would be proud of him.] To me, it's an interesting venture into the psyche of the man, Chr1s Ge3r. Guess I just never bought into that "father in the verd"......"patriarch" stuff. <_<

nowIsee........interesting points. Thanks. While I understand that some might appreciate the fact that Cgeer's paper and actions spurred a mass "exodus"......was it really an exodus, if say 50% climbed aboard his flagship "ministry?" With all that Waydale and GS have exposed in the past ten years on wierwille........it seems to me, that Cgeer caused a diversion, sanitized wierwille and his legacy, and cranked up his Euro-twi ministry. One of the greatest feats in a con game........is to do it and they don't even know they were conned.

I think one of the reasons he said it was.......because Obama is the first black president and is the new "role model" in this Black History month. Lately, Bill Cosby has been making the rounds again.....and speaking to the young African-Americans. One of the statistics that seems to come to the surface is 50% of blacks are dropping out of high school. I have no idea if that is correct, but it seems to have been the nearest direct link.

Yes, yes, yes...........deviating from wierwille's path was the *spiritual offense* according to Geer (and others). Somewhere along the way, we took the wrong fork ......we were not following the signposts of pfal. No longer was God's blessing on our lives. We were no longer "following the yellow brick road." How long did it take to PULL BACK THE CURTAIN and see "the wonderful wizard of oz?" <_< Geer could not have been more wrong. Geer was pointing us to keep on, keeping on. The 1986 POP paper was simply a diversion.....to follow Geer (who was following wierwille). Geer was a post-humous mediator to help us continue following a false teacher, a dead man's works. Whether we bolted to his splinter, or another splinter matters very little.........it was just another diversion on a detour road.

At times, when Geer's POP paper enters the discussions here at GS......some view it as a clear-cut disclosure of the ills and cover-ups in twi. Yet, that is far from the reality of how it unfolded. Even the very fact that Geer attacked the *adultery paper and its author* gives a clear indication that Geer's actions were to sanitize wierwille and his legacy. sanitize......1. to make sanitary, as by sterilizing 2. to free from anything considered undesireable, damaging. It is not my purpose in this thread to review Geer's paper, but to address that Geer DECEPTIVELY and INTENTIONALLY muddied the waters. Here was a guy.....who intricately studied every fabric in wierwille's (and dotsie's) life. Everything!!.......likes, dislikes, mannerisms, pet peeves, eating habits, dog training, conspiracy theories, books, motorcoach driver, bodyguard, evasive driving lessons, guns, paranoia, hidden secrets, agendas, etc. etc. YET......the Patriarch Paper sanitizes the life and legacy of wierwille in every way. All attacks were laid at the feet of the current trustees..........Craig, Don and Howard. Broad generalizations that we had "lost the word".......... And, only geer could lead "all who were humble" back to wierwille's "original ministry." The INFORMATION TSUNAMI on Waydale and GreaseSpot these past ten years have exposed wierwille and twi from every imaginable aspect. Clearly, imo........geer *idolized* wierwille in every sense of the word and saw this opportunity to power-grab a huge chunk of followers. And, obviously........geer was quick to BURY ANY WIERWILLE-ADULTERY ISSUES with threats of excommunication and spirit-possession labeling. Even the current "Way theology/sex" thread shows how devious wierwille was in twisting scripture. What direction did Geer give??? What solutions came to the forefront???..........Oh, yeah --- subscribe to HIS tapes and listen to HIS posthumous rehashing of pfal and soon, you too, will be indoctrinated back into the wierwille fold. Same song, different pew.

ABSOLUTELY ! Imagine.................a 20 year old corps girl, after a year of isolation on the wow year, goes inresidence. Eight months of isolation, eight months of indoctrination.......and wierwille come to teach. The fervor spills across the campus as corps line the circle drive and wildly cheer his motorcoach arrival. Special way production numbers are rehearsed. Special food is served knowing wierwille will attend the supper meal. At supper, the corps coordinator pours adulation on wierwille and the applause is deafening. Wierwille speaks and talks about God's special calling for each of the corps. Within two hours, wierwille is teaching Romans and expounds on grace and freedom in this administration. At times, he speaks slowly and deliberatly.......talking to his keeds. The teaching ends with a special, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" rendition.....and wierwille sings along. As wierwille walks off-stage, the corps coordinator has a special announcement. In 20 minutes......a pajama party with wierwille. Everyone comes back in pajamas and robes. Soft music and wierwille sips his coffee (and drambuie) and shares a little about how God called him to this unique ministry......yada, yada, yada. When the lights go out, and time to sleep...... wierwille slips off to his motoroach. Then, in the subtleness of darkness, one of wierwille's aides whispers to this 20 year old girl.......wierwille would like you to come to the motorcoach. Feeling surprised, overwhelmed and elated, she quickly responds. With liquer on the table, wierwille is waiting as she enters............ Isolation..........indoctrination..........adulation............expectation..... .....realization............further isolation.

