rhino

The message to the rest of TWI was whitewashed ... "all is well here on Gawd's little green acre ... keep sending money ... and more young women." Some still believe it is God's one true ministry ... but I am thankful for those that did what they could at the time. Hopefully most are mostly recovered, though life does leave some scars. Have a nice day ...

Dot, your story on the other thread was that one of these victims was sent to get other witnesses/victims, and they were gathered with the intent of confronting. The confidentiality was not an issue then. Or do I remember that incorrectly? The number thirteen comes to mind ... victims/witnesses willing to confront. Here is part of what I asked then, since the false quote above is being repeated, despite me pointing out it is false ... (not to mention the other derisive commentary) what did he find out? if he found out about rapes and illegal activities (abusing the flock with sexual predation) ... and went out and comforted a few people ... ummm.. yes... I am a piece of work. What do you mean "confronted people" ... I heard about a murder ... and I confronted some people, and comforted the families ... and the murderer was still murdering My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement in certain cases, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion for this or other potential victims. We don't really have a time frame for these events ... but these "actionable" abuses continued ... I don't know what professional, therapeutic relationships were actually ongoing, but it seems they all ended abruptly when the "counselor" decided to leave HQ. I'm quite aware of the bond of trust between some counselors and their patients ... I deal with one person on a daily basis that is quite dependent on her various aides, and has been for thirty years. I don't think that type relationship is the real issue here ... at least not in a positive way. Leaving Don out of this, how many new victims were sent to the corps during these years/decades when victims were being comforted or shuffled out the door, and a cadre of false comforters were nursing the victim's wounds, "in house"? Sure there is a need for real counseling ... but there is also a greater need to at some point end systematic abuse. That doesn't seem to have happened till VP was gone. There were no heroes. It was a cult. If Dottie was professionally counseling people that were suffering ongoing abuse, and was aware of the ongoing pattern of abuse ... in the bigger picture, were her patients (and other victims) being healed? This decades long practice of abuse was hopefully, mostly ended when lcm was brought before civil authorities. John Lynn said ... Why didn't I speak up before this? Because I didn't really see these things until early in 1987 when I finally began to wake up from the slumber of "group-think" mentality. I apologize for not doing so long ago. Hopefully this clears up my real concerns ... and my opinion will not be deleted.

After POP ... thinks fell apart quickly ... people that didn't tow the party line were ousted, and it seems THEN they went on with their own thing. The desire to stay in the cult was very strong ... and I believe there was/is a huge amount of rationalization in trying to explain why we didn't leave sooner ... or help victims leave or get real help or stop abuse. Here is what John Lynn said in 1988 ... Why didn't I speak up before this? Because I didn't really see these things until early in 1987 when I finally began to wake up from the slumber of "group-think" mentality. I apologize for not doing so long ago. I believe that is right ... a slumber ... a group think mentality ... it was a cult. Actions taken while in that slumber were always dictated by the power of cult think. Of course there are a hundred ways to rationalize, but the cult took priority over individuals. People were still role playing ... their whole identity was TWI ... how could they walk away ... how could they let the ministry be harmed ... it was Gawd's ministry ... they were God's elite muckety mucks. Most even after POP, stayed around trying to save the ministry ... it was a cult ... nobody was thinking very clearly ... as I see it ... the deeper you were in, the deeper the delusion and long term harm.

yes ... there are good and bad in both ... check for credentials and get references ... but I do think people can get too reliant on a "shrink", and the counselor might. But no ... TWI was a whole 'nuther animal ... heh ... np ... I was thinking of one guy from one place on the site with a similar story. But I guess it sounded like I was talking about the same guy.

What is the difference between a light bulb and a pregnant woman? ??????? You can unscrew a light bulb ...

