skyrider

Thanks "anonymous"....... All your points are the same that frustrated me back in 1996........I got SO TIRED eating the "re-re-refried beans" and finally couldn't stomach it anymore. Even when martindale told the region guys that they needed to "eyeball us limb coordinators once a month".........those meetings, too, were bland and petty. And, your point #4 was strikingly apparent to me BACK THEN.........and twi was worse than a mediocre religion. I could no longer "believe" that twi would revive and/or thrive. LIFE outside twi's walls of isolation is..............SCINTILLATING. :)

Are you serious? <_<

Yeah.......any 'higher, educated-level people' and/or 'research people' seemed to find the exit doors faster than the average 'committed' follower. Some of those corps "classes" were taught to us by OTHER in-residence peers. The "college division" aspect didn't work, imo...........because it wasn't designed for THAT purpose. The wierwille cornerstone of the corps program was INDOCTRINATIONAL...........not intellectual.

Only a 'Paul Blart' can see THE MISSION for what it really accomplishes.... For waygbers, it is NOT.....Monotonous and mundane monitoring of twi property and ex-twi internet sites. For them, it IS..................MOG-security, marksmanship and manipulative skills at twi's spiritual epicenter.

chockfull.........good points and well said. Rosalie's ascent to "A-1 Administrator" provides a case study of political manuevering in religion. She aptly has followed in the footsteps of her predecessor, don wierwille, when she replaced him as vice president in the late 90s. Ironic, that while vpw was "accredited with a couple of gift ministries" [i.e. apostle, teacher]............other trustees could be cut from the cloth of a businessman, educator or layman. Now, twi seems to equate an "administrator" as a prototype of divine calling ..... a "gift ministry" per se. And, in terms of a "teaching ministry"...........rosie is a behind-the-scenes editor who proofreads submitted scripts for public reading. LOL Whether rosie learned these tactics from don wierwille or cgeer........I don't know. But in my opinion, an administrator will not deceive the masses like wierwille did (for decades). Of course, when it comes to deceiving...........imo, there's a huge difference between staff and followers. The staff are on the payroll and "play the spiritual game" to enhance their position, livelihood and stability. The staff can smile and usher at the sunday meetings and sit in the back. Whereas, the innie followers give of their hard-earned money to support this system........travel to these meetings.......and consume this "stale bread" for spiritual nourishment. <_<

Here are a few examples of 1959 living...... 1959 Mansfield Ohio 4 bedrooms kitchen with built in stove and range large family room and outbuildings on 25 acres $15,500 Cost of Living 1959 How Much things cost in 1959 Yearly Inflation Rate USA 1.01% Yearly Inflation Rate UK 0.9% Average Cost of new house $12,400.00 Average Yearly Wages $5,010.00 Cost of a gallon of Gas 25 cents Average Cost of a new car $2,200.00 Movie Ticket $1.00 Loaf of Bread 20 cents Kodak Movie camera $67.50 Ladies Stockings $1.00 Average House Price 2,410

Like so many other corps who are still "in"...........Michael stepped away from Limb coordinator about 4 years ago and desired to get secular employment. Where have I seen this pattern before??........... trunk coord ---> limb coord ---> branch coord ---> "innie" corps grad with secular employment....??? Oh, yeah........ Another 8th corps grad: T0m L@lly (except T & B split out in the middle of the night with no forward address and are no longer "in").

Paw.......words fall short in conveying how thankful I am for all that you've done, as well as the moderators. This site has been instrumental and life-changing for many thru the years. Thanks. Good to hear your news.

