skyrider

Like in corporate America or politics, the splinter group top man position comes with lots of perks. Sure, there is the obvious adulation and a cushy desk job.....but the bigger the "sphere of their reach," the more their travel excursions and petty cash accounts get blurred, mixing "business" with pleasure. Maybe, just maybe......there are a few honest leaders out there (cough, cough), but I am rather skeptical since the wierwille legacy left us in a wake of exploitation and destruction. If there is "growing work in California" (and the group is headquartered in Michigan)......well, it sure is nice to go visit the "believers" in California, ESPECIALLY IN FEBRUARY. Or, if there is a "nibble of interest" in South Carolina.....well, maybe they should travel to Myrtle Beach just to check it out?? Heck......wierwille went traveling all over.....deer hunting, elk hunting, motorcycle riding in canada, indianapolis 500 races, etc. on twi's expense. Nice gig with no accountability. And, all these splinter groups (100? or more???).....all these ex-corps leaders are made in the image of wierwille? So.....hypothetically, what if the top guy's salary is $55,000 a year. What else? ...1) All hotel/motel expenses paid ...2) All meals/snacks/drinks expenses paid ...3) All gas and/or mileage reimbursement ...4) Possibly, a "ministry" car to use....(errands/grocery trips/soccer practise of kids) ...5) All phone/utilities/office supplies....."ministry" expense ...6) All meals during a conference weekend ...7) Petty cash for overnight guests.....pizza anyone? ...8) Plants for meeting.....later, go to personal use ...9) Extra food/snack/ from conference luncheon....go to personal refrigerator ...10) Etc. Etc. Etc. No......$55,000 may not seem like much, UNTIL you really look at ALL THE PERKS. Oh, that tax-exempt status is a gift that just keeps on giving!!! Please tell me that this is not happening??????

Remember that lively thread we had a couple years ago about......corps-nazis? Well........the "czar" word is making the rounds these days. And, I came across this: "Others have pointed out that having offices called "czars" is an odd naming choice for a democracy. But czars weren't just authoritarians. They were ultimately authoritarians who left their country far poorer than their more democratic counterparts, lost a world war, and of course paved the way for an even worse system of government. The label "czar" thus doesn't historically connect to a model of strongman effectiveness -- it connects to a model of strongman failure." Maybe....some of you non-corps saw it that way too when corps left your areas far worse when they left for another corps assignment????????

Speaking of inheritance..........there are SEVERAL OTHERS ON TWI'S PAYROLL who have received substantial inheritances. I know, because I spent time with some of these people back in 1980......AND THEY ARE STILL THERE. At least, three or four "power" couples have plenty of $$$$$$. Imagine......having enough money in the bank/investments for the rest of your life. So, really......how hard is it to smile at work, have a cushy job, and know that you're set for life? Others.....who could lose their job tomorrow, have lots more to fear....and thus, submit. After all, their job resume would really suck in the real world.

.....She has visions of bringing all the Corps in who trained under previous leaders to see "the heart of HQ". Wierwille kept bringing corps grads back........it's called INDOCTRINATION. Only the narcissist leader does things right....others just don't measure up, ever!!! Thanks chockfull, for such insightful posts.

That ONE SENTENCE speaks volumes. As I look back......imo, the "twi machinery of sold-out-ism" was fueled and fanned by wierwille. He could have stepped in and stopped the nonsense at any time. Wierwille structured twi's caste system to his advantage......to increase the deception. And, in retrospect......the double-speak deception of wierwille is so obvious NOW. Heck, all we ever knew about wierwille was HIS SIDE OF THE STORY, HIS RE-WRITING OF HIS OWN BIOGRAPHY. Plus, the upper corps coordinator leadership and front-men....were polishing wierwille's image in every imaginable way. Heck, in all my years......I never saw wierwille anywhere near a sign, a miracle or a wonder. There are clear reasons why the scriptures repeat the warnings of following false teachers in a number of ways.......not shepherds but hirelings, seduced, sleight of hand, wolves in sheeps' clothing, clouds without rain, lording over, etc. etc. The rhetoric, the propaganda of twi were the megaphones that attracted many. TODAY........very few ex-corps leaders are willing to come to GS and expose the evil. And, so many of them only moved their hotdog stand over to another corner and changed the business name.....but the hotdog special is still the same. Edit: As per JeffSjo's comment........thanks, oops.

