skyrider

I seriously doubt this...... If two or three witnesses come forward to verify this, then perhaps I will consider....but refuse to accept your allegation after all that you've posted.

T-Bone......I see your point on the hidden agenda aspect. Maybe I should have titled this thread, Plagairist, Pontificator, and Phony Preacher..... because there seems little evidence of any proactive deliberate decisions. As I've noted many times, Mrs. Wierwille's book details a vast number of men and ministries from which vpw garnered [plagairized] material. * Wierwille listened to Rev. Fuller's radio broadcast every Sunday and, later, adapted the same radio venue with youth singing. * Wierwille, as a church pastor, didn't even believe that the Bible was the Word of God. * Wierwille had NO concept or vision of "his ministry" until he tapped BG Leonard's foundational class. Shortly thereafter, vpw modeled his work after a class-based system. * Wierwille proclaimed God gave him a "black snowstorm" sign to go forth and teach His word.... a personal testimony that even vpw gave contradictory details. * Wierwille's pfal-pontificating of his India itinerary was a tall tale.....even Dr. Williams, vpw's host, dropped his association with wierwille shortly after the trip. * Wierwille stayed on the Van Wert Church payroll until 1957......yet, twi claims 1942 as the anniversary date. The lies in re-writing twi history continue to this day. Is there any wonder why Mrs. Wierwille never finished Volume 2 of vpw's life? The early years can be whitewashed from further scrutiny and boast of wierwille's "greatness".....but from 1962-1985, that would not happen. Too many eyewitnesses of what really was going on. Even today, there are books that debunk the wierwille mystique and expose the myth, the mog, and the man. .

Gee, here I thought that the one who wrote the book on hidden agenda was.......the devil.

Around 2004....GS reporting by posters confirmed that Camp Gunnison would no longer be used as a corps training location, but would shift to family camps for their followers. Unless twi's followers have become cash-throwing consumers in the past decade......it seems to me, camp gunnison is a mismatch of ideals and realism. On one hand, twi promotes it as a destination for a "family camp vacation".....on the other hand, few twi families have the finances or desire to travel there for "vacation." How many twi-ers are avid white-water rafters? How many twi-ers enjoy fly-fishing and frying on an open fire? How many twi-ers might want to skip over to Vail for some skiing? How many twi-ers might just want a quiet place away from twi? What kind of staff and expenses does Camp Gunnison need to function? Year round staff and maintenance can't be cheap. Even if companies and conferences are brought in to help offset the expenditures....what about parties? alcohol? wild nights? trashing the place? Yeah, I know......twi is sitting on a gold mine investment property. It's worth millions. On so many levels, it seems like a mismatch of twi's mission to "move their prevailing word" and hold onto this property. Yet, with some $52 million in investments/stocks.... why sell now? Maybe the bigger question......why did twi buy it in the first place? .

Did wierwille have a deliberate vision and plan for twi? First of all, I understand that all churches and businesses go thru growing pains with stops-n-starts.....but then, supposedly, twi wasn't just any ole run-of-the-mill operation. Pick a category, any category: 1) Way Tree structure and Classes, 2) Qualifications for Spiritual Oversight, 3) HQ Offices, Buildings and Campus Locations, 4) Corps Program, 5) Vision for the Future, 6) Others.... Many of these topics have been discussed ad infinitum......but the one that always amuses me is twi's buildings and campus locations. When the EOB was built, it was supposed to be a dormitory for summer school students and events. Even before completion, the dormitory was co-opted as an "Executive Office Building"....and later named, the Ermal Owens Building. Wasn't the metal structure on shelby road placed there in 1977 for roa storage? When neighboring county fairgrounds were upping their fees and demands for twi's annual roa, twi decided to stop this arrangement and bring the event to twi-grounds. This corrogated metal building was needed for roa storage and maintenance of equipment. The building was divided in half with a cement-block wall for structural purposes.....and later, in 1979, the push was on to build office space in the Outreach Services Center. How about....the Fine Arts and Historical Center in Sidney, Ohio? It was a "big deal" for several years and then, poof? Scrap that idea. Corps campuses.....Emporia campus, Rome City campus, Camp Gunnison, LEAD in Tinnie, NM and the HQ campus. Emporia community never welcomed twi. All that corps labor....all those years, and then its sold for a loss. Rome City campus.....same deal. Camp Gunnison was to be the crown jewel....with wierwille's vision of family camps, horse stables, fishing trips, nightowls, restaurant, retirement homes, etc. How did that work out? And, then LEAD and that whole fiasco.... Founders' Hall was included when twi purchased the adjacent land from a dying farmer. Seems like its more along the lines of a patchwork plan than any thing else. Corps Chalet.....a blunder, for sure. Even wierwille didn't like staying there when he and mrs. moved in there in 1982. And, that whole concept where the corps would be welcomed to stay and "hang with the man of god".....not so much. Never happened. Wierwille reneged on the whole concept and gave it to martindale. World Over the World Auditorium......although wierwille was pretty much out of the picture by 1983/84, he and geer did discuss much of its development. In the end......the auditorium has many flaws. Too few bathrooms. Cold, sterile lobby. Coffee/snack areas for serving are too small. So....just in this category, its clear that patchwork and blunders were far more common than not.

When one studies the social/economic/status networks and power-drivers in culture.....the components of 1) Class Power, and 2) Social Power, and 3) Political Power are unmistakable. Worldwide, the upper tier of clergy/spiritual leadership supersedes nearly every classification except the ruling class, the monarchy. In wierwille's german heritage......clergymen were supreme authoritarians in society. Where else could a narcissist achieve more status......and power? .

And...the twelve benefits of covering veepee's a$$

Yes......an elaborate, seductive scheme 1) Isolated in a secluded corps program 2) Isolated in a cult-like community on staff 3) Surrounded by an inner circle of yes-men 4) Surrounded by personal bodyguard and security men 5) Built a system where mog is beyond reproach 6) Built a system with no checks and balances 7) Sanctioned that every woman belongs to king 8) Sanctioned sexual favors to mogs was spiritual maturity 9) Preyed on women with sexual abuse backgrounds 10) Preyed on women with alcohol and drug stimulants 11) Elaborate system of adulation and dominance 12) Elaborate system of dependency and major uphill battle for rape case .

johniam......were you ever around wierwille day after day? johniam......were you ever in the corps? on staff? Have you read Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, to see all the men who taught vpw along his journey questing for truth? The book details Rev. BG Leonard's foundational class.....and after vpw sat thru it twice, he rushed home and taught the same material as his own. Grads of Leonards' class didn't have to register and pay for "wierwille's class".....they were ALREADY GRADS. Your posts remind me of a couple other posters who would defend wierwille......yet, never had gone WOW, never been on staff, nor in the corps. The whole substance of their defending vpw was his pfal class and plagairized material.

Besides the five gift ministries (Eph 4:11)......the scriptures make reference to helps, governments, and workers of miracles in the context of the church (I Cor 12:28,29). To me, there is far more depth to this context than wierwille or twi ventured to go. For example, prophets......do they speak and forwarn cultures and societies of calamities, famines, governmental breakdowns, corruption, enemy uprisings, etc to protect us? Clearly, God protected civilizations and cultures from impending doom to preserve the Christ line. Don't the scriptures teach that even the unjust are greatly benefited by God's benevolence and His prophets? Or say, pastors?........are they just confined to church or religious settings? Can pastors be found ministering in prisons? rehabilitation centers? hospitals? funeral homes? war zones? missionary work? family intervention? college campuses? retirement homes? How wide of swath does this ministry cover? How big is the God of All Comfort? Same with teachers......all walks of life, secular and spiritual. Why does everything have to be black/white theology with twi? Didn't Jesus teach about LIFE AND GODLINESS..... fishing, crops, harvest, money, business, talents, building, traditions, government, etc????? EVERYTHING wierwille and twi taught is suspect. EVERYTHING needs to be researched and reconsidered. EVERYTHING.

excie.....no, I didn't list that one. It completely slipped my mind. Ironic, isn't it?.......an "unbelieving believer" sounds like a soft euphemism for some born again believer who doesn't perform at will......yet, when wierwille fumed his disdain for a "cop-out corps" person it dripped of one being devil possessed. Wierwille must have plagairized these communication skills of control.

When the pfal series is supremely the way, the truth, the life.......you've arrived When reading the Way Magazine and Bible are one and the same.........you've arrived. When jumping at the command of the mog and not asking why............you've arrived. When any and all research not sanctioned by twi is anathema..........you've arrived. When you life, your livelihood, your all is cemented with twi........you've arrived.

Spiritual Growth - in Twi * Taking all their classes....repeting this process several times * Going WOW Ambassador........some went WOW 4 times (twi applauded) * University of Life or Corps......keep "growing in the Word" * Different colored nametags -- different spiritual levels * Attending every WIB Conference.....spiritual growth for businessmen * Attending every Corps Week/ROA.....spiritual growth for corps * Serving at twi's corporate hub.....spiritual growth personified In a corporate model, limb coordinators were managers, region coordinators were district managers, and corps coordinators were assigned to train a sales force. All major policy and directions came from hq.....states and regions were merely satellite offices. All policies and directives came from hq. All legal and financial support came from hq. If I were to diagram twi's hierarchy and command elements, it would look something like this: Twi Spiritual Hierarchy and Classifications 1) President, Founder of TWI -- Victor Paul Wierwille 2) Presiding president -- Rosalie Fox Rivenbark 3) Vice Presidents [3]... (some change every few years) 4) Presidents' Cabinet....and Area Coordinators over twi departments 5) Region and Corps Coordinators.....invited to Leaders Mtgs 6) Limb coordinators.....wide range depending on workload 7) Department coordinator.....bookstore dpmt commanded major influence 8) Branch Coordinators.....few corps have less responsibility 9) Corps....must be corps to serve in way productions 10) Staff....the best of the best of advanced class grads 11) Advanced Class Grads.....finished curriculum, now climb (haha) 12) Intermediate Class Grad...instructed in 3 manifestations 13) PFAL Grad....A True Believer, one who can move mountains 14) A Twig Attendee....waiting for the pfal class to start 15) A Twig Attendee....still considering taking pfal 16) A Twig Attendee....rarely comes to twig 17) Non-believer......hasn't yet heard or heard enough to believe 18) Church Goer.......one who yields to trinity doctrine and all 19) Church Leadership.....leading others down the path of destruction 20) Born of Wrong Seed....given fully to devil spirit realm I know, I know.....there are many other levels in twi's hierarchy, but this is a simplification of twi's structure. If one choses to climb their corporate ladder, these are the levels......and then, much is based on seniority and "who you know" to keep climbing. Good luck. .

Yeah.....now I clearly see why wierwille had to incorporate more heavy-handed controls around 1979, 1980. In April of 1980, twi moved its operation from the brc to the osc building.....and a corporate mentality evolved. Corps and staff meetings became more policy and regulations. All slackers or dissenters were put on public display during lunchroom rants or corps meetings. Many of twi's old-timer staffers saw the writing on the wall and headed for the exit doors. Sad, really. "Tapped to the root"......twi's little marketing campaign. But really, twi wanted to stay "tapped to our wallets and cheap labor" to build their empire. IMO.....wierwille knew exactly what he was doing and had no remorse. He used people. He abused people. He built his empire for the greater New Knoxville community and others to see. And yet, even before his death......the wierwille mystique was becoming unmasked and his followers were dispersing. .

