skyrider

Ummm.....isn't this a discussion forum where people can come and express their viewpoints? Who made YOU judge over others' comments? Didn't we all get ENOUGH OF THAT in twi? This topic of "mother earth" will be debated for the next 500 years (if humanity is still alive on this planet). Heck, I'm for clean air, clean water....etc. From the statistics I've read, the U.S. has progressed past the limits that were set some 10 years ago WITHOUT carbon taxing and EPA regulations waiting to be launched. Besides.....there's the whole debate about other countries, as well. Even if the United States complies, what about China? India? Brazil? Who's gonna go knocking on their door if these other countries don't comply? Obviously, that implies.....a global network, a global society, a global watchdog, global regulations, global standards, global sanctions, global penalties, a global economy. Add together all the special interests and countries' economies just in the fishing industry alone.....and it becomes a mamouth task of oversight. With migration of whales and thousands of species, who's going to control the final authority of this "ministry of mother earth?" Will the "ombudsman" be elected or appointed? Thousands of questions will surface, right? If all animals and plants have "rights"....what will one eat? If every bug has "rights".......every driver is killing daily. Should all trucks, cars, trains, and planes be outlawed? If every plant has "rights".....no one should mow their grass. Walking thru the woods will be prohibited as it endangers the habitat. If microscopic bacteria have "rights".....no one should be allowed to breath without wearing a face-veil or state-approved filtration device. And, the questions would never cease.

During my twi involvement......I never cared much for politics. In the aftermath of "big ministry" sticking their nose into every aspect of my life.... I have NO INTEREST in "big government" anything, having seen that movie before...... I will vote for less government, less spending, less encroachment whichever political tent that happens to be. Labels mean nothing......freedom is everything.

"The bottom line is this. I lay down for no one. I surrender to no one. I stand for my Lord Jesus Christ and I stand for God. I plan on speaking to the whole city wherever it is and uprooting the devil's kingdom myself and I will step on anyone and anything that gets in my way. So who's with me?" ....step on anyone and anything that gets in MY way? chapter and verse, please.

Long gone are the days of youth....when I thought my involvement in twi would help to impact the world. Even after the trustees' fog-delusion days, there was a period of time where I thought twi would *change tracks* and get this train a-rollin. Nope -- martindale and co. only double-downed on their subtlety and hypocrisy! Time marches on and martindale was ousted nearly eleven years ago. Rivenbark sat in the big chair and.......WHAT'S CHANGED? And further, all these years she's grooming her 'understudies' like J0hn Ruppy to follow in her hypocritical mandates. Really? Is the same ole 'Monster Mash" going to be played to the next generation? Good luck with that, twi......it ain't working! Pull your head out of the hypocrite-hole and look around. Step away from your microphone and start listening. Maybe, just get in a car and spend a week traveling around to some home fellowships. And, rather than preach the same verses for the ten-thousandth time......let people share their lives, their concerns, their hurts. What would Jesus do?......he'd listen with his heart and DELIVER THEM FROM THE OPPRESSION AND OPPRESSORS. TWI ---- you're ways are paved with hypocrisy. And, you are grooming leaders to follow in this darkness. How long will the blind lead the blind? Dressed and groomed......and nowhere to go.

I agree......smaller local economies would seem to work much better than a one-size-fits-all economy. Is the ego of man so great that he REALLY THINK he can rule the world? One global system will consolidate power in the hands of a multi-billionare's club, an oligarchy. Just like in cornfield-twi, when everything got "tapped to the root"...... the "tree" was all but dead. Isn't all of life like that.......local habitats, ecosystems? The Florida Everglades is unique and vast and wonderful for plants, birds and animals alike.....for Florida! We don't need elephants in Texas.....do we?

I don't know if "the big plan" is to end capitalism, but if that's the plan.......WHAT IS GOING TO REPLACE IT? Socialism? Fascism? Marxism? What country models the type of replacement that we should strive for? Bolivia? China? Just seems like the ruling class always plays by different rules......every country! The Libyan dictator has, like, 40 billion stashed in banks in several countries. The political class jet-sets all over the world.....polluting the atmosphere on one trip MORE than my whole lifetime on earth. How about.....the U.S. politicians quit sticking their noses in everyone's business and help the down-trodden and abused and homeless here at home? Not only Mother Earth, but humanity is hurting in a big way. Why doesn't China........help Japan? Why doesn't the Arab League.....help Libya? Why doesn't Venezuela....help Cuba? Why does the U.S. have to help everyone? If socialism is so great....why don't socialist countries do the heavy lifting?

Yeah....read it in black and white in my youth and it didn't seem quite right. Years later.....when I saw his misogyny IN LIVING COLOR, a depiction I'll never forget.

Absolutely. And, she is already......."over the world" :)

You're right..... Couldn't even classify him as a beta-max.

Move over twi...... There's another ministry in town. Mother Earth

Thanks OperaBuff......and thanks for your military service. Much appreciated. Although wierwille's methods were extremely subtle, there were times when his mask slipped and one got a peak at another side of wierwille. During my inrez years, I witnessed 3 occasions when wierwille went ballistic with uncontrollable, venomous rage.....two situations involved faithful corps, one involved vpw's bodyguard. And, in my opinion, martindale's yell-fests had nothing on wierwille. Wierwille was alpha male howl hound. Besides the narcissism, it took me years to recognize that wierwille was a misogynist. I had never quite put it at that degree, until Ralph D. came on this forum and gave testimony to some of his experiences.....but I did see and suspect wierwille's disdain for my wife's accomplishments. She had gone on staff in 1970 and had an office in the EOB......and, it wasn't until many years later, when wierwille's disdain for women surfaced. IMO.....wierwille rarely missed an opportunity to advance "his" ministry. Every staff person, every corps person was needed......until they WEREN'T. Sadly, the inner circle of trustees and yes-men covered for wierwille's predation and lusts and mistakes. Had twi ever been a ministry WHERE THE INTEGRITY OF GOD'S WORD LIVED.....there never would have been a Reverend L. Craig Martindale as the 2nd President. Mission Creep............creeps on.

Well defined? Like Libya?

L.E.A.D. was mission creep..... "The Law of Believing" was tested as hitchhikers took to the roads.... Rock climbing....freezing weather....frostbite...."bible study mission creep" And.....not even stopping when failure occurs!

The mainstream news cycle has a new buzzword, mission creep, in describing the Libya military action. Mission creep is the expansion of a project or mission beyond its original goals, often after initial successes.[1] The term often implies a certain disapproval of newly adopted goals by the user of the term. Mission creep is usually considered undesirable due to the dangerous path of each success breeding more ambitious attempts, only stopping when a final, often catastrophic, failure occurs. The term was originally applied exclusively to military operations, but has recently been applied to many different fields. Wierwille's corps program was deeply flawed and stained by "mission creep." The corps program is 40 years old......and DEPENDING ON WHICH CORPS AND DECADE(S) he experienced, the "mission creep" of indoctrination is inescapably related. In general terms, the earlier corps programs were small groups with direct involvement from wierwille on "The Farm." When the 6th corps numbers swelled at the Emporia Campus, things were consistently changing......and the "Sick" corps group experienced more face-meltings (or, so I heard). Add the Rome City campus, add kids.......and changing diapers. But really......"mission creep" of the corps program was dramatically changed during the martindale era. The top-down command centers of twi were encroaching on every aspect of the corps grads' life and lifestyle. Yeah, its one thing to go thru the corps program and/or serve at twi's headquarters.......but, on the field, every day? every corps night? every weekend? And, it was MANDATORY TO ATTEND EVERY CORPS MEETING FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE TO STAY IN TWI'S GOOD GRACES??? So yeah......I know some posters, some of the earlier corps, had nice experiences where they loved each other and served Jesus........BUT WIERWILLE ALLOWED "MISSION CREEP" by neglecting to define his program and its boundaries. And, putting martin-creep in charge. IMO....one of the greatest threads on GS defined the morphing of twi. In categorizing twi in time frames, or presidential eras.....TWI-1, TWI-2, and TWI-3.....it kept discussions from those broad generalizing statements. To be clear, twi has changed dramatically since 1969......hasn't it? Twi stopped selling all the "Joyful Noise" cassettes some 20 years ago. The new way songbooks no longer have the "Yes, it is Jesus" songs throughout......but *prevailing-way* songs. Depending on where your experience lies on the spectrum of "mission creep".......your posts will be colored with those thoughts!