Good points Bramble ... So a group of witnesses/victims get together and confront the church leader ... what next? This is partly a carry over from another discussion ... but in general, when there is serious damage happening, telling your minister or cult leader is probably not adequate. And if the minister/cult leader assistants "counsel" you to not go to authorities, they will handle this, that may be a bad sign and a false comfort. The truth is the government (at least in the US) still functions and is the place to go when there is a serious problem. By taking them out of the process (and making that doctrine) ... it did indeed set up tyranny. My point is the law is (and always was) there in the chain of command ... Don's thread is more that licensed health care professionals are required to help with serious matters, not some young buck feigning some special powers via laying on of unholy hands ... (my editorializing) I do see value in Christian structures however, just not in isolated tyrannical pseudo Christian cults ... so much. Christian ministers or just fellow Christians or good neighbors can offer much in social support. Of course there is also MTV and gangster rap ... and video games and the internet ... to raise the children and set standards. So I'm not too big on giving government or their minions too much control over private groups. They provide more of a protect and defend role. I really can't say that there is anything wrong with some folks I know in Chicago holding their home fellowship ... they seem smart and competent, and I doubt they would stand for abuse. Psychotherapy is not necessarily a good journey either, and could be its own cult, as professionals endeavor to retain their clients and lead them on some dark journey into some hidden past.

No ... I said I wanted the attack on me that said I make things up deleted, because my response was deleted. I showed I was not making it up ... it got deleted while the false attack remained. I said then that attack should be deleted ... you deleted the whole thread. I mentioned the other flaming as it showed partiality... and said I didn't care about it. That flaming actually helped expose part of the problem.

I'm the person that was misquoted from a censored thread, and attacked in Don's opening treatise ... recently, on another thread, someone demanded to know why i did'nt just "call the cops"?, rather than resort to "just" comforting the wounded? how utterly shallow and compassionless a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose willful ignorance of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty lack of sincere concern for the If the thread was not censored, I could show what I really said. I was also told I make things up on that thread, when I showed that was not true, my response was censored, but the false accusation remained. Then finally the hole thread (about how there is little censorship here) was deleted. These actions are too reminiscient of how other inconvenient truths are handled in cult worlds. I was also flamed on that thread ... and since most know about that thread, they know who Don is referring to here ... so I might as well say so. I was also in the corps ... And when someone with an eating disorder came to me ... I counseled them ... by telling them they needed to seek a real professional. I performed one wedding, I counseled them by giving them a couple books ... I said I couldn't do marriage counseling. I sent a couple alcoholics to AA. I never pretended to be a real counselor, and doing so without real training is probably another grave injustice that might be addressed in this context. Serious issues of rape or abuse need real counseling ... illegal activity requires legal action. the role of executives was to deal with management of a large organization ... Given the power of the cult, I have no idea if I could have acted correctly in the same situation ... blame for what happened then is not the issue ... learning what should be done in CFF or TWI or scientology or the catholic church ... NOW ... is the point.

Well it does sound callous ... it is hard to be brief but make the point that seems to be stepping on toes. I think we do have the answer on what to do. The Prince Valiants that left, often took others with them, and put more doubt in those that stayed and listened to the "they were possessed" rap. The guy that did the astronomy work for The Promised Seed even made an impression, just hearing his comments even indirectly through Craig. And since we are in the NOW with the internet, there should be room for another "other side of the story". I guess I'm not allowed to bring up another Christian group that scolded their ministers for bad/criminal behavior ... but allowed the practices to continue till they were finally taken to court.

My point about people on the field still sending money and people to this cesspool ... is that there were other victims ... there was a need to be honest with them as well. How many were sent into the corps after this was revealed to senior management? What is the correct response if this happens to an honest man in a senior management position in a cult today? Women come to him ... ready to confront their mog ...

If this is a case study .... I think it should go beyond trying to evaluate DWBH or anyone ... the point is for people is similar situations NOW. They google and find this incident. What should the GSC message be ... on the way to be a hero in your cult, when abuse/crimes are reported to you ... especially if you are in a position of authority.. Of course we were young, woefully unprepared, inadequate ... and programmed ... but given 20/20 hindsight ... what is the right response for those still enslaved in a cult? I believe it is REQUIRED of professional counselors to contact authorities if crime/harm is ongoing or imminent. But it doesn't seem people were just exposing this to get counseling, they were going to a TWI executive to get it stopped. They even went and got other witnesses/victims with the intent of confronting the offender/criminal.

