skyrider

As I've posted countless times.....I saw red flags in twi as early as 1978. 1) The cover-up of the failed pfal-updating -- ie PFAL '77 2) Wierwille fuming over three 8th corps guys doing rogue research 3) Why was wierwille and co. so threatened by alternative perspectives? 4) Corps nights meetings were being used to call out cop-outs 5) Why is one a 'cop-out' from leaving twi? Wierwille LEFT his church. 6) If there's FIVE gift ministries......where are they? 7) Rather than a leadership program, the corps seems like a FOLLOWSHIP program 8) Harry died age 70.....Ermal died age 69 (in 1979).......hmmmmmm. 9) And, wierwille wasn't front-n-center at roa healing services. What? 10) Is leading from behind how Paul/Timothy/Titus did it? Nope. But, for me, yeah cynical me...........wierwille's example as 'man of God for our day and time.' Where are the signs, revelation, miracles, healings? And, I was corps/staff around wierwille and hq for EIGHT YEARS. My wife and I were invited to the wierwille home for dinner. I listened. I obeyed. Yes, wierwille was charismatic and could preach a dramatic sermon.........but a MOGFODAT, no. And, yes......I suppressed those 'thinking evil thoughts' when I read thru Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible and thinking, "Gee, did wierwille plagairize this stuff from Bullinger?" See, twi indoctrination had instilled in me A RED LINE THAT I WAS NOT TO CROSS.....thinking disparagingly of wierwille who was called to teach 'new light.' Yet, I often mused of the red flags that I'd seen. Was I the only one? Silly me. I really thought that ANOTHER leader, another president, would be a step forward from the petrified-pfal cycle. If.....yes, if....twi was truly God's ministry and research was uncovered to better our walk before Him, they twi would change. Wouldn't it? See, there again.....I held out and held out......not trying to cross that RED LINE OF EVIL THINKING. So, I waited.....and waited. Being on the field was ALWAYS a relief and blessing. Because....on the field I was not constricted by twi's box. Away from hq.....and far away from their legalism, I saw the power of God. I was liberated to walk with Him freely. Did I speak in tongues constantly? Nope. Did I subscribe to the 16 keys to walking by the spirit? Nope. Did I parrot the pfal-doctrine everywhere I went? Nope. Maybe, I was just a rebel like many of you....... hahaha. I simply opened my heart to the Lord and fixed my eyes upon His grace, His mercy, His power......and went forward to help others like a good Samaritan. I loved reading the gospels and the life of Jesus Christ and his ministry. If Christ in deed was the Head..........shouldn't he be running the railroad? Shouldn't the Lord be the Head Engineer and calling.....'All Aboard.' While many wierwille apologists claim the greatness of pfal....wasn't wierwille snatching back the spotlight before the class was over? Just write The Teacher, ya know. He's got the answers. /sarc. Time and twi's feckless programs have vindicated my 'evil thinking.' And, Greasespot posters have exposed and expounded countless topics. We were deceived and deceiving others. I thank the Lord for His mercy and grace. What could have been if the Lord had been running the railroad.

Like so many topics.....this one, too, brings back loads of why-did-I-stay-so-long memories. I remember back in the 70's......when, after the intermediate class, the 'bold ones' would keep prompting some of us to ".....have a believer's meeting and HEAR FROM GOD." And, silently I would say to myself......."Really? Isn't that what the sriptures emphatically do?" Uuuuugh.

In my opinion......this whole discussion would be better served by taking the focus off "lied about it" and submit to being deceived and deceiving others. This topic surfaces every few years.....especially regarding the intermediate class coaching and coercion of 'tongues with interpretation.' Heck, even wierwille didn't want to update and tackle this project, but rather passed this responsibility onto Earl Bvrton. Too contrived. Too rehearsed. Yet, to inspire 'unbelievers'....huh? The masses followed wierwille as a teacher.......and yet, all of the questions that still linger. 2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

In my readings on this Middle East crisis of U.S. Embassies......an article linked to this: Click Here -- Gradualism To me......with the decades-long backdrop of the twi-indoctrination still lingering, this whole "gradualism" and "shariah" doctrine reminds me of placing a frog in a lukewarm pot of water and GRADUALLY turning up the heat on the stove. In the end.....THE FROG IS BOILED ALIVE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT. Uummm......what are *some* of the distinguishing aspects of Shariah Law? 1) Major oppression of women......talk about a 'war on women' 2) Killing all homosexuals 3) Dominant and oppressive rule of mullahs 4) Western way of life is obliterated 5) Obsessive violence over minor indiscretions 6) Prohibiting alcohol 7) Etc. etc. etc.

What..??? Are you saying that twi was NOT this great, truth-remnant, standing-in-the-gap, true household of God? I am shocked.....shocked, I tell you.

Twi's corps program expanded their reach of 'extended training' to field corps and corps grads when, after the so-called "fog years" (1986-1989).....weekly corps meetings via phone hookup to hq. In the 1990s, martindale used these phone hookups liberally to confront issues, slander corps who had exited, 'teach and tweak' scriptures, and pontificate his greatness. EACH week, EVERY time.....when I phoned hq and waited patiently, either Joe C0ulter or a/v guy would ask the SAME three questions: 1) How many corps are in attendance? 2) And, only corps are present? 3) And, you're NOT recording is that correct? As corps, branch/limb coordinators....those of us who initiated this phone call to hq ALWAYS were asked these questions. Of course, I realized this same line of questioning in 1991.....I couldn't help but ponder WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS? So.....what if *I DID RECORD* a corps meeting to show others some of the vile confrontations that martindale dished out to corps? Did twi leaders so distrust the corps that these same questions NEEDED repeated every corps hook-up? Would twi come after me and contest this 'recorded evidence' in a court of law be thrown out? Would twi leverage their authoritarian power against my disobedience (recording a meeting)? All of this seems surreal now as the martindale thunder was ousted and silenced in 2000. If twi continued this practice into the 2000s, I have no idea. I was long gone. <_<

I sometimes wonder if this has more to do with some wanting to romanticize and reminisce 'being a part of something great' when wierwille walked the earth. Sure, its extreme fabrication and all....but it sure beats the realization of decades lost and sputtering to explain one's entrapment in western ohio's cornfields. :B)

Well........maybe this information *can't* be verified. Seems like a few years back, a few CFF-innies would post on GS..... But then again, I would suppose that a splinter group tied to the wierwille legacy does NOT want to be associated with a website that exposes and debunks the foundation of wierwille mogdom.

chockfull......yeah, what a simple concept: 1) local families gathered together with open bibles and humble hearts, 2) healthy respect directed to fathers who shared in teaching scripture and worked alongside families in need, 3) loving, supportive mothers who raised kids, guardians of their homes, always teaching and multi-talented, 4) children see family and neighborly love exemplified day after day, year after year, 5) scripture comes alive as "loving God and neighbor as yourself" is right there in front of you. 6) no room for vaunting oneself above others as "the spiritual leader" 7) living thru challenges and hardships have a way of keeping the heart humble, 8) nature and harvest time have its own beauty of painting God's majesty. :)

T&O......your post addresses some deep, pondering issues that go to the very core of man's relationship with God. As you pointed out, in the days of Israel the people wanted a man-king to rule over them when the Lord God made it pointedly clear that He would be their KING. Yet, the nature of man slides back into captivity. Same with modern Christianity.....where, after Pentecost, God provided ONE mediator between man and Himself...the lord Jesus Christ. Yet, just seems like the nature of man keeps looking for a "pastor/church/cult mediator" as his summit point of allegiance and worship. Time and time again, I get invited to other churches because his/her minister is just so awesome (???)........same old, same old. This subject has always intrigued me......because my paternal grandparents had "church in the home" starting in mid-1920s. An itinerant preacher would be invited to attend their home about every 6 weeks as he traveled about in two counties in rural America. Yet, a majority of the time....with several families in attendance, the men shared the responsibility of leading in prayer, singing, worship, etc. If one family had special urgent needs, everyone pitched in to help. If a barn needed built, or wheat needed harvesting.....families helped other families. Women and others were always near by with food preparation and meals.....or canning, sewing, children, bruises, babies, etc. There was NO "awesome pastor" standing week after week at his pulpit......and NO religious hierarchy to speak of. What a concept. With my grandparents example.......twi's home fellowships were NOT a novel concept, or "just done in the 1st century church era." I always used to chuckle when wierwille boasted "his" renewal concept of church in the home. hahahaha

Twi's corps program was straight-up indoctrination.......and speeding towards wierwille-idolatry. Twi's field fellowships had more of the "kindergarten component".......sitting in a circle, be quiet, cookies later. :B)

:eusa_clap:

OperaBuff.....oh, yeah, the psychology of teacher/follower relationship. And...."uncle" Harry, the beloved and benevolent brother of vic who gave generously. And...."it's good to be HOME again" sung at the start of roa. And....spirit is thicker than blood; twi is your TRUE family. And....the true household has the inside track of the whole christian family. And...."uncle" Howard was introduced into twi-nomenclature circa 1994

Yeah, it happens in all walks of life......but earth-shaking 'evil associations and cultish groupthink' discussions can rock the foundation of one's core beliefs. Ironic, isn't it? In an OPEN forum.....OPEN discussion.....OPEN thoughtful conversation, the twi-follower cannot handle OPEN investigation. 1) Who was victor paul wierwille.....really. 2) Twi was NOT really founded in 1942. 3) Wierwille still on church payroll in 1957. 4) BG Leonard's class....twi's foundation. 5) VPW was not original, with no snowstorm revelation. 6) Plagairism.....opportunist....misogynist....predator. 7) No, no, no....it wasn't wierwille. Martindale was the problem. 8) Mrs. W's book gives details that debunk vpw's mogdom. 9) Central control at hq.....while innies desire local support. 10) The smell of legalism has been in the air since mid-70s. 11) Power manifested? Where? Why is twi so stagnant? 12) Twi never was, nor is, what it was purported to be. Is there any wonder why twi isolates their people from such OPEN discussions?

Yeah......and in wierwille's mind, he probably never did. Here's another thing.....in my long conversation on Saturday with a long-standing innie, she wanted to hear the details of why my wife and I exited twi. So, I gave her the background, the lead-up to our exit, our meeting with region coordinators, and that a year later--they too left, red-flags, etc.....while she listened. Of course, she kept saying that "the ministry is MUCH BETTER NOW WITHOUT MARTINDALE AS PRESIDENT" and all. That seems to be twi's mantra of using martindale as the fall guy and keep wierwille's mogship intact. So....when I gave this innie several examples of wierwille's sexual predations, his plagairism, his flawed research, his "cancer is a devil spirit" and wierwille died of cancer, etc........she had to regroup her thoughts for a bit. Then......she admitted that SHE DOESN'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS AT HQ. Rosalie and 'those people' do NOT affect her life. Besides, she rarily goes to hq anyway and that's fine with her. Right now, she enjoys her local fellowship coordinator and his teachings. Her divorce (involving another innie) is over....and she's moving on. I've heard this before....many times actually. Whenever I'm asked to explain my reasons for leaving twi and specify details that are undeniably irrefutable, the innie will distance herself/himself from it and claim LOCAL LEADERSHIP IS WHAT MATTERS.

Back in 1974......the young, rebel nature in me liked wierwille's directness on religion. Teaching after teaching, he jabbed and poked and mocked denominations and their ministers who didn't have answers; who lacked power just when they needed it most; and some who feared their own shadow. Wierwille embellished "his stories" to empower his message. Yes, back then....wierwille had "game" and was adept at offense. He marketed his approach to the youth and their rebel-rousing ways against authoritarian rule. Whether it was institutions of higher learning, religious hierarchies, dudley do-right church goers, or misguided parents.....wierwille dismantled support systems and targeted vulnerabilities. The agenda is to knock you off-balance....to get you to question.....to raise suspicion and doubt. Once doubt is sufficiently raised, the "door" opens to a whole new set of paradigms. After 33-hours of pfal.....supposedly, we now had "the keys to unlock the doors to the more abundant life." Yet, year after year, I started to detect a pattern to wierwille's teachings. Interspersed at certain junctures was a scoff, or a scorn, or a smug snigger, or a mocking, or a putdown, or a potshot........at the opponent. Plenty of these were scattered even in pfal.....the scholar on the other side of the English Channel that wierwille wouldn't "waste his time on".....the fearful mother whose little Johnnie was killed while walking home......when vpw spoke High German and the ministers were giddy with excitement that vpw had spoken in tongues. At the expense of others' character, wierwille attempts to elevate his search, his findings, and summit. No where was this pattern more prevalent than in-house corps and staff meetings. Rather than a genuine lifting up of the whole, the teachable moments were more predominant on the putdown/potshot side of the continuum. Corps meetings around 1980, 1981 was when I observed vpw's taintedness even more (as some 6th corps grads and clergy started exiting twi). Cop-outs, they were! See, they were in this nebulous, vague, general category of "forsaking the word" that was never explained. Just smeared! Even men like BG Leonard.....what did wierwille say about him? Or, EW Bullinger? Wait for it.......wait for it.......a scorn of "where they were off the word." The game was either/or. The game was black or white. The game was with or against. The game was us or them. The game was "my way or the hi-way." And, to this day.....twi IS smugly righteous in their own eyes. I know.......I just had a long conversation with an innie yesterday. :B) .

Yeah....twi's understanding of scripture is less that Casperish......er, cartoonist. Or, maybe swine are porous....i.e. Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine... And....cancer spirits can't even attach themselves to a lifer of chain smoking. /sarc

waysider/socks.......thanks. No, I don't mean to imply that it was "this" and then, became "that"..... I guess that I sometimes just remember the liberating, flexible "acceptance" of the local twigs. You know, when you could dip in and out according to your lifestyle and schedule and still be warmly welcomed. No strings attached type-of-thing. Kinda silly, probably......but I could "feel the love in the room whenever I was there." :)

And to further the point..... Back in 1974, 1975 twi-days.....wierwille stated that twigs were to be 1) self-governing 2) self-propagating 3) self-sustaining. To those who were around 38 years ago (oh, my!)...... how controlling and oppressive it became in less than 10 years.

On so many levels, twi stripped individual freedom and responsibility from our lives. Whether it was manipulation, deception, coercion or repetition......our boundaries were invaded. Singing those childish songs, with hand motions gets the mind saying obey, obey, yes, yes, do, do. So, we follow their lead.....we follow their advice.....we follow their commands. I hold to the belief that there WOULD have been a mass exodus even without Geer's POP paper. People were moving on in their lives with kids, education, career choices, growing responsibilities. Wierwille died in 1985......and one year later, there were NO FLOWERS on his grave. There was no massive outpouring of wierwille adoration; no pilgrimages to twi headquarters. Remember.....Geer used this to say "the U.S. way corps had forgotten their father in the Word." Geer re-fueled another surge of wierwille adoration via guilt association. Never underestimate twi's ability to utilize intimidation and guilt. They loved to have their vanity stroked daily. .

From where I sit today.......in pfal, wierwille did the "sleight-of-hand" trick and STUDYING SCRIPTURE become the summit climb of twi's more abundant life. The more one embraced twi doctrine.....er, "The Word" --- the higher rung on the ladder he climbed AND more spiritual he was touted. Made in the image of wierwille, the "researchers and teachers" were highly prized.....as long as he/she stayed tethered to twi doctrine. The scriptural "members in particular".....builders, craftsmen, cooks, pilots, etc.....was no where to be found in twi's caste system. The staffers had/have their station in twi's "abundant life".....and rarily see upward mobility. It speaks volumes to the exploitation. Heck, when vice presidents and cabinet members are shuffled out the back door by the chagrin and whim of the matriarch, rosalie's, decisions.....it reeks of rottenness.

Gee.....could he be MORE vague? Wierwille could see the secular world.......the WHOLE of America? or the WHOLE world? How did he know if they were "non-Christians?" What qualifies as manifesting a more abundant life? Did he survey members of his church and other churches? Unbelievable......that people still buy into this clap-trap. .

Wierwille presented John 10:10 as his centerpiece for twi involvement. This verse was his launching pad. And, the first point of recognition......the thief will steal, kill and destroy. But hey, if you want an alternative, there is a way to get to the "abundant life." In pfal, wierwille pointedly declares.....when he looked around and SAW that non-christians were living a more abundant life than the christians. Yes, wierwille saw this. What did he SEE? He never did say, but spoke in vague generalities that "christians were not living the more abundant life." This illusive bait, with a hook in it, was.......the more abundant life that Jesus proclaimed. Session after session, the student sits in this pfal class as wierwille adds dozens of items to this shopping cart that one must do to HAVE this "more abundant life." Not surprisingly, one needs to study....rightly divide....no private interpretation....in the verse....in context....used before....punctuation....italics....dispensations.... etc. etc. to be a good workman of the word and stand approved before God. Good thing wierwille was "The Teacher." By Session 9, the pfal student is introduced to the holy spirit field and these manifestations in abundant living, i.e. walking by the spirit or spiritual abundance. At this point, all the prerequisites of walking spiritually are outlined and elaborated by wierwille. Note: more classes to follow....specifically, intermediate & advanced class. But hey......can I ask a question? No, not just that one....but a few more? You know, like in the Book of Acts, when the Apostle Paul was in prison and the Lord shook the prison walls via an earthquake and the jailer believed and released Paul.....things like that. Could you, Dr. Wierwille, specifically elaborate on a number of unique, miraculous incidents where the power of God was demonstrated? And, in pfal...... why are your weak, anemic and paltry examples so vague, so inconsequential? So......nearly eleven years in wierwille's ministry before his death AND I NEVER SAW HIM DEMONSTRATE GOD'S POWER. No signs, no miracles, no revelations, no healings..............EQUALS NO ABUNDANCE according to "his class" definition. IMO.....he didn't do what he claimed that he built his ministry on. And, I've always held to the fact that "if" wierwille would have performed some great public display of God's power.....it would have been proclaimed and shouted from the rooftops and talked about for decades!! Wierwille sold a product that he never believed in. <_<

This party-discussion is probably over.....and everyone is long gone. But just in case shiftthis happens to come back around for a drive-by..... 1) Yes, I knew Captain John Race (and Frank Cardulla) 2) No, he wasn't the "only one" to pilot Ambassador One 3) John Race abruptly left wierwille/twi in 1980 and back to his highschool girlfriend 4) Wierwille was aghast and pi$$ed when JR split out 5) No, it doesn't surprise me that JR never witnessed any sexual predation ON A PLANE 6) Miller and another pilot took charge of Ambasssador One before it was sold years later shiftthis........In June 1941, Wierwille was ordained into the Christian ministry in the Evangelical and Reformed Church in New Knoxville. On July 6, 1941....Rev. Wierwille accepted pastorate of St. Jacob's in Payne, OH. In June 1944, wierwille accepted a larger pastorate position at St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Van Wert, OH. You can read this information from Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve - pages 33,45 Wierwille's resignation letter from Van Wert Church was on August 7, 1957 --- page 215 .

Just seems like the near-deified Founder needs to blend a unique concoction of narcissism, mysticism, plagairism, occultism, exploitationism, bullsheetism, and totalitarianism. That "blend" is very hard to duplicate to the third generation.