Exactly.....that's what I'm saying. Why should he? Like other pfal grads that I've talked to who slipped away from twi very quickly.....most are thankful for their brush with the pfal class AND THANKFUL TO HAVE MOVED ON QUICKLY.

IMO....wierwille only parroted the Bullinger work to give the impression that he (vpw) "worked the word from Genesis to Revelation." Sure, he read Bullinger's book and grafted some basic numbers into his pfal class.....but wierwille had bigger fish to fry. Was wierwille trying to be a one-shop, one-stop bible study center? Of course......don't they all? While twi gave little mention to Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible (i.e.-- twi might lose some following, some adulation).....the Numbers in Scripture work was superior to anything wierwille ever desired to "upgrade." E.W. Bullinger .

Translation: The simple, basic truths of Christianity are to be embraced. All other twi agendas, programs and propaganda I shunned as abruptly as possible. The Way Ministry used a pfal grad.....but I see no reason to discuss the abuse.

Oh, yeah......wierwille wanted to close off Wierwille Road. That's why he fumed over his neighbor, Schrelickie (sp), who refused a number of times to sell his property to wierwille. If I remember correctly, he blatantly vowed before wierwille that he'd NEVER sell his property to twi as long as he lived. And, as long as the neighbor lived there, closing off wierwille road was a dead issue. With regards to whether wierwille should have built its own University campus at HQ....brings to mind lots of questions? 1) Why did twi have such a hodge-podge approach to its corps campuses? 2) Why Camp Gunnison? Nice piece of property, but did twi invest wisely here, really? 3) LEAD at Tinnie, NM.......all for the purpose of hitchhiking and climbing rocks? 4) Maybe the Rome City Campus was best-suited for classes and dorm facilities? 5) What if twi would have made this Indiana campus its College Division Theology Center? And......what if twi had been a legitimate Theology Seminary rather than an indoctrination factory. Guess we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?

Don't forget.... Light Through an Eastern Window -- Orientalisms Hunter's Safety Course -- Shooting Range (2 shotgun/ 10 .22 rifle) Jet-Style Packing Christian Ediquette Pulling Weeds 101

Again......I think that whole "associate theology degree" was a ruse. When you step back and look at the broader picture.......around 1976, twi was promoting "The Way College of Emporia" campus with historical Andrew Carnegie Library to acquire an accredited Associate Theology Degree. Twi did not meet those accreditation standards in Kansas......and later, twi informed us that this degree would be issued from the Rome City campus. The College Division at Emporia had a decent enrollment, but was second tier to the corps program. Some classes combined the college division AND corps......but the 'spiritual-heavy' meetings excluded the college division. See, classes are one thing, but when wierwille was on grounds......only corps were privy to these meetings. And, how many years did it take before the College Division faded from view.....?? And, how many years did it take before Word in Business Conferences faded away..?? Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille watched over the training of the corps. Dr. Donald Wierwille was slotted oversight of the College Division. How serious was that associate theology degree??.....about as serious as the College Division program?? I seriously doubt whether vpw ever wanted a college division in the first place. Maybe the public recognition, but not segregated classes and commitment to keep furthering one's education. The point is -- the driving promotion in twi was the Corps Program and in-house indoctrination. Not accredited class. Not a diploma.

Some would argue, rightfully.......twi's final demise was in 1988. Didn't other groups "hit the wall" after about 15-18 years as well? That would be an interesting study......that these new age movements fizzle out after about 18 years, after ONE GENERATION? And, why is that? Could it be that the youth grow up and other responsibilities take hold? Could it be that the leader of the group is exposed as a fraud? Could it be that the abuse so infiltrates the group that most exit? Could it be that the manipulation tactics no longer work after so long? Could it be that the group has too many chiefs and not enough indians? All of the above?

Yeah.....a mixed bag for sure! Without twi, without the corps program......I wouldn't have my two amazing kids either. :)

geisha.......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels. On the brotherhood link, this quote stands out....."There have also been many well-attended reunions and gatherings of former and current members where the issue of the community’s controversial legacy remains a major topic. Those who were part of the Brotherhood of the Spirit have gone on to become teachers, artists, health-care providers, millionaire executives, and at least one ordained Buddhist monk. Their views about their time spent in the community run the full gamut of human emotions and opinions." The Brotherhood of the Spirit .

socks......you lost me there. I have grievances against the Way, against wierwille.......BECAUSE HE AND TRUSTEES WERE DECEPTIVE AND MANIPULATIVE AND BETRAYED TWI FOLLOWERS AND THE CORPS. In this thread, primarily, we've been discussing the bogus associate theology degree and the salt covenant. I contend that the whole concept of an "associate theology degree and an accredited christian college" was all a ruse......twi wasn't even in the ballpark of that description. The Emporia campus was a clone-factory to punch out as many J0hnnie T0wns3nds that it could.....in other words, dedicated class instructors. Not leaders! Not men of integrity! Not decision-makers. The corps was a follower-ship program. My grievances against twi are many.....but bottom-line, a bait-and-switch operation. Twi baited willing volunteers with verses of scripture, baited us with veneer programs.....but inside, they were HYPOCRITES as depicted of the Pharisees in my last post. I understand that you went thru "the system" and corps a few years before me and saw "the Farm" a few years before me. And, I sat in many meetings and sharings where Howard would talk about helping to build the BRC...or Mal & Jan would share about being led into sit by wierwille. All that stuff is small potatoes to what I'm spotlighting here. More along the lines...."it's not what enters a man that defiles him, but what comes out of the man" sorta thing. TWI became defiled because the HEARTS OF THE TRUSTEES was defiled. If I were to highlight and talk about people like you, socks, and hundreds of others who were simple-hearted and pure.....I could attest to the goodness of God. There were many, many good-hearted folk in twi who had deep compassion in their hearts to serve others. I understand that. But the stumbling block was twi's upper leaders......same as in Jesus' day where the Pharisees lorded over the people. And, that's why twi's salt covenant is a sordid sin pact.......they (twi) can wallow in sin, yet hold the advanced class grads and corps accountable to cherry-picked scriptures. For all their "First Century Church" jargon....they make it sound like the early believers walked in lockstep unity with a renewed mind. Egads! Doesn't anyone read the scriptures anymore and have an ounce of critical thinking? The early believers were as diverse and opinionated and unique as it gets. So, socks.......my grievances are NOT with the little rules and regs that twi implemented to safeguard them from the townies. I can appreciate some of the "warm-fuzzies" of yester-year and all......but, geeze-louise, when the curtain is pulled back all I see is a bumbling, conniving "wizard" in purple pajamas. And, like Dorothy in that classic movie, MOST EVERYTHING I WAS SEARCHING FOR, I HAD ALL ALONG. :)

Socks.....you are a peacemaker. I like that and respect you for it. Me?.......I come to GS to tell the other side and to help break the yoke of bondage. Here, at GS......that verse "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant" is quoted quite often. And, in context.....Jesus pulled NO PUNCHES in reproving the Pharisees. Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous