skyrider

Yeah, sure.......one can easily be a Dayton Branch coordinator AND summoned to hq for directors' meetings, BUT that's all just window-dressing posture. Everyone knows that Rosie and Donna run the joint. I suppose it soothes the imagery and egos of these guys......but they were mostly props anyways. Obviously, Rosie has pocketed the 'votes' of every decision ahead of time and anyone who dissents knows that demotion, humiliation and shunning are just one fateful mistake away. Wierwille did the same. Who really thinks that Ermal held any sway in Vic's trustee mtgs? Martindale -- same thing. Both Rosie and Reynolds knew their place in the pecking order. To me, it seems like Rosie is trying to gently demote the vprez guys and sec/tr.....after all, twi wants to keep from hemorrhaging more leaders, and potential adversaries, if at all possible.

Mittler was demoted and stuck in that warehouse office? LOL .....that 'temporary' windowless structure put there as a backroom office during the transitional years when the OSC dining room was used for sunday services. Platig gone. Rupp gone. Is DeLisle still on staff? Where did he go?

Seems like he hasn't been able to connect the dots yet ......or simply doesn't want to. Isn't there something in scripture like that.... ..."when I was a child, I spake like a child, but when I became a man......"

Why is there a parade of twi vice presidents exiting stage left during Rosalie's tenure? After martindale's ouster in late August 2000, Rosalie sat in the big chair. If I remember correctly, Harve Pl@tig was selected as vice prez. Within a couple of years, Harve was sent on the field......and Rosalie a couple of vprez in his place? John Rupp and Roger Mittler. Anyone else? Now, John is gone. Now, Jean Yves is gone as sec/treas -- right? Isn't Tom Mullins the vice president now? And, there is a new sec/treasurer? Yet........rosalie remains. What's going on? Any transparency? Or, is all this seeeecret stuff? :B)

Twi is elitist, claiming a special status (true household) --- check Leader is considered special being, avatar (THE man of God) -- check On a special mission (teaching pfal, classes over the world) - check Quack, quack

Cool churches ?? Nerd churches ?? I gotta tell you, John......you are living in a parallel universe that few ever see. But then, if I were still following the teachings of a debunked guru of black snowstorms, maybe I'd see it too. .

Well, for me.....it wasn't an actual bonfire, but I did trash the wierwille books nearly 15 years ago. No e-bay or re-selling, nope. I didn't want to pass along this stuff to another unsuspecting soul. That "law of believing" doctrine was aligned with the occult. And, wierwille died of cancer, a devil spirit. sarc/ And, during those so-called fog years.....twi leadership spewed teachings that one could closely associate with voodoo -- i.e. "believing" for geer and cop-outs to drop dead. A good fire could make for a weiner roast, or something.

Does twi still recognize and celebrate Uncle Harry Day or equivalent? All those in-house buzzwords and made-to-order twi celebrations seem laughable today. Teach a verse, embrace its meaning, laud it above all else.......and strike up a celebration. The morphing Uncle Harry Day was one of the most bizarre. Back in the '70s, wierwille found it fitting to set aside a day to burn books and albums......things that were holding you back from "doing the word." The pilgrimage to this sunday celebration was stoked by the erection of a big bonfire, literally. Yes, a bonfire where one could toss "the evils of the world" -- books, albums, crosses, tarot cards, beatles collection, etc. -- into the fire and commended by believers of your "stand on the word." A verse in the Book of Acts was the source of this spectacle and the name changed thru the years. Burn the Ballast -- around 1975 Burn the Chaff -- 1976, 1977 Uncle Harry Day -- beginning in 1978 With Harry Wierwille's death, in the Fall of 1977, the twi-edict granted a day of recognition of Harry's birthdate and "traveling light" as a lifestyle. Being victor's older and contributing brother, Harry got special celebratory and immortal status. Be like harry, do not carry excessive baggage thru life. All the craziness of years gone by.......you gotta love it.

Yes, I plan to share my deprogramming story...... When I first sat down to compile my 10 day deprogramming episode at Wanda Wierwille's typewriter, the result was 36 pages. During this kidnapping and detainment, each day began with confrontation and I categorized and pegged these associations to memory each and every day. So, rather than having a muddled mess.....I was able to document and memorize 10-days worth of details after escape. In reading thru my report, wierwille was astounded that I had documented all this detail. No one before me had ever been able to give such detail of the names, places, deprogrammers, ex-twiers involved, books used to refute twi, etc. Much like how HCW came forth with the L.E.A.D. accident and details leading up to the corps girl's death......if recounted in full, it stirs hundreds of memories and scores of questions. This deprogramming episode changed the trajectory of my life. And, I plan to tell it. But not right now.

JJ --- check pm

No problem.

Yep.....back in 1999, I had a long phone conversation with Paul and heard the details. And, sent him a box with five-years of explicit corps meeting notes and quotes of lcm --- to help with the lawsuit against twi. Regarding the gun issue.....not sure how many people were aware of the seriousness that wierwille and martindale took to this bodyguard/security issue. The 'safety department' was ramped up with more and more paranoia thru the years and I doubt that even some staffers saw it. When I arrived back at hq from my 10 day deprogramming detainment, I stayed at Don and Wanda's house for four or five days. Then, I moved to a unit on twi grounds and THREE TIMES, late at night, the security patrol came checking on me. Apparently, there had been reports of some stranger on grounds or something. In May 1981, while I was with wierwille on his motorcoach and going over my deprogramming encounter for those 'By The Way' articles......chris geer abruptly dashed onto the motorcoach and said to wierwille, "They are on the grounds." Without another word, wierwille stood up and left with geer in his vehicle. In stunned disbelief, I was left sitting alone on wierwille's coach pondering what the he!! could be going on in their secret world. Was it a devil spirit attack? Was it an assassin? Was it the FBI? Was it the IRS? Was it a corps cop-out? Another couple minutes went by and then, I exited the motorcoach. Hmmm, that was wierd. When I look back at that time frame......NONE of the trustees sat down with me with compassion or concern. Not one of them prayed for me, or with me........after the 10 days of deprogramming detention. Even though I stayed with Don and Wanda for several days......looking back, it seems like their invitation at their house near New Knoxville's airport simply was another ploy to keep me separated from staff & corps. Every move and tactic was used to diffuse attention away from twi and onto 'the outsiders, the evil ones.' IMO......the gun guys, the 'bodyguard patrol' was like twi's inner-circle of classified information. Was there a black list? Were there threats from corps dissenters? Were there pi$$ed off husbands out there? Fast forward to November 1986 ........wierwille had been dead for over a year, geer had read his 'patriarch paper' claiming the high authority of wierwille's last will and testament, the clergy were fracturing and dissenting, and at this clergy meeting CHRIS GEER BRINGS A GUN TO THE AUDITORIUM PODIUM. .

Hey, Paul......I don't know if you ever stop and lurk here at GS, but just in case you happened by -- thank you for taking those bold steps of confronting martindale face-to-face, a confrontation witnessed by reynolds, rivenbark, and linder in the corps chalet president's office. Man, I wish there would be videotape on that! You going face-to-face with martindale and DEMANDING HIS RESIGNATION. A stern and adamant confrontation with eye-piercing directness for lcm's sexual predation on your wife. Where rosalie covered for martindale's sins and plotted her rise to twi's prez stature. Where reynolds, craig's okie-buddy, didn't have the balls to stand with paul. Where linder stood at the back and along the wall brandishing his glock handgun. No small wonder why your lawsuit against twi was settled out of court. Twi could NOT AFFORD to have all these dirty, greasy secrets spilling forth. What a bunch of gutless twits at twi's hq.

And......the "hedge trimming" is not just exclusive to twi, either. The World Wide Web has helped to open the doors and set the captives free. Discussion forums and message boards abound. Just a couple noted below: Ex-Amish.com Ex-Scientology Message Board

Craig Martindale messed with the wrong wife.......and computer-savvy husband !!! From what I remember, LCM ordered Mr. Linder to give the Allens the bums rush around March 23, 1999......and he had the Waydale site up and running three weeks later. Waydale -- derived from The Way and Martindale. Thus, the pinpointed focus, and impetus, was to "search and destroy" the way ministry and bring down martindale. Mission Accomplished. The man had been on the inside, on staff at hq and assigned to assist John Reynolds, Twi's Secretary/Treasurer, with formulating twi's website. Had martindale known the potential platform that this one man would amass, surely he would have stayed a far, far distance from this man's wife. But no......martindale wanted another female in his stable. That was his mistake. Open discussion.....where every ex-twier could come forward and share their story. Open dialogue.......where twi's secrets were aired for all the world to see. Open research.......where doctrinal threads and questioning was commonplace. Open healing........where ex-twiers opened their arms and hearts to one and all. Amazing how technology has changed the world we live in. And, threatens the survival of others. .

First of all, Hassan's primary groupings of cults involves SPHERES OF CONTROL: 1) behavior, thought, emotions, information. The dogma, or directives, of each grouping (religious, political, psychotherapy/educational or commercial) has a discernible agenda of a controlling message that attempts to marginalize and/or isolate other alternatives. Heck, any class in Psychology 101 or Marketing 101 could easily aid one's understanding in all this. The deception of twi was the presentation of one thing (rock-solid truth)....and standing on another (a foundation of sand). As years went by, many of us who applied wierwille's teachings to life, child-rearing, business, educational pursuits, marriage, etc. FOUND SINK HOLES IN HIS TEACHINGS AND THUNDER CLAPS OF AN AUTHORITARIAN HEAVY FIST. The scriptures DISQUALIFIED wierwille from an overseer in the church. He didn't meet the basic threshold of a bishop. You want a substitute, John? You want to know the alternatives? How about doing what Jesus did......not just twi's pseudo-teaching, but DOING! Teaching, praying, doing......the power of God in demonstration. Teaching about the wheat AND tares......wheat AND chaff. Not following the traditions of men, the statues of vanity. Refuting pride, arrogance and a haughty spirit. Helping people, praying and uplifting people. Living like Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Timothy, Titus, Stephen.... Men who hazarded their lives for the gospels' sake..... Each living dynamically, and uniquely, via a spirit-led calling. Some of us believed the simple truths of scripture and went forth to live it. Yet, wierwille and co. heaped burdens of vanity, idolatry and sin in our pathway. Did wierwille LOVE HIS WIFE as christ loved the church? Did wierwille tenderly care for the weak and hurt on the WOW field? or the Way Corps? Did wierwille valiantly live for the Lord......or selfishly indulge in booze, women and comforts? Did wierwille's leaders rebuke wierwille's sins and rebuke that lifestyle or embrace it? Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Rivenbark, etc.......none arose to stop the sin cycle. The choice had to be made........."As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." .

Yeah......like twi's way magazine articles weren't whitewashed 70x to remove any negative connotations. :biglaugh:/> Heck, those in twi's research department were NOT allowed to openly disagree with "wierwille research." Obviously, twi kept a vise-grip on all communication.......from research to publication. And, Walter Cvmmins wouldn't even address JS's adultery paper and research work after Geer read his "poop paper." The list of twi's indescretions is endless. The Sunday teachings are scrutinized weeks in advance of anyone standing at the big podium. Any corps grad....especially higher ranking leaders....who exited twi were slandered. Religions, politics, businesses, etc. of certain stripes are always trying to monopolize the airwaves, the internet. As a christian, I firmly believe that evil has an agenda [Eph 6:12].....and, that's just how things are. Even wikipedia has an agenda......and a competitor. Check out -- conservapedia .

waysider.....besides Greasespot (and its predecessors), what other sites allow comments and free-flow discussion of twi-involvement, experiences or doctrine? Twi-offshoots? Nope. Didn't CES have one and then, close it down? How about CFF? Or Finneg@an's outfit? Or Panarell0's? None that I know of. Didn't the innie corps guy, John Br0wn, start one and twi shut it down? How about John Riches0n's corps site? No real in-depth discussions, is there? Where else is there to unravel the mess and discuss openly? Seems like GS Cafe is a very special open forum.

Wierwille's twi was structured with NO OPEN DIALOGUE. Wierwille's pfal was cunningly calculated to AVOID ANY QUESTIONING. Wierwille's adv class was devised with REPETITIVE, POSITIVE FEEDBACK. Wierwille's corps was BOOT ON THE NECK OF ANY AND ALL DISSENTERS. Open, Honest Dialogue AND Questioning? Twi couldn't survive if OPEN DISCUSSION were allowed. <_<

Think about this.......what if there were no GreaseSpot Forums to comment? What if.....there were just opposing articles of twi-doctrine? What if, after leaving twi, you didn't have this wide-range source of opposition to twi? Do others' comments, reflections, insights, and experiences aid your recovery? Or, do these discussions appear to be rude and bitter and hyperbole? Just was wondering.......after reading this article Reader Comments .

Waysider.....yeah, I get what you're saying. As it relates to cults, twi and pfal......I can't help but see the juxtaposed irony of wierwille's pfal-claim and built-up of Session #5. The Christ-in-you segment. Had the devil known, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory...and have holy spirit in each-and-everyone-who-is-born-again-of-God's-spirit. THEN......railroad his ministry and programs diabolically opposed to individual, and spirit-led, discernment. Every class, every program, every conference was pushing "follow the leader" mentality rather than scripture. Did it take a 33-hr class to indoctrinate and set the hook so deeply that one found it very hard to escape?

Yes.....centuries and centuries old. With regards to mass-production and the capitalistic system, it seems like there was a major breakthrough around 1965 of the reel-to-reel audio/video format to VHS cassette tapes and later, or portable versions and then.....DVDs and such. Now, anyone can secure a motel/conference room and conduct seminars that have a "global scope" approach. Back in 1990, I attended an NSA meeting designed on MLM techniques and health/environmental issues. When the meeting started, they immeadiately shut the doors, the lights went down and the 40-minute video was to entice and captivate one's attention and buy-in to this "opportunity." With another 20 minutes of live testimony, the four "marketers" were quick to work the attendees before they walked out. It was a "sign-up" to get involved at the ground level of this new market. Of course, I thought clean water and air filtration was important......but, was I willing to invest $5,100 to market their product and get in on this "ground level opportunity" of this MLM product? NO. PFAL was filmed at an opportunist point of a/v format and advancement. "Take the Class" was the clarion call at the time......and, 33-hrs later, the student had the answers to the more abundant life. Hahahahaha....its all so surreal to think back on those days. But hey, at least I didn't get caught up in following Charles Manson's lead.

On another thread, the cult issue surfaced once again. Of course, it does......we were discussing the manipulative, coercive and exploitive techniques that twi used (and uses) to entrap their recruits. And, waysider noted how not all cults are religious in nature. Apparently, others agree with that assessment: Is this guy just trying to sell more books? Or, is this 'cult cancer' spreading throughout society and captivating the masses? Religion, politics, education workshops, commercial gurus.........THE ENLIGHTENED ONES (cough, cough) are "leading the uneducated" to a more, meaningful life and calling. It makes life meaningful. Separate truth from error. Answers to your prayers and heart-yearnings. A more abundant life. Be very, very careful out there. Cults are designed to control 1) Thought 2) Behavior 3) Information 4) Emotions 5) Dependence

Good post, WW Detailing and countering point-by-point. Thanks. Especially.....these points:

In her dreams. Within the past 10 years, I've crossed paths with 'innies' and so-called friends who still are beholden to twi's doctrine and local fellowships. And, in conversation, when they ask me why I left and I expose the deception, fraud, and exploitation....nearly EVERY ENCOUNTER, they then say, "Well, I could CARE LESS about what they do over there in Ohio. My local fellowship is where my 'needs are met." It truly is laughable.