In that other long thread ... I had other thoughts ... as did others ... all gone now, nice and tidy. I don't believe I ever "blamed" anyone ... except maybe vpw. I said there were no heroes. Some did more than others. Don probably did much more, I really don't know. BUT ... whoever was in authority then, when someone came to them with these accusations, it seems they need action ... counseling also ... Dot came out and said one was told to get the claims verified with others and they got thirteen I think. They weren't all coming for group counseling, were they? No, I can't say I would have done more or as much ... I have no idea. A friend , his wife and I met on "ho ho break" briefly and talked about a bunch of screwy things with the corps program. I said the only honest things to do was quit or try to change them. (not illegal or sexual stuff) I never really did that, I just continued on mostly. But the other guy did .. after a long list of things ... Lynn just joked "so how do you like what we're doing with Allen Gym". Icebreaker I guess ... but nothing changed, and I continued for 5 years and that friend was ordained and carried on. So I guess the point for then and more for now, is just "confronting" is not enough. We trash these other groups like CFF with v2p2 ... but people in those groups should be aware that "confronting" their new MOG on things is not enough. They should not do as most/all of us did the first time around ... and just let the bad stuff continue. Actually I think CES did take action when one of their mini mogs was too ggressive with their flock. I even got the letter and I was not ever involved in CES. I'd think people want to get info here, on how to deal with these nefarious activities in their current cult. Isn't that the point of GSC? Telling them that the right action was to protect relationships and comfort more and more victims ... is wrong. Maybe Don has more honesty in his little pinky than I will ever have ... I don't know. But that (from the censored thread) sounds morelike bravado in protecting an idol. Or saying that he stood on the track for us all ... for us all. I belieive he got off track, though he did try more than others ... I guess. Which is why I think the honest answer, to why the abuse (and apparently crimes) continued even after being reported to a ministry executive... is that it was a cult ... which is what I say in the opening of this thread. As mstar said ... what a mental cluster eff ..HQ was at the time ... no doubt. I'm not blaming anyone for not saving the whole thing ... but "the ministry" was held above regard for the individual. There was no prince valiant. And I never said "why didn't you just call the cops" ... I never claimed it was easy or simple ... but in the ended continued harm needed to be stopped, and it wasn't till lcm was taken before government authorities. Should have happened much sooner. but that thread is censored ... yet I'm being misquoted from it ... sheesh ... But the principle here is a lesson for people in cults in the present ... it is not enough to just confront your MOG ... revising a central story to the old history does NOT help make that point. It encourages folks to just maybe confront and comfort the victims, but never stop the activity. It may make you feel a little better, but it is not the stopping point. I'm writing because I also have concern for people in cults NOW ... and rationalizing any inaction in the past just blurs the message. Also, any in the present that still tend to look for a new master, don't need to be glorifying their old mogs ... that is a separate issue that just seems yuchy ... not that anyoneis asking for that ... yuchy ...

There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary. I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ... This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight. Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.

Too bad that thread on how there is little censorship at GSC got completely censored ... all 350 or so posts. But that is not what I said. But I did say, in the end, that was the ONLY right thing to do. Keeping it in the household was wrong ... nothing stopped ... I said I understood, given the cult dynamics, that protecting the movement of the word and the ministry took priority. ... I copied some of those pages, maybe I can pull up a more accurate quote. I guess I'm still shallow ... what in the world do you mean ... what professional or therapeutic relationships would have been harmed if vic had been taken to court? None of those people were willing to testify .. with some exhortation? What of the thirteen that got together to confront vp? So let the abuse continue for years ... with the rationalization of protecting what exactly? Relationships? I'm detecting gross denial ... that is what I think .. so far ... Mark? Care to comment? Just bill GSC ...

Well gee, maybe Mark could chime in ... I lived with him for a year ... hi Mark .. still strummin' ? So abuse ... rape ... drugging ... a victim comes to a minister? counselor? or corporate official is more accurate I think ... with problems/crimes of sexual abuse ... or any criminal allegation. Even a professional counselor, I think, would be required to notify authorities ... about the commission of a crime. It is not even the patient that is being protected (by withholding knowledge of criminal activity) ... but the higher up in the corporate entity. And if an assault has occurred and there is evidence of continued assaults ... and more ... it seems it is gross negligence/complicity to not contact authorities ... crimes continued ... but there is an excuse of relationships to be protected? This is denial and avoidance that hopefully would not happen to a professional, as I see it. Any excuse of "it's complicated" or "you don't understand the dynamics" does not hold water. The other relationships that were protected was the exact problem ... friends, relationships, holding the corporation together ... took priority over stopping criminal activities. A professional would have understood that ... I believe. And the people "on the field" were not informed. "Please keep sending us your money .... and your children ... all is well" Nice ... real nice. I don't care what counseling book you were reading ... that was wrong.

That sounds right ... for da way corpse ... it only takes 2 or 3 ... 2 working light maintenance to see the bulb 40' above the podium those two to get the tall weak ladder ... one moron to hold the ladder .. one bigger moron to climb straight up ... with the ladder balanced by the other one guitar man to show up ... say "oh my effin gawd" and help moron number one hold the ladder I won't say which moron I was ... but I thank Dan Mor*n for his support ... LOL

Even when problems became evident ... we were trained to keep it in house ... this kept those that observed malicious activities from going "too far" ... the higher powers were the ministry .... not the government. It was a pretty powerful teaching from vpw ... "Billy Graham ... the hell with him ..." cuz Billy taught government was the higher power. But this post isn't doctrinal .. it is just that we believed that .. going to authorities was not an option. The highest power was the MOG. Sins or even crimes ... were down played ... the ministry must not be blamed ... the "movement of the Word" was at stake. Going to a worldly organization to deal with "household matters" was not an option. In the end, even good people submitted to this belief. Abuse ... rape ... fraud ... alcoholism ... and worse ... decent people that found out ... still kept it "in the household". I suppose the "lock box" fits here also ... There were no heroes ... bad people did bad things ... good people did something ... but still submitted. Even if crimes were committed ... it had to be kept in the household ... the integrity of "da wuhrd" was at stake. VP had control ... till he died ... all submitted. Those that left were not able to break the household. Others did something, but stayed under the TWI umbrella ... while no doubt feeling sick at the ugliness they observed. My alphabetical buddy .. no doubt completely pure, observed the "nastiness" of vp as personal *** ... she cried and said her and the bus driver supported each other ... but she soldiered on ... THE WORD must live on ... there was control ... Some still seem to be trying to live the "dream" ( a new way corps? ... leaders that fully participated that have started their own variaton) ... some can't admit they were hooked and watched as heinous acts continued ... some recognize they were had ... and want to expose the continuation of cult like groups (while recognizing they were had, and will always be a survivor?) best to realize and not let it continue .... peace to those that testify to those events with a clear mind, or a more clear mind ... (I'm saying there are still picadillos that pop up .. maybe for the rest of our lives) the many that lived there while VP ruled with an iron hand .. dictated the results of their "research" ... or ruled their actions ... I guess they missed it also ... like those that noticed women going to the coach late but never could add two plus two. It was some variance of suspended disbelief ... it was a cult ... just sayin' ... no supermen ... mostly victims ...

Before we get too far off track ... Rocky suggested pm'ing a new person, to inform them not to respond to the "alleged troll". My point was that that was a bad idea. individuals should not wage a private pm war against people they decide are trolls ... being a troll is not allowed, so if the person is not banned ... on this site ... they are NOT a troll. If the mods decide to let a real troll persist ... that is a problem the site will be burdened with. Their choice.

You're saying the "apologists" are pm'ing people about people they want silenced? If the rules are clear, then you abide by them or the moderators ban you. That IS my answer. Not a private pm'ing campaign against those that have NOT been banned. That is harassment or slander or whatever. If they are not banned, report to the moderator ... don't be a vigilante. Maybe you have a completely wrong perspective ... or maybe the site owners want to allow some things ... and not others .. or favor some, and slam others. In any case, it is up to them.

I disagree ... if there is someone you think is a troll ... you don't reply to them (you don't feed "the troll"). But if you go around pm'ing or trashing someone privately because you decide they are a troll ... that may just be hate mail. An organized effort by a few to do that may mean a few are subverting the power/authority/desires of the people actually running the site. Complain to the mod's ... it is their place ... they should police the trolls. If they do not, then they must have decided this is not troll like behavior for their site. That would mean that an organized effort by one or a few, to trash people by pm, just because you don't like what they are saying ... would be an underhanded or silent attack on that person. That seems wrong. and sending hateful pm's to the "troll" may not help either. If you are going to bother pm'ing ... might as well try to reach out to him and be understanding a little ... if the owners of the site have not declared this person's actions wrong ... why send them hate mail? Maybe you are the problem ....

The moon landing was fake ... don't you guys know nuthin'? Peter Beater said so ...

Nice shots Ron ... nice hills around your place ... do you have a vista view from your house? I guess you used fill flash for that cute gal pic. That's a nice simple option even on the cheap digital cameras, and it seems to help a lot of shots when the background is brighter than the foreground. Really nice light on that shot. I'll give you the Rhino Award for that shot. But you'll have to send 29.95 plus S&H for the plaque.

I guess the thread is closing ... you have not addressed one of my points .. you have made more ad hominem attacks The "I don't get it" means I think I do get it, but I'm open for a better explanation .. which you have not offered. Please learn how to quote people ...

Abi and Paw ... no ... more and more is becoming public which is OK ... I'm saying some things seem "fabricated" to me .. and that should not be public, so I replied with more detail. Trash talk has always been against my rules ... ask my volleyball league people ... :o He did not make a threat. I don't think he is of tiny social worth or a liar. Bumpy wanted me to defend him on several points since it became public ... I said it was public because you (bumpy) pushed jonny to make it public ... so that was no deal .. :) I'm drinking beer now, so this is as good as it gets (ask my bar volleyball league people ... trash talkers suffered badly, we're supposed to have fun here) oh, the public trashing after the fact ... not referring to paw ... till the "threat" post came up. Mostly referring to the non staff stuff. I think the nasty rock star pm proceeded the out of the blue thing. WW was just surmising. But the threat claim was just wrong. I think. So I made it public ... the facts ... just the facts maam ... beers all around ... then we can talk some more ...

No, I am not ... I told you but I also had mentioned to him that would sound like a threat ... he doesn't really ask my advice ha ... and I told him, before your reply about notifying the appropriate authorities ha .. are you planning to box with WW in NYC? or just chat it out with him? Paw will take this as a threat I imagine... It was not a threat, but an opportunity for you to take it as a threat ... that is how the game is played, right? I don't want to have to ever handle this stuff, and as I have said, I supported the ban ... BUT .. it seems to have gotten a little personal ... and the publicly trashing him after the fact seems wrong. Maybe it could have been passed to Jim or someone not directly involved. Still, if he was warned several times, fine, do what you need to do ... no need to fabricate stuff for public consumption ... adding ... and you took his "demand" as a threat? His "demand" that you ask WW to meet him in NYC at a certain date? What kind of threat is that? More like a request for a direct confrontation ... since he is silenced here ... I still think worthless ...liar ... are close to slander ... throw some dirt on the little stuffed tiger ... ha ... adding again .. I posted above before seeing Jim's reply ... I do think bumpy had another "mission" to disrupt what he saw as people too stuck in trashing these other groups ... I agreed in a sense that we do not know much about some ... but this is not a good approach .... as I said .. I agreed with the ban ... maybe Bumpy saw some he knew trashed too much, I don't know. Still the after the fact "slander" is "unpresidential". Bumpy's more direct commentary with me and even paw lately would make better discussion than trying to be more subversive, if that's what it was. He contributed in some threads ... I think he went to bezerkly, so that may explain it ...