One's support system was addressed in PFAL..........remember wierwille saying, "For the next three month put away your reading material and things that distract you and delve into these truths of the more abundant life. And, I guarantee that if you do this......you won't even know yourself after that." (paraphrased) No questions asked in pfal.........NOW, put away your material and critical thinking skills ---> Go wow.......now, the physical isolation. Meager wages brings confinement. Go corps.....physical isolation and indoctrination. Peer pressure to submit. Work on staff.......live on grounds, meager salary, phones in hallway at dormitory, isolated in rural setting, keep 'em busy, twi propaganda at lunchtime, discourage emotions, shut down and conform, etc. Yes...........physical and mental and emotional isolation is real. <_<

rascal......in realistic terms, no, there were NOT two kinds of people in twi or the corps. But your point is very thought-provoking in the sense of twi teachings and black/white mentality. How often the spearhead of a teaching was driving the point of one or the other.......God vs. devil, truth or error, light or darkness, believing or not believing, genuine or counterfeit, corps or non-corps, etc. Could it be that countless teachings and examples brought us to the point of perceiving a leader or follower choice? Isn't there a cliche?........."Lead, follow or get out of the way." Like that scripture, what you LOOK AT, you become........I tend to think that wierwille/martindale and others were always in the spotlight and an imprint (tupos) that registered consciously or subconsciously. Either way, there was no mistake in perception. If you wanted to be "a leader in twi".......then you need to have those qualities. And, what were those "qualities?"..........out-spoken, aggressive, confrontational, adamant, demanding, forceful, etc. And, that's where the rubber meets the road, sorta speak........a leader was MORE VALUABLE TO GOD than a follower. Maybe it was pushing buttons of ego, or whatever......but why would one "just" follow when God needed so many leaders in this world. Do you have "natural leadership ability?" The fork in the road was there..........Lead or Follow. The bride-builder built the bridge.......for others to follow. The corps program was for leaders......not followers. Time and time again, during my inresidence "training"..........I would go for quiet walks to get away from THE NOISE. And, in a prayerful way, I would commune with my thoughts and God....pondering the extremes of the "training" AND the lack of other truths that laid silent. Things like......the life and ministry of Jesus, compassion, long-suffering, prayer, adversity, uprightness, individuality, etc.......not just the chest-thumping "we've got the truth" spiel. Of course, NOW.........I realize that my mind was fighting the INDOCTRINATION which, at given points in time, escalated to wierwille-idolatry. I never believed that wierwille was THE man of God on earth........it just didn't fit in my concept of the One Body where Christ was the head. In so many ways, the corps was railroaded on the tracks of wierwille's life to the undisclosed destination of work camps...........NOT ON THE TRACKS OF THE ONE WHO REDEEMED ME. <_<

Without a doubt..........the dots connect back to wierwille. No weasel room on this one. Wierwille OWNS the full burden of the CF&S material, the adultery sidesteps, and the sensual comments on those breasts and genitalia photos. The doggie porn in wierwille's "library" is the exclamation point. By the late 70s, Howard was known for his tongue-in-mouth kisses.....and more than once, he publically stated that he wore those shiny red boots to look up womens' dresses. He also made claims to running down wierwille road with a woman jogger......cause he liked to watch her boobs bounce. Others can say alot more...... Then, of course......the whole issue of wows going to cities and single men & women housed together. Could it be that one of the attractions for some going wow was this arrangement? Even some newbies thought that this housing arrangement implied "free love" with my wow sisters.....and on three or four occasions, I had to show them the door. But now......it's agonizing to see it all laid out [no pun intended] in full view some 33 years later..!! And, to think that there are still wierwille-apologists that think the guy walked by revelation. Looks like wierwille reveled in something within his own grasp. :blink:

WD.......ironic isn't it? Where one values the corps nametag......or the approval of J0hnny T........above ALL those scriptures on sons of God, beloved and righteous in His sight, more than conquerors, sanctified ones, etc. It's sad, really. And, with all sincerity.....I pray that you find your way back to the treasures of His love and holiness. Peace.

To be fair.......twi probably needed to give a few fire alarms to adjust procedures and measure response times in the event of an emergency. What wasn't fair........to castigate THE WHOLE DAM* CORPS in light of a couple sleepy-heads. Yell, yell, yell......bitch, bitch, bitch on it at breakfast AND at lunch. When there are some 480 corps on campus......EVERYDAY THERE WAS SOMETHING TO YELL ABOUT. The constant barrage of confrontations got so old. And, it was like being tag-teamed ALL WEEK LONG.......if it wasn't the corps coordinator, it was the wife.....or the area coordinator........or the work coordinator.......or the branch coordinator...... The corps became an image of what they saw daily...........CONFRONTING EVERYTHING.

The dynamics of the inresidence corps program varied from year to year, campus to campus, social connectivity, bullying branch leaders, age differences, physical limitations, stress levels, boot-camp routines, 18-hour gruelling days, fun runs, bless patrol nights, egg shells in scrambled eggs, wheat berries, brown-sack sundays, lunch announcements, never-ending meetings, sitting cross-legged for hours, daily confrontations, never good enough, jet-style packing class, mal-pack and conspiracy theories, no trust in earthly families, information overload, the best -- and yet, scum, the elite of twi -- and yet, the slave labor for all events, etc. etc. etc. One of the interesting patterns of corps indoctrination.......was to always keep us off-balanced and unstable. In this regard, our dependence was on them. In retrospect, I see the devious workings of stripping the corps of all individuality.....and then, implanting subservient values and purpose to support twi. Unless one experienced the rigorous regimentation and rituals of "righteousness" in the corps program.....it's hard to describe the enormous bombardment of constant information on a daily basis. We had twig meetings, sometimes branch meetings, branch responsibilities each month -- like wierwille library setup crew, dorm room meetings, 4-hour workshift, ready for lunch - hungry after lunch, lunch announcements, class assignments, don't leave campus, etc. etc. Sleeping in a room with some 30 guys was an experience in and of itself...........people moving in and out all hours of the night with bless patrol, prayer vigil, late-nighters..........drop-dead sleep, some sleep - some set alarms for 4am work shift in kitchen - some set alarms for 4:15am to go running - some set alarms for 4:30am to get hot showers - many set alarms for 4:45am to get up - a few set alarms at 5:05am and jumped out of bed and dashed to class (needed to be seated by 5:20am). One could easily say that the "inter-social" dynamics of this close inhabitation could fill a chapter of a book. Of course......the family corps (and children) had another whole set of dynamics as well. And......at times, the block change shipped many to another root locale....like out to camp gunnison, or rome city, or headquarters. Another whole set of variables...... But for some..........the corps experience was like water off a duck's back. Some went into the corps, graduated and left shortly thereafter having few regrets........back to college, back to a career, back to life. Others who invested heavily in time, effort, and loss of opportunity can substantiate the indoctrination and subtle approach. The agendas of control and exploiting the youth were in wierwille's domain. Then, there are those who were deeply and systematically abused..... sexually and/or psychologically. Many have told their stories. Only in writing a book......could I convey the simple-hearted sweetness of many wonderful corps, the 18-hour days of rigorous regimentation, the darkening clouds of despair and dependency, the yearly assignments after corps graduation, the wierwille deception dismantled, and the glorious path of freedom, a newfound freedom.

rascal......I saw some of both, bullies who forged ahead unhindered and, at times, praised for their "bold" stance and others who were reinforcd week after week to be mean-spirited. I am certainly no psychologist, but found it interesting to see other men emboldened by wierwille's narcisstic patterns......especially the 6th and 7th corps men (imo)......and trying to mimic his style. Of course, in any group that numbers into the hundreds and thousands.......there were plenty of mild-mannered corps who never changed much at all. To their credit, these corps remained true to their principles, true to their values. Sure, there was more knowledge, more confidence, more exposure and awareness......but mean-spirited? No. Like so many things in life, the bullying aspect of the corps was just another dimension. The problem arose because they emulated the ways of wierwille......and were promoted for it. Had wierwille been true to christian values and character, he would have wielded the sword of the spirit and put those smart-arses in their place. But no......that didn't happen.