Well.......since twi has morphed into a "corporation of sorts" and no longer relies on a charismatic leader to stoke the fires of outreach, I tend to think that rosie will hang on to the presidency as long as possible. Surely, she saw vic's quick decline from power once he went into 'retirement'......and doubtfully, she wants to follow that path. Heck.....at this stage, twi plods along like 'an old woman with a cane'..........and it wouldn't surprise me in the least, if rosie does the same. In another 12 years or so........she will ONLY be 80......and could still be 'in power.' :blink:

kids ??...........yeah, like their college grad 'kids' really care. Maybe the Moneyhands' kid (corps grad).....if he reads this stuff, but any others, I seriously doubt it. As life marches on quickly.........the spies are nearing 60, or in their 60's. R3ynolds is like 65, and maybe he no longer is assigned to give GS reports.. ?? Heck, even wierwille retired at 65............but then, his "retirement fund" was set for life. <_<

So.......all those 'reports' about reynolds needing to step down from trustee level because of health issues were merely DAMAGE CONTROL at the trustee level...???? Well, John......it looks like 'what you sow, you reap.'

Yeah.........tax write-off and free labor and decades of CHEAP labor. Looking back at all this......it's like, twi's "ministry" and "family farm" simply fronted the laundering of monies and lives as wierwille soaked up the perks of unaccountable living. Wierwille's "family farm" played to his favor THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE........1) talking about the wierwille heritage, 2) the way woods and campfire area, 3) the brc (the spiritual epicenter.....hahaha) and 4) "home-coming" at the roa......all adding to youthful attachment to wierwille's ideals and deception. In so many ways, wierwille masterfully played "our heart-strings and associations" to elevate this "holy ground" as he had. <_<

Your point is well taken..........but the difference in land prices in 1959 as opposed to land prices in 1980 (?) would undoubtedly be a substantial difference. I suppose there is a website somewhere to track ohio land prices....if one were so inclined. Wish I could buy a new car today..........for a 1988 price.

This statement was made by chockfull on the Sueing the Slumdog Millionaires thread. As I recall........vpw and harry bought out reuben's share of the farm inheritance and deeded it over to the way, inc. around 1959 or 1960. Wierwille was removed from his Van Wert, Ohio pastorate in 1957. For the record.......the wierwille family farm was A MEASELY 147 ACRES. Back in 1959, I do not know what the price per acre was.......but let's say at $200 per acre that is only $29,400....(or $14,700 by vpw). The buildings would have added to the property value, but the wierwille house was in bad shape and needed a huge renovation....of which, harry forked over from his furniture business. More than likely, lots of free labor was utilized by wierwille's core of ohio followers. Time and time again, some allude to the fact that vpw "gave his (huge) inheritance over" to start twi.......but when one stops to study the facts, vpw didn't *give* all that much. Noteworthy in this transaction, the non-profit status afforded vpw lots of advantages and write-offs and perks. I seriously doubt whether any of the three boys, vpw, harry or reuben, were cut out to farm their dad's property.....and deeding it over to the way, inc. was AN ADVANTAGEOUS MOVE. To put in perspective the size of this farm........a section of land is one mile by one mile, or 640 acres. A quarter of a section of land is 160 acres......so the wierwille farmstead was NOT EVEN THAT. I grew up in midwest USA and plenty of farmers had two or three sections of land.....say, 1500 acres.....which was 10 times larger than the wierwille farm. Heck, a few farmers had 12 to 15 sections of land..!!! IMO, we were led to believe that "wierwille gave so much to start twi".....and, in our youth.....we never stopped to really analyze the truth of the matter. What wierwille "gave away" on one hand.....he RECEIVED from the other. As twi grew..........the property across wierwille road (the way woods area) was bought. Around 1980, the farmer to the north died and vpw rushed over to purchase the property where founders' hall was built. Also, twi purchased property on the west side of shelby county road (west woods)......and then, property where the auditorium and parking lot were built. Not sure about way farm III (1976 or so?) and mrs. inherited the kipp farm. Plus, the "stork farm" (??) on hwy 29 was acquired around 1983. BUT.............the original 147 acres was what vpw and harry "gave" to the way, inc. Even howard allen and others came up weekend after weekend, to build the brc in 1962. Through the years, corps and volunteers worked FREE......manual labor, roa tent set-up, music talent, serve the burgers, clean the tables and toilets, etc. etc. etc. Then when other campus locations were acquired, corps worked FREE year round to plant trees, construction labor, landscaping, etc. etc. to keep these locations maintained. On the backs of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF WORKERS, twi was built. <_<

Twi Board of Trustees/Directors: ......(Listed as President, Vice President and Secretary/Treasurer, respectively) 1) VP Wierwille, Harry Wierwille, and Ermal Owens (1962? - 1977) 2) VP Wierwille, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen (1977 - 1982) 3) Craig Martindale, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen (1982 - 1986) 4) Craig Martindale, Don Wierwille, Howard Allen, Johnnie Townsend and Ricardo Cabarello (1986-1989) 5) Craig Martindale, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen (1989 - 1996) 6) Craig Martindale, Rosalie Rivenbark and Howard Allen (1996 - 1998) 7) Craig Martindale, Rosalie Rivenbark and John Reynolds (1998 - 2000) 8) Rosalie Rivenbark, Harve Platig, and John Reynolds (2000 - 2002) 9) Rosalie Rivenbark, Harve Platig, and Jean-Yves DeLisle (2002 -2005) 10) Rosalie Rivenbark, John Rupp, Roger Mitler, Vince McFadden and Jean-Yves DeLisle (2005 - 2009) * #4 ........ Johnnie and Ricardo were added by Chris Geer during the "fog" fiasco. ** #10 ..... Rosalie is Chairman of the BOD, ................ John, Roger and Vince are vice presidents ................ Jean-Yves is secretary/treasurer Note: Assignments changed in various months throughout the year.....i.e. Don Wierwille stepped down in Oct. 1996 at the anniversary weekend (IIRC). Others may clarify.........but this is how I remember it. <_<

If wierwille was the equivalent of a "modern-day apostle paul".......then everyone to follow, lcm and joe believer, would be the equivalent of a "timothy." Thus.......all that Paul conveyed and had written in Timothy I & II, would be common ground that every serious twi-follower would have aspired to.

Yes.........the Blog feature, but THAT would probably not get the attention that WhiteDove and Oldies desires. When all is said and done.........it seems like those guys want to stand in the spotlight. They crave the attention, the controversy, the "martyrs" of wierwille, the final-say of authority, the lording over others, etc. etc. etc. <_<

Oakspear..........you pointed out several things that I've been considering about this topic. The term *pro-twi viewpoint* is NOT accurate, imo..........pro-wierwille is the REAL ISSUE that brings out escalated apologeia from these guys. Secondly, any and all things related to pfal bring out the "defenders" en mass [i.e. WhiteDove, Oldies, What The Hey]. And thirdly, the good ole days when wierwille walked among us. But harrassing posters, especially those who come to GS to share personal stories of pain and abuse, and driving them away with verbal onslaughts.......THAT TIME HAS PASSED. Ironic, isn't it?..........defenders who claim to be "pro-wierwille" OR "pro-good ole days of love and acceptance" have a message of contempt, or disdain, for those who carry heavy burdens of the heart? The individual does NOT matter, nothing matters.......but to sanitize wierwille's name and legacy. <_<

IMO......although the pro-twi viewpoints are welcome at GS and give perspective to the truism of ideals that many of us embraced for years, they do not begin to assuage the tsunami of abuse in following false teachers/teachings as life unfolds on one's journey. The mission of GS is fixed on giving everyone a voice......not placating those who incessantly post their platform and beat the twi drum. <_<

Along with your offer for a "pro-TWI" discussion (or experience)..........may I suggest that Mike, or White Dove, or Oldies just simply ATTEND A TWI-SANCTIONED FELLOWSHIP NEAREST THEM..?? Or.........a "twi-light" meeting sponsored by CES/STIF, CFF, GEER, ETC. :)

Yeah.......something like that. Like every thread regarding vpw needs to be cross-examined......and then, documented "evidence" needs to be presented beyond all reasonable doubt, etc. etc. How does a rape victim.......one sexually assaulted in vpw's exclusively private motorcoach......bring forth "undisputable proof" to a rabid vpw-apologist? Even if....A WHOLE BOOK DOCUMENTS THE TWISTED DOCTRINES, THE ISOLATION, THE SEDUCTION, THE AFTER-AFFECTS, THE SHAME, THE REALIZATION OF CORRUPTION, THE EX-COMMUNICATION, THE POSSESSED LABEL, ETC .......... a dyed-in-the-wool staunch vpw-apologist will not believe it. Some seem to find their identity..........in wierwille's "reflected glory."

Oldies........the context is all-important of paw's post. As mstar said, a poster was intentionally derailing thread after thread and calling other posters "liars" over and over again. The posts seemed to escalate to an all-out campaign to disrupt any and all personal testimonies, specifically against vpw and his "God-given" ministry. Like a school yard bully, his verbal assaults were ongoing. Here is paw's post:

Twinky........I agree with your points. We have no way of really knowing whether twi gave us all our corps files back and/or if they stored back-up files on us. Even by 1978, wierwille was getting irritated by those who he labeled "tripped out" or "cop-outs." And, when those three 8th corps had gone public with their "new research".........wierwille was livid for a period of time after that. The trickle of corps leaving twi was becoming a small stream. I still have a 1985 listing of twi clergy that they sent to us...........my oh my, it sure is AMAZING to see all who've left twi thru the years. To me, it's documental evidence that nearly 300 of us arrived at THE SAME CONCLUSION.........twi was corrupt, deceptive and exploiting followers. We were not "salted" to stand with evil. Like you stated..........today, I could care less what they think. Heck, twi had to have legal counsel to bolster evidence to oust their 2nd president, martindale. And, rosa-lie............deposed by lawyers, stating under oath that she knew of martindale's sexual predation as early as 1995. Man, what a sick and evil environment. They can keep all the files they want.......I don't care. Our files are pristine..........COMPARED TO THE TRUSTEES. :blink:

I tend to view this as two categories: 1) Monitoring GS to sift thru details........information/legal issues/damage control and 2) Old stuff of personal information.....most exclusively on corps. Sure, twi has a high interest in monitoring GS on a daily basis. Really, when you think about it.......the legal department deems it as a necessary process in doing their job. Besides, what else do they have to do sitting in their cubicle? And, how many thousands of times can one patrol wierwille road before boredom is encroaching towards a slow death? I would think that monitoring GS gives L!nder (and others) a covert cause of "fighting off bad guys" and get the adrenalin flowing once again. Old stuff????......I seriously doubt that twi keeps much of it. In fact, in the mid-80s twi started handing back "corps files" at each corps' 10-year reunion. I remember getting mine back.......a thick file of notes, personal letters, etc......and throwing the stuff in the trash. On this issue, I commend twi for their good-faith action in returning my files. Of course, I have no idea if twi holds secret files on some corps leadership who fell prey to lusts, sexual predation, drunkenness, debauchery, etc. Perhaps, they do.......and perhaps, it might explain why some corps "cannot" come to GS in that, twi holds leverage over them (bribery). Thankfully, I am not among them. To me, one of the major issues on GS is TO ALWAYS SPEAK THE TRUTH. They have every right to monitor GS and look for any issues that are out-an-out lies..........BUT as long as I share my experiences, my insight, my opinions of their deception and corruption, I stand on solid ground.

Thanks folks.......for the many responses on this thread. Just for clarification, this thread split into two discussions: 1) VPW: "You can't go beyond what you're taught"...........the main focus of this thread. 2) The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" ......... a side-issue that Oldies brought forward with the pfal quote. When he and I discussed this back and forth, I thought that he was sarcastically toying with me.......but he wasn't. Oldies admitted that it was an error in PFAL. And, one of the reasons why I believe that this is such a big deal......is because SO MUCH of wierwille's ministry spawns off his "law of believing" (believing/fear) base. Heck, the corps were strongly confronted time and time again at corps weeks........because our "believing" could not STOP THE RAIN. <_<