The faithful twig attendees in the 70s, early 80s......the "apple of God's eye" people. I salute them in knowing how many good-hearted souls were the backbone of all that was good in twi. Whereas.....the indoctrination of corps, wierwille's "elite troops", tainted the whole of twi to the point where it became "the image of wierwille." Too centralized, too regulated, too elitist, too confronting, too vain, ..........sheeeesh, too everything. Tzaia, you and many others, made very smart decisions early on......to NOT go corps.

I have long contended that the corps program was twi's exclusive indoctrination program. All classes and meetings were "taught" or run by in-house wayspeak-ers.......and silly me, I sure had NO IDEA what "the way corps culture" would be like when I signed up. I mean, c'mon......I had recently been in college with free-thinking, beer-drinking, party-going, fun-loving young adults were everywhere having a blast. Then....I get to the way college of emporia AND IT'S TABOO TO LEAVE THE CAMPUS WITHOUT PROPER PERMISSION! Are you kidding me???? WTF? Of course, twi didn't forcibly prevent my leaving the campus.....but the confrontations and peer pressure were standing close by if I got caught..!!! Is that censorship? Isn't there a phychological/authoritarian censorship TO REGULATE AND CONTROL ONE FROM 'OUTSIDE' INFLUENCES TO HERD THEM TOWARDS CONFORMITY??? No wonder wierwille had to use unjust influence over the youth......heck, the 40-55 year olds in ohio would have never fallen for this indoctrination/censorship.

Actually.....it's 299 clergy unaccounted for, because from 1985 - 1998 twi ordained 30 NEW GUYS that are included in that 1998 listing. Then.........in looking at my list of those post-1992 ordinations, 6 of those exited or deceased. And, in 1999.....martindale ordained another group of 25 men. Anyhoo.....after that, my sources of information ran dry and I lost all interest. Shortly thereafter, martindale was ousted and MARTINDALE WAS LISTED 'GREASESPOT' CLERGY. :B)

Just remembered...... On file, I have a 1998 Clergy List: Total Active Clergy --- 64 Standing Inactive Clergy --- 19 That's rich......hahahaha.....see how the TERMINOLOGY changed????? "Standing Inactive Clergy"

TWI always keeps lists.......always. On file, I still have my 1985 clergy list: Total Active Clergy --- 345 .... Total Inactive Clergy --- 7 Are you "active" according to twi? Are you "inactive" according to twi? Are you "mark/avoid" according to twi? Are you "on spiritual probation" according to twi? Gee, it must be nice to be the gatekeeper of all the rules. And further, it must feel powerful to be able to squash one's lifetime twi-reputation in one swift edict of the "all powerful and mighty directors." :blink:

After some 35 years of twi involvement and post-examination, I am convinced that twi's lifeblood is the abundant sharing of its "membership." Clearly, pfal classes (or wap-up-side-the-head classes) and bookstore sales and event conferences do NOT begin to cover the payroll or operating expenses. Twi continues to market it product in the framework of "Living the Word's Way"......a mantra that has been repeated for 40 years, at least. Timing is everything, as they say in business....and wierwille had "the product" at the right time to sell when young, rebellious leaders were looking for something outside the pail of the church or the so-called establishment. Many of the once-youth-gone-wild-with-pfal are those who, NOW, sit in those upper-seats at twi's hq. No, I'm really not surprisd by this. The political area has the same landscape. Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money. Twi's lifeblood is the ABS flow.....those who've faithfully given 10% - 15% of their income for decades, and are raising up teenagers to do the same. And even when times are economically tough, twi has a "blood bank of supply" stored from 1978-1985 that grows in interest. Many of us Greasespotters contributed thru the years. Remember that old pfal line?..."The reason the Dead Sea is so dead is because it has all inlets, no outlets." The reason twi is so dead is......All money and support flows into hq and very, very little flows out. With srategic manipulation......there is no coincidence that "abundance, sufficiency, stewardship, etc" finds it way into teachings or themes all the time. These "prosperity ministries" are popping up everywhere!!! I mean, doesn't everyone want money to rain down from heaven above ???? Speaking of blood and all.....it's good that twi has a "doctor" in their house. <_<

When I sat thru wierwille's PFAL class: 1) I was told to write down all my questions and submit them to the class coordinator. 2) Pfal class was subjective by design. No open questioning was allowed. 3) In class, wierwille admonishes to "put away all 'outside' material for the next three months." 4) If class guy couldn't properly answer your questions.....then send them to dr. wierwille. 5) After class was over, twi leadership strongly encouraged me to sit thru it again....and again. Seems like indoctrination and censorship go hand-in-hand.

mark.....although I see your point where politics employs religion to get things done and religion employs politics to get things done, but what I'm trying to address: ISN'T RELIGION AND POLITICS BEDFELLOWS IN THEIR ATTEMPTS TO CENSOR OPPOSING VOICES? In my above post, Jesus had to stand against BOTH.....to not be swayed, to do the Father's will. Twi used censorship to manipulate me. Political adversaries use censorship and spin tactics to manipulate me. So, there is this constant religious and political war being waged for the mind of man. True Christianity has NO RELIGION in it. True Christianity has NO POLITICS in it. True Christianity is an intimate fellowship with my heavenly Father via Jesus Christ. Or......?????

In my opening post on this thread, the two major categories, Religion and Politics, have strong tendencies towards censorship FOR ALL THE OBVIOUS REASONS. What I continue to find very intriguing......imo, most people tend to view these two categories as exclusive subjects, the separation of 'church and state', and yet.....they employ the same strategies, the same censorship, the same pyramid power structures, the same party-line politics and propaganda, etc. YET, THE SCRIPTURES NOTE THIS: Mark 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in [his] words. Weren't 'the herodians' a part of the government/political structure? Both sides, the religious hierarchy and political hierarchy were trying to 'catch Jesus in his words.' And, how often in the scriptures do we see Jesus' words and statements taken out of context or slanted and skewed to imply something else.....even in those attempts to convict and have him crucified. Isn't the bigger picture of censorship, power to lord over people? And, isn't censorship or 'spinning the opposing view'....only one tool in the oppressors' toolchest?

krys.....twi's "kinder,gentler" transition is nothing more than snooze control. ~~~ Sure, no more mark/avoid.....but what if I have pointed questions about the '98 adv cl cover-up?? ~~~ Sure, some are staying in twi's "social club of elitism".....and heads remain willfully in the sand. ~~~ Sure, twi is trying to distance themselves from their dark and sordid past.......nothing new there. BUT SOME LONG-STANDING FOLLOWERS ARE STILL LEAVING......in April, two of our friends who had been with twi since 1972 finally exited.

But please remember twi's household cliche? The Word is the Ministry and The Ministry is the Word

You are so right.........except, with corps, we NOT ONLY had to believe for the rain to stop during roa, but we had the prior week before roa, corps week, to stop those rain clouds from forming too. Perhaps, by roa..........our "believing" was pretty much drained out.

So many blame games....but for me, the one that always pi$$ed me off was that us corps DIDN'T STOP THE RAIN at corps week and/or rock of ages. Almost every year from 1981-1985, this confrontation was leveled at us. Of course, the "law of believing" was king.....and since the trustees didn't want rain at this time, it was OUR believing that was at fault. Oh, and another thing, when Howard Allen said that wierwille actually lived 136 years old (68 X 2) because he lived double of what most men in life do.....I could see that HA was trying to cover for vp's 'sudden' death WITHOUT MENTIONING CANCER. Yeah....H.E. Wierwille died at 70 ........Ermal Owens died at 69 ........VPW died at 68 And, 3 of my grandparents died in their 90s, and my maternal grandpa died at 86. Kinda makes one wonder about their so-called "law of believing."

Yeah......take back your freedom. It's kinda like, everytime that I post my viewpoints and experiences in twi.....I take back my individuality, my unique vantage point that no one else had/has. By speaking the truth in love........I become free. By speaking of unique experiences....I become me. :)

Yeah........THREE QUESTIONS, asked each week that twi wanted to know. 1) How many corps are present? ....Obviously, twi knew how many corps were in each area, each state. This question MONITORED the corps attendance roll.....like an electronic ankle device. If that corps person was in the corps meeting weekly, THEN HE WAS WEEKLY BEING INDOCTRINATED TO TWI PROPAGANDA. 2) Only corps are present? ....Clearly, these phone hook-ups for corps grads or interim corps, but it also fed the elitism and inner-circle mentality that existed. No infiltration into the inner-sanctum was allowed.....and corps policed themselves. Thus, the "eyes and ears" of trustees was "keeping zion safe" from infiltration, from any and all attacks. It has a way of deepening loyalties and advancing radical extremes. 3) And, you're not recording -- correct? ....J0e C0ulter was the main a/v guy. J0e is the one who got Craig M. into "the word." Twi had every intention of guarding itself against martindale's tirades and character assassinations. At times, those corps meetings were spent on trashing some person who spoke out against twi policy, dissenting from the lockstep mentality. Questions on life, careers, rearing children, retirement concerns.....would be addressed, out of context, to trash ONE individual. In retrospect, it was major suppression. So, yeah.....after, at least, 12 years of suppression of thought, questioning and censorship ---- I SMELL CENSORSHIP A MILE AWAY. AND NOW I SMELL IT......COMING FROM OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. Nothing new, I know.....BUT THE ODOR IS INCREASING. :blink:

So many things......... When I was younger....I was intimidated to ask questions, nor did I really know what to ask or question. I grew up trusting people -- taking them at face-value and trusting their words. I had never run across a snake-oil salesman. Therefore, in going way corps......I was young and naive, like so many others. The corps program was bait-n-switch and in the 1970s it was hard to detect. Besides, one gets intermeshed with some fun times, "friends" and this mystique about spirituality and the "man of god." Sure, wierwille encountered his dissenters......several of the 4th, 5th and 6th corps were falling away, but that was near 1979, 1980 and wierwille was retiring in 1982. So, the time frame of this dissention doesn't spotlight wierwille.........it spotlights martindale. In general terms, when corps in their mid-30s (with wife, kids) STARTED QUESTIONING WIERWILLE/TWI......by then, wierwille was stepping down. Therefore, most attribute the problems to martindale.........BUT DISSENT WAS ALREADY MOVING IN THE LATTER DAYS OF WIERWILLE. Some even "thank cgeer for exposing it".....but I say, it was already in progress. Cgeer's paper and pontificating only validated it from main stage. When one is faced with life, reality, bills, children, career, etc........IT BECAME APPARENT THAT TWI'S DEMANDS FOR LOCKSTEP LOYALTY WERE ASSININE. But, some of us were so embedded in responsibilities and "fighting to keep the integrity of the word"....what ever that means.....to step back and ask the hard questions and re-evaluate all things twi from the ground up. To this day, some are STILL WAYBRAINED.....and don't know it. Thanks to the internet, we can actually have this conversation. Thanks to free speech....we don't have someone legislating our dissenting statements toward twi. Coming out of the "censored camps of twi.....I shall always remember the suppression of thought and speech. Freedom of speech.......I shall treasure it all the days of my life.

chockfull.......exactly!!! These weekly phone hook-ups for all corps.....J0e C0ulter asked the SAME questions. Clearly, twi was paranoid and was "covering its bases" IN CASE SOMEONE TAPED CRAIG MARTINDALE AND TOOK HIM/TWI TO COURT. The corps never knew when the next tirade or individual confrontation from martindale would surface. More and more, the legalism and lockstep mentality was incorporated into this fear environment. Corps started ratting out corps. It was like...you couldn't trust your "corps brother" because he might tell martindale if you were murmurring or dissenting in a conversation. Soon, no way could you get any momentum to ask a volley of questions. Is that censorship or "smart business?" Whatever.........it was definitely another red flag amongst many. Twi would only allow THEIR SIDE to be heard. So yeah.......I'VE SEEN FIRSTHAND HOW CENSORSHIP IS MARSHALLED. And, as we speak.......there is a growing concern that our country's media....ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times.....are only reporting ONE SIDE of the story, the accepted-sanitized version. Free Speech..........is the cornerstone of FREEDOM.

HCW.....lots of good points, thanks. I, too, saw much of what you noted in the above post.....but really, I think to understand wierwille one has to go back to his childhood, school years, early influences and other mens' ministries, of which, wierwille envied and crafted and copied. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a twi-sanitized version of vpw.....but if one read's between the lines, it's quite easy to see that vpw was a dull 'reflected glory' when contrasted with some of the contempory men that are spotlighted. IMO.....what shaped wierwille happened long ago. Why did wierwille want to be 'the best?' Where did his narcissist drive come from? Was Ernst Wierwille, vpw's dad, an alcoholic and abuser as some have claimed? And, after vpw had "received the best education that money could buy"......was he guilt-ridden to REPAY his father with kind tributes and driven to show the family that he was worthy of this educational expense? Most of us ex-twiers only encountered wierwille by 1975 or so........BUT BY THEN, HE WAS NEARLY 60 YEARS OLD. I, for one, believe that most people's social/religious/phychological viewpoints and purpose-driven prejudices are shaped and fortified in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. In Mrs. Wierwille's book....the opening paragraph, "The Wierwille family ancestry can be traced as far back as the 1300's to a small town in northern France called Vierville-sur-Mer, translated "Wierwille by the Sea." These Viervilles were Huguenots, a group of French Protestants who staunchly resisted Roman Catholic attempts to dominate the religious and social life of France. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, many Huguenots left France to escape religious persecution, the Viervilles among them." Was this heritage something that his parents lauded to the young wierwille? Did it shape his young mind? And....how often did we hear the pontificating of the wierwille heritage? All the corps meetings....all those campfire settings.....the wierwille barn and homestead, his childhood, his rebellion, his schooling, etc. etc? Then comes the 'spiritual men'......E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Moseley, Glenn Clark, BG Leonard, EW Kenyon, Starr Daily, Bishop KC Pillai, George M. Lamsa. And, those are just the main guys that wierwille measured himself against. But, we also know that wierwille was lazy. As a child, he neglected chores....he hid in the woods to avoid working. In academics, he cut corners. He plagairezed other mens' work. While he "might have wanted something"......he was a fraud. He was chameleon-like. It seems to me......that wierwille was always trying to measure up to what he wanted "the man in the mirror" to be. He wanted to live like these spiritual men.....he wanted to be included in this "men's club of spiritual elite....he wanted to think that he was God's best. So, he spent a lifetime in trying to prove it.....but failed. In the end, he "wished he were the man he knew to be." Does that mean, he "wished" that he could measure up to those other men? Does that mean he "wished" he would be more Christ like? No matter......in the end, I believe that wierwille could not forsake sin. And, all the parlor games of "you are righteous now"....never could replace the conviction of what the scriptures truly stated. So much could be said........but, in the end, wierwille came face-to-face with his own "law of believing" when he had his eye removed and cancer. And therein, he was facing his structure of beliefs and his own sin nature. The reflected image in wierwille's mirror was the image that he'd been running from his whole life. He had become what he despised, and yet embraced. Wierwille made his choices in life, like we all do......one by one. He chose to plagairize his contemporaries. He chose to leave his Van Wert pastorate and strike out on his own......his narcissism couldn't be boxed in by a church structure. He chose to go to India and write his little booklet to strike against the missionary set-up. He chose to steal Rev. BG Leonard's class in 1953 and never give any credit in his later pfal classes. Etc. Etc. Sometimes, I think......the man was chasing ghosts his whole life.

When I think of censorship, two things come to mind: 1) The weekly corps meetings that I participated in from 1991-1998 were corps exclusive meetings....and I understand why they set it up that way. But what I found to be troubling......EVERY WEEK when J0e C0ulter called he had these questions: .....J0e: Hello skyrider :blink:. How many corps are present? .....Me: 4 .....J0e: And, you are not recording is that correct? .....Me: That is correct. .....J0e: OK....I'll connect you now. .....Me: Thank you. EVERY WEEK........WEEK AFTER WEEK, THIS QUESTION WAS ASKED. :blink: 2) In thinking about censorship of speech.....twi did it repeatedly. Twi was oppressive. Twi was elitist. Remember........in the document section, martindale is on record for those homosexual statements like ...."You should be thankful you're not in the Old Testament times, because there are some of us who would gladly execute you." - L. Craig Martindale

newlife.....I think that your recollection of geer's statements are correct. HOWEVER.....I for one, did not believe his spin for one new york minute. All the pompous substance of pop led back to geer.....all he did, how much he tried, the unending labor he gave, etc. etc. And, time after time, he was so vague in "how to get back to 'the word'".......what a sleight of hand powergrab!!! Everything benefited Cgeer. Soon region guys were flying over to see him and get the "secret keys" to stay in fellowship to God, etc. Sheeeeesh......people are SO GULLIBLE. In terms of the infamous church lady........."HOW CONVENIENT." :blink: