skyrider

Exactly!......geisha, you and I were thinking along the same lines. I started a thread to say the same thing. :)

Wierwille was an outlier.....he never fit in anywhere. In childhood, he hid in the woods to avoid work. Some say that he went there to talk to the trees. In wedding.....he and Dorothy went to Kentucky and married in secret during vic's 3rd year at Mission House College. In pastorate...in 1941, vpw was pastor of St. Jacob's Church in Payne, OH (a vacancy of two years) In radio......inspired by Rev. Charles Fuller's radio program, vic assembles five to start Vesper Chimes In searching..vic attends E. Stanley Jones Ashram in July 1944. Wierwille is pictured in back row of some 160 attendees. On the go.....vpw kept searching for more answers....or was he simply searching to find his marketing schtick? A youngster among men.....the young pastor wierwille was eager to invite guest speakers to his Van Wert church. Encouraged by men....Glenn Clark, who had attended Stiles' Ashram also, told young vic about "Camps Farthest Out" Thesis work.....master's thesis, "Peter as an Evangelistic Preacher"....doctoral dissertation, "Peter the Preacher" Challenging or lazy?........why did wierwille take the SAME thesis path for his doctorate? And, this is re-search? Pikes Peak Seminary.....wierwille took correspondence work with this outlier seminary in Colorado. Unmerited short-cuts. BG Leonard......wierwille stole BG's class and taught it as his own. Documented time and time again. Still on church payroll.....wierwille stayed on Van Wert Payroll for nearly 4 years.....an outlier of his own congregation. Brother Leonard....even visited wierwille a year later, August 1-8, 1954 to teach more about faith, healing and miracles. Bishop KC Pillai...a rogue Anglican bishop from India was in a Tennessee Baptist church when Harry invited him to see vic. Pillai opened India doors.....and wierwille and family were hosted by Dr. I.S. Williams during their India stay. Unanimous vote on wierwille's resignation at St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church, Van Wert Ohio.....August 7, 1957. Yeah....wierwille was an outlier and he went rogue as he deviated from academic disciplines and standards. Guest speakers, ministers and mentors of wierwille were, oftentimes, outside the pail of mainstream Christianity. Even wierwille's attendance at the Tulsa Convention as noted in twi's book, Born Again to Serve, shows a disdain for Oral Roberts....as wierwille is self-centered to have his own questions answered. The scriptures speak of shepherds and hirelings........wierwille was an hireling. He did not care for the "sheep".....wierwille cared about only one thing -- himself. Isn't it rather interesting that wierwille does his master's and doctorate dissertation on Peter -- a man who was outspoken and left Jesus for a short period? Yet, did wierwille ever come full circle and embrace Jesus' deliverance and in-depth teachings in all their magnitude? I think not. Today, I would describe twi as "wierwillian".....not Christianity. One of the major areas where wierwille went rogue, in my opinion, was his cornerstone teaching of "Believing Equals Receiving." Wierwille expounded on his teaching that "Believing was one of the greatest laws in the universe." What you believe, you become. If one isn't careful, this sort of teaching leads to "what the mind can conceive, it can achieve." Thus, the mind becomes the central focus of concern, of worship. But if believing is the central tenet.....then how did God bring to pass the impossible when Zacharias BELIEVED NOT the promise of God that was fulfilled in due season, the birth of John the Baptist? [Luke 1:20] Wierwille sold his outlier weeds in pfal....that were pawned off as a wheat field of abundance. The weeds of "believing" and "speaking in tongues" and "man of God" etc. etc.....grew and grew to where they choked off any scriptures that had any relevance to Christians. But really, why should any of this surprise us? Look at wierwille's past. Look at wierwille's credentials. Look at all the lies and shortcuts wierwille took to acclaim a merited, scholarly position. Even 30 years ago, few in mainstream christian circles ever heard of "Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille." Today, wierwille's "work" has COME TO NOUGHT [Acts 5:38] just as Gamaliel said it would. Sometimes, I think that Wierwille's one and only true friend was....Drambuie. <_<

I doubt whether I could stomach the thought of plugging thru the narcissism again, but I know what you mean. Even when I heard it the FIRST TIME......I didn't believe it.

Well......it looks like martindale isn't the only one to mention GREASE SPOTS. Mike Malloy, a radio talkshow host, mocks storm victims and "Their God Who Is Smashing Them." Interesting to see this language resurface........since martindale used it some 16-18 years ago.

Yes.......good movie. :) Some of this manipulation and seduction reminds me of Atlas Shrugged "James Taggart leaned back in his chair, watching them; he was beginning to enjoy the conversation. Yes, said Dr. Ferris, 'I'm thinking of it, too. I'm thinking of a certain tycoon who is in a position to blast us to pieces. Whether we'll recover the pieces or not, is hard to tell. God knows what is liable to happen at a hysterical time like the present and in a situation as delicate as this. Anything can throw everything off balance. Blow up the whole works. And if there's anyone who wants to do it, he does. He does and can. He knows the real issue, he knows the things which must not be said--and he is not afraid to say them. He knows the one dangerous, fatally dangerous weapon. He is our deadliest adversary. Who? asked Lawson. Dr. Ferris hesitated, shrugged and answered, 'The guiltless man.' Lawson stared blankly, 'What do you mean and whom are you talking about?' James Taggart smiled. 'I mean that there is no way to disarm any man.' said Dr. Ferris, except through guilt. Through that which he himself has accepted as guilt. If a man has ever stolen a dime, you can impose on him the punishment intended for a bank robber and he will take it. He'll bear any form of misery, he'll feel that he deserves no better. If there's not enough guilt in the world, we must create it. If we teach a man that it's evil to look at spring flowers and he believes us and then does it--we'll be able to do whatever we please with him. He won't defend himself. He won't feel he's worth it. He won't fight. But save us from the man who lives up to his own standards. Save us from THE MAN OF CLEAN CONSCIENCE [emphasis added]. He's the man who'll beat us.' For Christians of faith, the one man who sacrificed his life for sins forever and sat down at the right hand of God .....we draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith. When I exited twi and shunned their hypocrisy.........I left with a clean conscience. No guilt trips will ever draw me back into that deception again.

Whoa, whoa, whoa......there John. You are jumping to this straw man argument of moral superior. And now, you start adding "offshoots" to the mix. I simply believe that when Jesus spoke, those words and sermons have depth of meaning for Christians. In its context, Matthew 7 illustrates false prophets, good trees, good fruit, evil trees, evil fruit, house built on a rock, house built on sand, etc. And, having experienced 24 years of twi hypocrisy and deceptive doctrine......I believe that twi's directors are working iniquity AGAINST THE LORD. Yes, John....I know that this is not the doctrinal forum, but if you have more interest in Matthew 7:24....then you might want to do a word study on 1)depart and 2)work iniquity. It is interesting how "practicing hypocrisy" and "to utter error against the Lord" and "to make empty the soul of the hungry" are associated with THOSE WHO WORK INIQUITY.

Johniam/excie......seriously, I don't think that I've gone too far by saying that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi".....stringing chairs, condiments, floral arrangements, breathmints in dishes, etc.....would lead to this. Who could possibly say that such rigid obsession of stringing chairs would lead to BUILDING ONE'S HOUSE UPON A ROCK, OR THE ROCK CHRIST JESUS? These scriptures might possibly help convey what I said..... Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Let me add.....this whole context speaks of false prophets, good tree, good fruit, evil tree, evil fruit... Those entrenched in this evil.......I believe it is fair to state Matt. 7:23 But hey....that's just me. <_< Re-read the context of my statement. I cannot possibly believe that the Lord would approve of a cult's nitpicky micro-management of things.....rather than DOING the Lord's work. .

Yeah.....there seems to be a world of difference between the corporate hdqtrs job of board meetings, name-drop authority, job entrenchment, security and seniority, and a comfy-a$$ chair to sit in. Many of those 8th corps guys.....John L., Gary F., John Reynolds,.....settled in these cornfield corporate staff jobs and there till death. Contrast that with the field branch corps who have to find secular work AND oversee twi's outreach work. Thus, its NO SUPRISE that the field corps get smacked upside the head with reality, paying bills, fighting traffic, running classes, jumping hoops, filling out outreach reports, witnessing nights........ALL TYPES OF THINGS that hq-corps rarily face. Is there any wonder why the field corps find the exit doors much quicker?

Exactly!.....it takes a deliberate, conscience effort to uncover and examine and expunge the whole of wierwillism from one's life.

john......your posts rarily add much to the conversation and this is another case in point. Deprogramming, exit counseling, interventions, thought reform......all of these topics can be studied in length if one so chooses. Your little quip, "deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns" is a dismal attempt of interjecting your perspective of something that you, seemingly, know very little about. Wierwille set in motion a system of repetition that "programmed" individuals from their former lives. The abandonment of family, mixed with repetition and isolation, no questioning the mog, the demands for strict loyalty, etc.....WAS a programming of thought reform. Twi adheres to a top-down command structure that runs at cross-purposes with the Father/son relationship in christianity.....and the wisdom of Proverbs. Obedience is the mortar of twi's building.......not the love of God. Anyone who has studied thought reform or deprogramming knows that its FAR MORE than just trying to "force someone against their chosen belief system." At stages, deprogrammers introduce concepts of questioning authority to jumpstart the critical thinking process.....or bring in family members to initiate a re-bonding of family process. Etc. Etc. All of this stringing chairs, condiments, silverware placement, floral arrangements, meticulous flower beds, etc. is the petting loyalty to servitude obedience that strokes twi-idolatry. This busy-work detracts and negates the pressing work of healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, relieving the heavy burdens, etc. that defines true christian work. In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you." .

Yeah.....when I said "affiliated" I was thinking of what you stated above. No, SOWERS is not in the organizational chart of CFF......two separate entities, yet with common bonds. Anyone who knew Doug McM back in the twi-days, remembers he was Howard's right-hand man and completely loyal to the wierwille-utopia mentality......imo. If I recall correctly, Doug ran with the security-type guys like Charlie Q. before patrolling the grounds became standard procedure. With these "common relationships".....neither CFF nor SOWERS are competing in the same market. And really, SOWERS doesn't have to invent the wheel.....just name-drop the grandpappy legacy alot, reprint the material in updated brochures and tap the CFF pool of followers looking for nature and adventure. But really......isn't this christian camp stuff traced back to this man? Glenn Clark / Camps Farthest Out

This begs the question..... If rosalie's twi is so awesome and wonderful now.......why would there be disgruntles wanting to leave? Nevermind what CFF is attempting to do.....what's wrong with twi, Rosalie? Too much legalism, too much micro-management, dead-pan teachings, fossilized personalities.......why is twi hemorrhaging? They could change things within their control if they wanted to, but they don't. Why not?

Well, umm......isn't SOWERS affiliated with CFF? And.....aren't two wierwille kids directly involved with desires to keep the wierwille flame burning? I ran outta popcorn watching twi & geerites fight over the skunk-pelt mantle.....and now, CFF via "sowers" keeps trying to nudge the others off the "we've got the word" pedestal. :unsure:

Preach away.....after so many years of hearing their drivel, hearing the sound of one's inner voice is refreshing and healing. :)

OldSkool.......yeah, its called DIVERSION. Twi cannot and will not answer for their past......because they cannot "win the argument." Most all fervent observers know that twi attempts to CONTROL the talking points, CONTROL the narrative, CONTROL the perception of uprightness. I vividly remember this SAME, REPETITIVE RESPONSE of "living in the past" used back in 1994, 1995.....when martindale was in charge. When straying twi-followers would come to branch meetings or roa and want to talk about geer's paper or lcm's loyalty paper and corps were instructed to move forward. Do not consider it. Do not take the bait. In other words, if you venture down that road of "considering the past".....then the devil is gonna take you out! All of this is in twi's dna-messaging from the slither-crew -- the directors. It's programming.....straight-up! The lemmings will follow them over the cliff. The greatest fear that twi-directors hold is that staff/corps/followers will start THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. The more I delve into this, the more I see the stern confrontation in Galatians......who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth.....has TWI in its crosshairs. The twi-followers need to get away from this verbal agitation and let the peace of God rule again!!

And, there you have it folks........LEAD is not needed. For years, corps couldn't graduate WITHOUT it........and then, its not even needed! Flip flop, flip flop......when is the hypocrisy gonna stop? Through the years, twi has always had its "obedience projects"......the 6th corps had to hitchhike to Texas and work on a potato farm. Many in the 7th corps went to work at Grand Log Homes in Colorado....and some went for months of construction/electrical/plumbing aspects of the LEAD location. Is there any wonder why corps, who were treated like slave labor, left decades ago?

Well.....it looks like little jr. jr hasn't quite stepped up the terminology like twi did. From S.O.W.E.R.S. participant: Journal excerpt from the second day of my solo: April 27, 2011 Wilderness outside of Goshen… Life is just happening and I’m not doing anything to change it. It’s like Dr. Wierwille said, “solo. Man, if that ain’t the greatest time of your life you’ve missed the mountain. Around 1979......"solo" was changed to "duo" Reason: A solo is when you are alone. A duo is when there's two -- God and you. C'mon, jr. jr..........you ain't teaching it like your grandpappy did. <_< .

Exactly! People all over the world......campers, hikers, skiiers, backpackers, trackers, hunters, solo-climbers, etc. are far more ADVANCED in these areas than wayfers. And, if twi considers its LEAD program "spiritual"...... they haven't a clue on reality. Crap......I never even saw wierwille build a d@mn campfire, or anything! Oh, that's right.......that's what servants are for.

Then.....wierwille's "spiritual believing race" is deplorable compared to "non-christian types." <_<

LEAD........was another INDOCTRINATION PROGRAM FOR TWI. Obey, follow rules, confrontation, etc.......and this "LEAD report" was put in their corps file. The trustees would make assignment decisions based on this final, obey-with-good-attitude-when-roughing-it report. Hence....."believing" was NOT the criteria. Obedience was. <_< .

Wierwille and co. claimed that climbing rocks.....with LEAD staff coaching baby-rock climbing techniques, ropes, harnesses, partner support, team effort, etc.......taught spiritual truths to overcome fear and better walk with God. Wierwille's LEAD "campus" was an extended, time-of-proving-your-spiritual-elevation program PRIOR TO CORPS GRADUATION. If LEAD was spiritual....then solo climbing is SUPER-STRATOSPHERE SPIRITUAL ELEVATION BELIEVING. Hence......the comparison between wierwille's propaganda vs solo climbing is an absurdity twi will never admit. No, I wouldn't endorse solo climbing for my kids, but if "believing" is the standard.......you gotta admit, Alex Honnold is a GIANT BELIEVER among newborns.

So, while wierwille's lusts are going vroom, vroom.......later, his mind fears a boom, boom.

.....what does that make solo climbing? No ropes, no harness, no safety gear......Alex Honnold fearlessly climbs. Last night, 60 Minutes did an exclusive story on Alex's climbing ability. Yes, his feats have been known for several years....and what he climbs is absolutely amazing. Here is a link......

Yeah.....the waste of human energy was staggering. And, speaking of roa.......around 1980 -- a family corps guy, military vet, was assigned to crawl around the scaffolding under the main stage to check for bombs. He specialized in munitions while in the military. Wierwille and psycho-geer were increasingly more paranoid with each passing year.

twinky.......yeah, works for me. Thanks. I've said this before, but......I think my farming background had alot to do with my independent streak. Doing twi's mundane, trivial tasks in the name of "spiritual learning" were just asinine to me. My Dad had me driving a tractor at age 10 and a combine during wheat harvest at 11......along with cattle, alfalfa fields, corn irrigation, etc. it gave me a perspective of real work. Stringing chairs was like "busy work".......to order us around, just because they could. I despised it. Perhaps, I'd view this differently if wierwille and others had walked in spiritual power, rather than just chest-pumping platitudes. The whole place reeked of repetition and fraud. Good riddance to those memories of misery. <_< .