Broken Arrow......I concede, you are right. More specifically, I should point out that the corps program was touted as a work/study program.......interesting, that "work" is mentioned first. In mentioning "milk" the study/class side of things was pfal-rehash, dale carnegie techniques, and wholesale wierwille indoctrination. Lots of side teachings like knowles breathing, flossing, eating ediquette, safety and survival, etc.....parent or nanny instruction? And, with the "work" aspect......it was pathetic. Having been raised in rural USA, I started driving a tractor at 11-years old, and a combine during wheat harvest at 12-years old. So, I clearly understand that my perspective on this.....is not the norm. But really.....pulling weeds for 3 hours? sweeping stairs and hallways? food preparation, clean-up and storage? clearing deadwood in the way woods.....and CLAIMING HOW MIGHTILY GOD WAS TEACHING YOU IN THIS WORK? To me, it all suggests how twi fostered an authoritarian environment and corps bought into the submission of sold goods. Ironically, whenever twi wanted to publically tout its greatness......doctors, professional businessmen, private-tutored rich kids, older retirees with wealth, etc. were spotlighted by wierwille and company. Follow the money trail and the party behind closed doors.

Twi presents a way of life in which change does not even exist. Since 1971, 40 year ago.......what has really changed in twi? The pfal class series was the recruiting message for all who joined the movement. The spiritual elite reside in Ohio and all other characters move on and off stage as patterned from decades ago. The corps program, although touted as spiritual meat towards maturity, spends a majority of its time, effort and resources in serving milk in perpetuity. Why?..........power, stability, and order. After the adv class, did twi think your learning and curriculum were complete?......NO After WOW Ambassador, did twi encourage you to go tackle the world as you saw fit?.....NO After Fellow Laborers, did twi send you on your way fully-prepared to live for Him?....NO After the corps program, did twi applaud your achievements and spiritual maturity?.....NO After serving decades in twi, did the "lording over God's heritage" ever change?.......NO Twi was an illusion of spiritual growth. No matter how the dynamics changed in your life, twi leadership never conceded autonomy. You have no right to stand on your own. You belong to them......your life, your commitment, your all.....or else! What do you do......when you come face-to-face with this illusion? 1) Stay and focus on that which you agree on? 2) Stay and work towards implementing change? 3) Confront these issues head-on and see what happens? 4) Document and present your position to twi hierarchy? 5) Admit to yourself this illusion.......pack and leave? 6) Other? Despite a plethora of twi-deception, manipulation and skewd doctrine......twi wasn't the first, nor will it be the last, to implement such an illusion. I firmly believe that the Lord guides those who heed Psa 119:133 The scriptures document many examples of men and women who were surrounded by evil kings, dire circumstances, futile scenarios.... and the Lord was faithful to deliver.Twi....was a broken cistern that held no water. The Lord is a fountain... .

Those of us who are born again have both fruit of the spirit AND works of the flesh. We will get no rewards (inheritance) for works of the flesh (vain repetitions, church attendance, abstination from vice, community service, and all the things that some religious people do to show themselves godly), but for listening to God's still small voice and ministering grace to the hearers and being the kind of Christian that others want to be like and be around, that's part of the fruit of the spirit. We've all been that person. johniam.......two things. 1) works of the flesh......adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like Interesting, how you go attempt to deflect to church attendance and community service as you show a disdain for "religious people." 2) BUT.......the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace,... Remember in that vaunted pfal class where wierwille highlights the word "but".... remember? "But" sets in contrast that which precedes with that which follows....it doesn't co-exist with it. Johniam, it is surprising how you seem to esteem pfal, yet cannot follow what was taught. You can't have it both ways: esteem wierwille and disregard his teachings.

How many different ways are there to discuss wierwille's ministry? Wierwille defenders seem to resist the mountain of evidence......scripturally, experientially, spiritually, psychologically, and emotionally......that wierwille & co. were users and abusers. How many different ways from Sunday does one need to explain it? PFAL......was it THE word of God? SIT.......was it the ALL in ALL TRUTH that twi was/is of God? On these two "bedrocks"......pfal & sit.....the most adamant defenders stake their ground and commitment to twi. Yet, wierwille stole a huge majority of "his" pfal class from BG Leonard, Bullinger and Stiles. Even the pfal characters.....maggie muggies, henry baloko, and snowball pete......are from BG Leonard's class. And, then......from wierwille's testimony, he told us he FAKED speaking in tongues to a group of men by speaking German (before receiving "the real thing"). Add to this......wierwille, himself, seemed to repetitiously speak the same 'lo-shanta-mala-ka-cee-to-lo-shanti' (tongues) over and over through the years. Huh? Where was the versatility? The distinction in language? Were we to believe that the SAME repetition computed to DIFFERENT interpretations??? If you STILL cannot discern......look at the fruit, "YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT." Could it be any clearer? Then, in Galatians.....there is a list of these fruit of the spirit. Compare. Inspect. What do you see? I see......Wierwille's Faux Christianity. In my opinion, it was false, fake and manufactured to his self-gain and interests. Even when he "preached the eat-meat doctrine".....(*roll eyes*).....milk was all that was set forth. Wierwille wanted class instructors, not leaders. Wierwille was at the center of his pfal stories.......wierwille was at the center of his "law of believing" theology.......wierwille was at the center of his ministry.....and, wierwille was the focus at his death, saying "I wish I were the man I know to be." True Christianity cannot be found in twi's household. .

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ... Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right? Argue all you want, but..........by their fruits YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

wayspeak lives on....

uuugh.... Bait......corps assignments are of God Switch....some corps wives were assigned to hq for mog's pleasure

Hmmmm......did vp's strategy work? If wierwille's objective was to set up an organization that had a top-down command center, a deceptive agenda, an exploitive culture, a legalist arm, a bogus "research" approach, an anti-family undertone and an idolatrous element.......then he succeeded. Yet, from a personal observation......seeing people tossed to and fro in a turbulent environment, here are a few things I saw. 1974-1978 .....twi was a revolving door, people always leaving. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of witnessing......few results. Classes and classes....yet, some 80% of people never stayed involved with twi. A numbers game? Sales? 1978 - 4th corps, Clergy/Limb coordinator of my state exits twi 1979 - Confrontational Corps Week, discontinued the Q&A segment, Wierwille upset 1980 - Word in Culture movement in twi was SUPPRESSED, more corps moving to college ed 1981 - VP chooses lcm as pres-elect, dissent growing in leadership levels 1982 - Living Victoriously was mostly a victory lap for wierwille, NOT twi 1983 - Division and strife building underneath twi surface 1984 - Twi terminology changing rapidly.....athletes, javelins, discus, oh my! 1985 - Wierwille dies of cancer....cause of death cover-up. Lies and reshuffling of deck. 1986 - Power Grabs begin.....geer was only the most notable In the end.....what was/is the legacy of wierwille? A preacher? teacher? unifier? healer? comforter? apostle? prophet? OR A predator? deceiver? plagairist? narcissist? psychopath? In one decade, wierwille's "work" implodes! Corps leadership has split in hundreds of directions, hundreds of diverging doctrines. Of course, there is the window dressing of "foundational truths"....but then, its every man hath a doctrine, a shtick. And today's twi READS the sunday sermons to the drones believers of twi's household. A striking contrast to the days when spontaneity and in-spirit-action thrived in its early movement.....and, when we laughed at the devil reading the church preacher's sermon that he stuck in the drawer the night before. .

waysider.....I've pondered that question many times. Could it be that someone striving for self-importance or 'above the rest'.....clings to the past attachment of experiencing a unique point in time, a person, or a movement that defines them? The world is filled with people who are obsessed with mysteries, ufo's, cults, occults, dictators, celebrities, rappers........you name it, its there. Besides, when wierwille walked the earth.......I WAS THERE.

Wasn't there supposed to be a 'klutz spirit' hiding in there, as well?

Oh, yes.......the ole 'Date & Switch' :) Bait......Move from city to city, year after year, to comply with corps assignments Switch....Denigrated for lack of prosperity, lack of believing, lack of results