skyrider

Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS. Wierwille taught his more abundant life series and absent-Christ doctrine.

One of the things I've wondered about..... ...if the "law of believing" were true and wierwille packaged his product with God's stamp of approval....WHY didn't he just lay claim to this "law" rather than lose his eye? ...WHY didn't it work for him when those pesky cancer spirits came 'round? ...Why he wasn't able to side-step death at the age of 68?

My point was NOT to compare offshoots with offshoots......or "church cloning" with "worldly cloning".... If cffm walks down the same worn path as twi...classes, youth advances and a reverence for Dr. Wierwille.....what will be the result? Do their classes herd the people towards conformity OR a unique relationship with the lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty? Is Christ truly preached as the mediator between God and man....or is lip-service merely given? I have no doubts that cffm leadership is sincere and comforting those who were broken and abandoned by twi. Hopefully, they've risen above putting wierwille and his "foundational principles" as the arbitrator of truth. I continue to be amazed how many "leaders" came forward from a broken system.

Nice post, chockfull.......... IMO....one of the main problems with CFFM is what I refer to as "colonial christianity" where money is funneled to Tipp City from "outlying colonies." Just like twi, as more $$$ is mailed to CFFM.......more leaders, more bureaucracy, more events are planned.....and the "headquarters" becomes the hub of spirituality. The activity becomes the organization and the newsletters toot their own horn. The tail starts WAGGING the dog. Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress. What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm? If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again. .

Yep.......they SANITIZE wieriwille and GRAFT the self-same doctrine. When I attended a few fellowships years ago, it had the same smell of twi.....putrid. I was left with the impression that cffm leadership took their marbles across the street and started another church.

Seems like we might be talking past one another on this thread...... When wierwille made that statement.....the "we" was in context of living the twi-lifestyle, go to twig, sing the songs, abs faithfully, and attend their classes. Sounds good, doesn't it? Distancing ourselves from family and loved ones....distancing ourselves from society and community involvement......distancing ourselves from the world. Of course, wierwille would think THAT is good. He traveled around on a private motorcoach. He attended the Indianapolis 500 races and parked his coach with the corporate types. He went to the Grand Ole Opry with his way productions. He was twi's pope.....and reveled in the adulation. While.........fawning followers drove broken and rustbucket cars to the Rock. Sleeping in crappy, rain-soaked tents.....cold showers.....and still, smiling. Naivity and youth is a beautiful thing. IMO....Pascal's wager is something totally different than the cultworld of twi. ~~~~~~~~ "Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose...."

Yeah.....go listen to them old tunes and reminisce of days gone by. Project things better than they were......focus on your favorites......and block out all else. But when the event is over..... ......walk thru the MUD ....reality with a THUD

Giving equals receiving is a misnomer. Twi wrongly taught this thru the years. Heck, even Rev. L0nnel Johns0n handled this in a way magazine article in the late '70s to clarify twi's errors. At times, wierwille and martindale stated this equality. Through the years, I heard those teachings...."as you give, you receive therefore giving equals receiving." Martindale taught this several times until, I believe, someone corrected him. When a wheat farmer plants ONE seed.....he gets back 50-60 kernels of wheat. The head of that wheat stalk has 50-60 kernels of wheat (on a good year when conditions are right). If giving equals receiving.........then the farmer would get BACK one seed. Same truth for corn. Same truth for all the plant kingdom. Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. ......measured back out and running over Phl 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. ......giving AND receiving.....NOT giving = receiving

The "kinder-gentler" twi is no match for........REALITY. Rosalie took the helm in 1998 and the results are the same.....people are STILL leaving. After years of "crossing over into the promised land" and all that jazz, the wierwillite tribe just ain't all that happy. Why are they leaving the land of puppydogs and rainbows? 1) Same old teachings with the same old people 2) No bang for the buck...abs, can kiss my a*s 3) getting older, getting bolder 4) deception, fraud and abuse.....going 'round and 'round 5) where have all the flowers gone? 6) the double-standards are everywhere 7) is donna still the privileged special assistant? 8) no more storage space for all the tapes 9) does anybody really care anymore? REALITY........with a THUD In 1998, martindale was caught in that advanced class sexcapade. Lots of folks found out and started exiting the doors. When martindale confessed to this "one-time affair" in april 2000.......a few months later, 7 Region leaders left twi. Now, this Adam Hirschfeld situation erupts in Colorado.......uugh. Could there be another mini-exodus in the mix? If twi's leaders are so spiritually dull....another THUD to reality? Hit the doors folks........jumpstart your NEW REALITY. Happy Trails.

Yeah..........emphasis on best time going. Kinda like...."you are the best." See any parallels?

Penworks.......that's interesting. All this stuff about wierwille teaching us "the word" that no one else knew.....bullpookie. I still wonder how much wierwille dipped into Scofield's work?? C.I. Scofield Click Here

This thread is going to the dogs.... But, yeah......that's the one.

If you're referring to vic's porn video.... I thought it was a St. Bernard?

In pfal? Hmmmmm..... Probably just one of those generic statements to attract the youth movement. Heck, we're having a good time here. C'mon join the party.....having fun here. Not churchy, or anything like it.

So....THAT is where the devil got access to infiltrate twi.

"Even if there wasn't a heaven, we'd have the best time going!" - vp wierwille I can't remember if wierwille said this at Living Victoriously or on a Sunday teaching, but it vividly made an impression on me. In the context of twi-believers living the word, vpw was highlighting the benefits (again). Yet, he said that little word "if"......"if there wasn't a heaven" Whoa!!! Why the doubt? Why plant that little word "if" in the mix? Why would the man of gawd even consider a sliver of doubt that there wasn't a heaven? That statement bothered me. But then, later.....I realized ...."best time going" refers to those in power ....motorcoaches, motorcycles, minions..oh my ....women, adulation, itineraries, gifts ....traveling, sightseeing, "business AND pleasure" ....personal valet, bodyguards, servants galore ....the drambuie/coffee cup is always full OF COURSE.......he's having the BEST TIME GOING. It was ALL about him.....he couldn't see what it from the "servants' perspective." After giving 15-20 years of your most productive years to twi, then what? No marketable experience in the real world. No master's degree to open doors of opportunity. Very little money to jump-start your business endeavors. Shredded networking and contact lists after having spent two decades in twi. NO WONDER.......people are still leaving twi.

My oh my.....how the years fly by. Years ago, a GS-poster gave detailed incidents in Ohio of m4rk w4ll4c3 and l4rry p4n4r3ll0 standing for the twi-doctrine in all its legalism. Now.......both have severed ties with twi. Seems like sometimes....even the most staunch legalist finds the exit door! What awakens them?......policy? structural politics? demoted position? less power? Most are just looking out for themselves.....period. Who really takes a stand for the "little guy?"

Wierwille was a cherry-picker..... He picked a scripture here and there......but no substance on the two great commandments on love. Figures. Wierwille would side-step this and look for the lazy way out. If there was such a thing as cherry-drambuie.....wierwille could be in line.

Looking back at those "release groups".....it was never about the student's learning. So, what did those little twiggie groups provide at the advanced classes? 1) Repetition for groupthink 2) Know your place and shut your mouth 3) No one criticizes the Mog without reproof 4) Afternoon twig meetings....while bigwigs took nap.

And yet....with all vpw's formal education, he still struggled with thoughts that "Had my father spent all this money to raise a fool?" Wierwille found his pathway forward when he took BG Leonard's class.....because "The Teacher" stood at the front of the class for all to see. The pfal class became the bedrock of the twi-foundation.....and still is, to this day. But.....to really get any momentum, wierwille needed something MORE. He needed an army of volunteers who would carry his get-spiritually-mature-quick message forward. The WOW program plowed the ground for faithfulness... The Corps program sowed the seeds for class instructors.... Wierwille needed faithful followers to run his classes and "bring home the bacon." The corps program was NOT a leadership program......it was a followership program.

Oh, if only.....the majority would see the FRAUD and DECEPTION that twi's directors have been dishing out for decades. Money and investments are one thing......worshipping in vain is quite another.

Any sleezebucket can micromanage and point how the flowers on the altar SHOULD have been placed. But proactive leadership is hard to find. Real leaders are those IN FRONT......not pushing and prodding from behind.

Exactly......there was NO spiritual maturity. The wierwille agenda was an illusion to a social/spiritual utopia.......where the two-rails of the train-track were obfuscation and predation.

Wierwille had the programs for fast-tracking spiritual maturity. The WOW Program.......go and grow 10 years in one. Go wow now. The Corps Program.....upon graduation, the corps will achieve spiritual maturity. All-Aboard !! ......everybody, collectively, get on-board and don't miss the ride. The "corps train"...er "training"....will take you there. But where is THERE, you ask? Spiritual maturity....of course. Everything about the corps program was a train ride.......no individuality, no side-trips, no spontaneity, no choice, no diner stops, no sight-seeing, .......just the monotone ramblings of the wheels over the tracks hour after hour, day after day. Is this worth it? What's at the end? When the train stops, then what? Graduation day arrives. The train ride is over. Now what? Slave encampment.

Were we really subtlety monitored? In the advanced class......twi scheduled in daily "release sessions" at the twig level. This was NOT a time to ask questions, but to "release" (regurgitate..?) what interested you in the class. A time of conformity?.....indoctrination? If your thinking was in alignment with twi.......then NO RED FLAGS.