rhino

I think you were clear, I was agreeing ... others disagreed. Don said ... during the 24 years since may, 1984, i have spent thousands of hours with hundreds of people whom these men, and an unfortunately long list of other twi "leaders" have hurt, damaged, and destroyed during their careers as "christian leaders"! these have been hours spent in developing and protecting professional, therapeutic relationships with fellow human beings who still wear the scars and bear the burdens of the profound betrayal suffered at the hands of these sexual and "spiritual" predators! i choose not to betray the confidences of those who trust and expect me to keep confidential, the deeply personal information they have shared with me during these 24 years, in their desperate attempt to somehow make sense of what they experienced and endured. You don't know what responses I'm getting. It is simple .... I quoted what Don himself said his state was at the time. And so given that, how can I blame him? He was on the edge ... he needed out, he did not want to deal with it, nor was he able to deal with it. He did what he should have as an executive and talked to VP and Howard ... and they let him know that was the end of the matter. I believe the rest was Don in a cult, in survival mode. People were being controlled by a fanatical, cruel abuser ... but that was allowed to continue while some symptoms were treated. This is just putting band aids on the cuts ... but the victimization continued. I don't consider that non-treatment to be real professional therapeutic counseling. It was in house cult false comfort. It continued in house, secret from the 99% of TWI on the field, mostly till after the yak twig. Till then The Way Tree chain of command was still in effect. So that was four to six years .. a long time to feed the beast, as I said. I don't blame Don for not breaking free ... he described his mental state. I strongly disagree with his portrayal of the event as being anything like professional counseling ... the boss was allowed to continue abusing the employees for the whole time ... band aids were applied to the wounds. I don't know what professional therapeutic counseling was done for the next 20 years ... Don has not shown any professional credentials. It appears more like the back and forth that happens here at GSC. So I don't get why he has this emphasis on all his professional therapy ... given his assessmet of his state then, and some of the outbursts I pointed out, it seems he is like everyone else that was duped ... needing the professional help ... As I stated, those most in were most harmed ... but I still see outbursts that are less than civil ... not just here. So I am judging the situation and the reactions here ... that is what we do all the time. He misquoted and judged me .... I think I am more fair and more civil ... but flat out disagree with the band aid therapy that was going on. It looks pretentious to me, to claim that was some professional therapeutic relationship ... it was fellow abused victim bonding, with the backdrop of being a TWI rockstar ... and a key player in the gas pump fantasy, with thousands of supporters around the world. GLORY DAYS .... on the one hand ... turmoil on the other. Cognitive dissonance. Keeping the victims under the control of the maniac, and failure to inform the 99% of the ministry ... but rather painting everything as fine while those drunk liars sent drunk thieves and abusers out as leaders to ruin people's lives on the field ... I have to strongly disagree with those actions. And I disagree with any revisionist history ... that professional therapy was ongoing, while this maniacal mad doctor carried on ... with all his henchmen. Somehow AFTER Don was kicked out of the yak ... then the word got out. So it was possible to get the word out ... but till people left TWI, that action seemed out of line. They were still submissive to The Way Tree ... even when it was the bus driver. As waysider and others said .. we were all duped ... sure it is easier to see now ... but I prefer an honest history of events. Don certainly does have a lot to say though ... but history has many viewpoints ...

I suppose VP had his gang of higher powers ... my point was more that there are government authorities to go to, if these nuts get too far out of line. I don't know what correct Bible doctrine is ... I suppose in the old testament you could find some lone MOGs ... But The Way Tree was about chain of command ... and obedience to the leaders all the way to the bottom ... this kept the servants/soldiers in line. If you wanted to advance or even avoid persecution, you had to submit, and pressure others to fall in line. And then of course VP became untouchable ... because HE had the rev from Gawd ... snow on the pumps direct promise. "Minor indiscretions" had to be overlooked ... at least they were minor compared to his heavy duty of saving the whole world. Victims especially needed to be removed from that environment. I sure hope your friends were not subjected to the same intimidations and threats ... I just can't imagine current TWI being as cold as VP lcm days, though their doctrines are probably no better.

And from the perspective of one "on the field", where 99% of TWI was ... why in the world were top leaders continuing to let the 99% be wagged by the TWI HQ tail, when these "leaders" were judged as this type people? ... so i again would be in the BRC with a room full of liars, adulterers, drunks, serial sexual predators, thieving, weasel bastards!........more confusion, isolation, depression, fear of future gloom and doom What a representation of the "more than abundant life". I think the 99% that supported that little HQ Peyton Place deserved more honest representation ... to continue to send these types out to lord over the "faithful" seems itself a gross dereliction of duty ... I guess I just don't GET IT. Yet some of those very people are the ones running ministries today ... I would want actual video of the scales falling from their eyes before I would listen too much to any of them. But just what was that group think mentality that revered HQ so highly, and the little "leaf" so lowly ... that sending the above quoted group of people out as "leaders" was somehow godly? Was it just one big power struggle ... man ... that in itself could be a doctoral study.

We all make judgments all the time ... we judge people, especially in regards to how we want to associate with those people. In other threads these other men from other splinter groups are being trounced for their lack of sincerity ... or their adherence to doctrines that VP stole from other men ... or their past knowledge of or participation in misconduct of all sorts. Since when has the refusal to judge been the gold standard at GSC? Based on some of my statements that were uncomfortable to some in the deleted thread ... and then grossly misquoted in the opening of this thread, I was harshly judged as "utterly shallow and compassionless" ... "willfully ignorant" ... "haughty and lacking sincere concern" and having no concept of professional, therapeutic blah blah blah .... ha ... Talk about using this bully pulpit for personal vindication ... it happens all the time here in these hallowed greasy halls. This is more mosh pit than a place for serious professional discussions of the health care profession. This person does not know me or much about me ... this is the internet, and I generally have low regard for "flamers", so I find the pretense of civility insincere, becasue of this and other attacks on me and others. But I do know some of the history of trunk from many other people ... bullying and sexual misconduct, threats and intimidation, were common, VP ruled. but Don sums up part of his thinking, at least as he reviews it now. ... so i again would be in the BRC with a room full of liars, adulterers, drunks, serial sexual predators, thieving, weasel bastards!........more confusion, isolation, depression, fear of future gloom and doom........what about all those patients???........who's gonna be there for them........who will provide their last, desperate hope for help and healing?........who's gonna come after me and my family???..........sorry folks!.......the best i could do was to refuse to stay at hq any longer..........the best i could come up with at that time of total confusion, doubt and fear was........"i gotta get back out on the field, please!"........i can't handle it here any more!........let me go back to ny........i just wanna move the word"!................i never asked to know this stuff!........why am i stuck with it?.........more importantly, what can i do about it??? Try as he might have, he was in no mental state to be capable to offer sound therapeutic counseling. He just wanted to "move the Word". It seems "release from his prisons" (and his family) was top priority ... good for him. These were Don's words, but they probably describe many that needed real counseling ... they need OUT. As for the last desperate hope for health and healing of these patients ... I'm thinking they should have left like Don ... so I still don't see how they were really top priority. It seems they needed to leave their job with the abusive boss in the intimidating cult ... first and foremost. Then perhaps go to a legit' counselor that was NOT in the cult. So I still don't quite get all these 24 years Don spent in "professional therapeutic counseling" with these ex culties ... while he was trying to recover himself. My free counsel is to not get counseled by someone that is not professionally trained and that is probably still recovering from the state quoted above. Don was a fellow victim ... (see above quote) We judge and discuss our views and offer opinions. T-Bone makes sense to me ... he read, got "educated", and found someone that could help think things through. And as he said earlier ... that was impossible from within the main source of the problem ... TWI. The most important point I see is that even when going for help, T-Bone seemed in control of his direction ... getting help does not mean turning everything over to our counselor any more than we should have turned anything over to the "man of gawd". I previously used the example of the abusive family, and we acted as though it was the big brother or mother, comforting the child or sister endure the continuing abuse of the father. But we were adults ... this was not a real family situation, it was more an employee/boss problem. I believe removing the "patient" from the source of the problem was not done only because the "professional counselors" were in the cult ... they prioritized the "move of the Word" ... and in their mind that still meant VP was the man of God. It was "a family, together we stand" ... VP as Father in da wuhrd ... mankind's freedom seemed at stake. None were of sound mind to counsel ... as removing a person from that abusive boss was never counseled or done. It seems that keeping the person inside "VP's household" was a priority. And of course that is much clearer now than it was then ... Don is chief at pointing out the inadequacies of VP doctrine, as well as VP himself ... yet at that point he wanted to just go move the Word. The "root problem" was not being addressed, it was actually being reinforced. Endure the abuse for the sake of the Word ... that the ministry be not blamed ... yuch ... so clear now. I can't judge whether I would have done more or less ... I can't imagine I would have let abuse continue, knowing how systemic the problems were ... but inside HQ world, brains were quite twisted under the heat and pressure ... which is maybe why I was not there in the first place. But I will disagree with actions that were taken ... but given Don's paragraph above, if that is at all accurate, I can hardly blame Don. Despite his position of power, it was clear there were higher powers running the show.

Backing away from the Biblical definitions ... it seems simple enough that the more systematic and premeditated the abuse of power is, the more "wicked" it becomes. The more willing someone in power is to ride roughshod over those he "controls" ... the more "evil" he is. In TWI it seemed some advanced by bringing in more people/revenue ... some were more like thugs/enforcers. We've already pretty much judged vp ... but what of his power structure? Did LCM just follow blindly along ... maybe he failed because he was not quite smart enough or ruthless enough to be really dedicated to destroying his challengers. But he seemed willing to take advantage of people ... I don't know, but I think he is better off now ... (though he doesn't seem to get what he did wrong, from what we hear) There were all levels ... and many seemed like great guys ... just don't get in their way. VP had his gang around him for support, and challengers were dealt with as if it was the Devil challenging God himself. So were the adulterers that did not quite force themselves on their flock less guilty? What about the guys at trunk that just pulled women's tube tops down, all in good fun ... or bullied people a little, but with the best of intentions? Are there lines not crossed that made some yes men less "evil"? I don't know ... but our judicial system is set up to judge wrong ... and it would judge people in more authority more harshly. The more premeditated, the worse the crime. The less the consideration for the victims, the more brutal the act. The deceit of using a minister position to take advantage of young women is perhaps the most heinous act. The actions at the top in TWI were premeditated, systematic, deceitful and cruel ... and except for a little trouble with his denomination, it seems vp got away with it all ..I can't imagine any old wayfers being able to match him ...

Here is the preview ... Inside a Cult It might be the most sinister and secretive cult ever! The group has a history of sex with children, seduction and even suicide. We pull back the curtain on The Family International. Has the sect changed its ways? Those who were members talk. Tonight, 9 pmET! Email Your questions. iReport.com: Send your questions in an I-Ask video email! Do you know anyone who has been in a cult? Yes 27% No 73% This is not a scientific poll I bet most people do know ex culties ... they just don't know about them ... where was Larry King when we needed him? :o

I know a few elders in different churches ... If any one of them was approached by a woman in the congregation even once, with allegations of sexual misconduct by their minister, their would be a full investigation. Imagine several such incidents in the church, where the victims were just given counseling ... it seems completely incredulous to me. Apparently even the professional counselors at TWI were in the cult ... and it seems they too were compliant to VP's structure, and I just don't believe all possible recourse or action was taken ... There are shelters for women ... was there no place to take these women ... was there no way to introduce laws, bylaws, oversight? These activities continued for vp's whole ministry it appears ... subjection to VP trumped all else. The Way Tree worked ... exec's reported to VP ... and if he didn't want to discuss it, it did not get discussed. He had the final say ... he was the highest power. Instead there was some counseling, which was apparently VP approved. People went in needing surgery, and got amateur counseling on dealing with abuse. A few people were trying out some new counseling theories ... leaving the abusive cult was not an option. But that was better than those that got told them to suck it up .. or that got shipped out. I wonder what checks and balances ... or bylaws .. are in place now at TWI, after lcm's demise? Tonight's Larry King should be interesting ... how does the abuse in these other cults get exposed?

I'm not concerned with pointing fingers ... twenty years ago is a long time, or maybe ten for some. But for any in any sort of abusive situation ... or threatened with intimidation ... finding a shelter from the abuse would be much better than being comforted while enduring continued domination and abuse. The Way (especially root locations) seemed more like a large abusive home, where maybe the big brother tried to protect/help the younger abused sister. Or the wife saw the sexual abuse of the daughter but could not report it or leave. So instead they do what they can for each other, while the Father continues with his reign of terror. reminds me a little of that movie Good Will Hunting ... "Robin Williams" finally reaches Will and tells him ..."It's not your fault" for things that occurred years earlier. It seems many are still in denial of the wrongs that occurred, others hold various levels of guilt. The sooner an individual got out, the better. Those most closely associated with the oppression/abuse were harmed the most. I won't try to rank who was most harmed, or who tried hardest to help ... many worked very diligently at something ... maybe mostly actions of denial or rationalization. Many left or were booted out if they were "trouble". I suppose there were some attempts from the outside at interventions. Even after VP died it took some time for things to unwind, as various "leaders" started carving each other up to make their own niche, and major fault lines were revealed ... finally. Till then it was all mostly kept hidden to most, even some right at HQ.

yeah ... what excie said ... how does being chosen by the great molester qualify anyone for anything? So if you got ordained by submitting to or having sex with vp .. does that mean all that had sex with vp are "qualified" to respond in this "health care thread"? And how does that relate at all to the real health care professional world? TWI clergy are infamous for abuse ... though some may have tried to help, DESPITE their TWI training. My non professional training would say if you are getting abused, get away from the abuser. There are even ads for hotlines to reports abuse now ... it is not always easy. It does NOT seem to me Dot went to any of those "clergy" or TWI execs for counseling, she went to report abuse ... and get it stopped. Because clergy were submissive to vp and howard ... none were able or willing to stop anything ... instead they offered some "comfort" or just laughed her off. Don's opening post discussed the turmoil in his life when he asked vp and howard and both refused to answer his questions. THAT is what this thread is about. Where do you go next? Don said he did not believe the first report ... but at some point he believed ... Why would TWI clergy be especially qualified to discuss therapeutic relationships from TWI daze? The first post was about how unqualified they were. Or why is current health care even vaguely related to what was occurring in the hotbed of TWI HQ, where threats and intimidation kept people from being released from sexual abuse and from leaving an abusive cult? Submission to the cult was the overriding problem, and that issue was not dealt with .. because the counselors had the same affliction. There was known criminal behavior/gross abuse of power ... yet this "professional counseling" went on for six years ... with no real attempts to extract the victims or new victims from the source of damage? These "professional counselors" were still dedicated followers of the abuser in chief ... it just doesn't add up to me ... it all seems to be just a way of keeping the victims placated enough to not leave or go to higher powers. What exactly they were counseled to do remains a mystery ... but it seems they were NOT advised to leave or confront ... at least that is not how they acted. It seems a sham to me, to say that those that were "allegedly" being raped and abused were receiving professional therapeutic counseling the whole time. Only a counselor that would get them away from their abuser could be called competent to counsel. If the counselors still believed "The Way" was God's way, and placed that priority above the well being of "their patient", they were not really competent to counsel. They were in a cult ... and still submissive to VP ... and still covering his tracks ... whether that was the best they could muster or not ... (oh, well excie deleted hers, great ... well ... that's OK) anyway ... as T-Bone said, the problem could not be fixed while people were still lost in the cult, blind leading the blind. and as JeffSo says, it may be helpful to recognize past mistakes ... staying in and keeping abused people in the abuse was NOT therapeutic. At least that is what appears abundantly clear to me ... Maybe ann c has the answer ... she was a good RN ... and a good soul (with a good laugh) ... hope she is well.

Well the deprogrammers must have thought it started in the twig ... we had one young woman taken before she had piffle ... of course that was southern WV ... where there had some local deprogrammers ... or maybe it was out of respect for me ... my fellow corpse twiggee Sheela toe knee was part of it ... ha ... I don't think her family had money, so maybe it was a promotional deprogramming ... years later another young gal was taken shortly after she had piffle ... but she was in our "way home". Maybe they figured it was better to get them early ... it was a little more difficult to zap them out of da corpse ... but yeah, the AC did put one in deeper into the secret society ... that is where you had special knowledge that only other special people knew. And after that God would speak directly to you .... But every step of The Way was a caste system ... keep sending money in for those classes if you want to be hip ....

A word I used in describing some of the cult actions to someone else the other day ... was sublimate. I'm not sure of the exact use, but I think it fits somewhat ... b. To divert the energy associated with (an unacceptable impulse or drive) into a personally and socially acceptable activity. In normal society, that is a good thing usually ... but in TWI land, our impulses were sublimated to actions acceptable to the MOGFOT. It was mostly subconscious ... enforced by our belief that maybe VP was mogfot ... and at HQ especially, pushed along with the cattle prod of threats and intimidation.

I wondered that too .. maybe the people that have a philosophy that yields more peace ... or happiness ... produce more seratonin ... ... though isn't depression (or other "moods") partly genetic? ...

Well TWI top leaders were not happy ... or mellow ... they thought the world was out to get them ... and everyone that challenged them was possessed. Thinking back on vp ... he did not seem like a happy guy ... nor lcm. Nor the bus driver ... lynn, a little happier ... some were happier, some were more mental terrorists most of the time. I'm thinkin' most were seratonin deficient. The fundamental lessons were in "The Blue Book" (The Depressed Book"?) ... I guess VP was blue ... and wanted others to be blue. Release from your Prisons ... unless you follow me .. into the motorcoach ... you will never be free from your prisons ... I'll gonna take a triple dose of 5-HTP ...and get back to you in a week ... will I see Jesus? or Elvis? ... what if I mix it with beer ... and LSD ... and take "the class" ... backwards ... it says "V Paul is dead" ... some say if you looked in his eyes (eye) ... it was true ... dead eyes ...

nah ... there are probably counselors making their whole living off the survivors ... cult abuse yields more clients ... maybe they are paying them a commission to have their name advertised in the back of the BRC ... some are even listed here ... business is good ... :blink: (just kidding, of course the counselors are necessary at times ... and have no part in causing the harm)

You might be in trouble for claiming to be an attorney ... and though not disbarred, there may be a requirement to inform authorities to prevent a crime, even if you are not an attorney. I'm not sure ... it would probably not be prosecuted, unless you were complicit somehow ... I'm guessing. But I don't know what shingle Don or others that were counseling hung out. What appears to me is many went to a TWI executive with claims of serious abuse. VP was confronted ... based on some of that knowledge. I think Dot listed the numerous TWI employees she went to ... at the time, those that did nothing maybe were culpable, I don't know. Those that actively helped hide her story or intimidate her from telling, were more guilty. But it is the action of a TWI executive that I wonder about ... apparently Don was not given knowledge in that capacity, but as a counselor/minister. I think the counselor rules also apply to a minister ... if there is an expectation of privacy. So while he might encourage them to go forward .. he could not without their agreement. But if they went to a TWI executive to get the actions stopped, that seems a different situation to me. So who were the counselors and ministers and who were the executives ... some were both ... but some executives deflected witnesses. Some witnesses were sent out of TWI town on a rail ... which was a very coordinated TWI org action. Also was it possible to generally inform the 20,000 or so "on the field" without giving specifics ... without breaking any trust? That probably would have required an attorney outside of TWI. For years people were still sending money and people .. with no knowledge from top TWI execs of the high level of corruption. But I believe that the priority was still to keep it quiet, because HQ was still sacred ground ... it was considered better to try to keep the ministry intact ... right up through the yak twig ... after which all those therapeutic relationships abruptly ended for any that left. The rest of TWI carried on with their "adultery is okey dokey" doctrine ... I'm glad it wasn't me in that situation ... but it is good to review. Threats and intimidation by power figures happen all the time in the real world ... but the cult think ... "keeping the living Word alive" head trip is not involved ... though there are all kinds of head trips.

well .. you actually said ... Sure, we all want to be the one that saved the day BUT it just did not happen that way. END STORY. I am thankful what happened happened and what further misery was spared, was spared. You really expect more could have been done considering the incredible manifest insanity of most at the top...??!! REALLY?? in what comic-book world would that be, pray tell??? I think I read you correctly ... I guess not ... I sense hostility ... what is the source of that?

There is some of that .. and the first "is this the new gsc mog comment .. was mostly over something like that ... but I like to delve into these questions. twenty years ago ... seems we could calmly take it all apart and examine .. maybe not for another twenty years. Yeah .. he was in the middle ... I have no idea what he did ... but I want the details ... and I want to ask questions. People don't like my "tone" ... no matter how many ways I say I don't blame him ... it is a sensitive subject. My opinion is those in deepest and even us on the fringe ... do not accept all the frailties we had .. nor recognize all the screwiness ... but we can dig a little ... if someone feels guilt I tell them they were in a cult ... I don't want to tell them they were perfect ... nor was I.

Well, I'm certainly not your lad ... in reviewing history ... people make interpretations based on current knowledge .. they put the pieces together. I don't think we ALL know what happened, nor do we agree on the interpretation. That is all that we are doing here ... evaluating our histories ... putting the puzzle together. I don't quite get what you mean ... "end of story" ... I'm not thankful for what happened ... I sure don't blame Don ... or you ... but I can review. Of course more could have been done ... terrible things happened for three decades ... how can you say it could not have been better? Sure I know what happened ... but lets review how it happened ... isn't that the idea of history? Nothing can be done different now .. but let's remove some of the emotion ... if you review what happened at the battle of the bulge, or what started WW2 ... don't you try for an accurate interpretation? This is about unraveling our psycho drama past ... even trained psychoanalysts walk you back through some past events ... you don't get to paint them all in pretty bright colors ... I don't think this lesson is that hard ... if you remove some of the interference from those that want to pretend we did the best we could ... nothing could have been better ... it was good we stayed in so long .. must have been Gawd's plan ... then you can just look and consider. I'm not quite getting where all are coming from .. different places I guess .. fine ... for me ... I want to know reality ... add it up ... what happened ... how ...

First I never pretended I was more capable then, than anyone else. But I can have a view now ... and discuss it ... I had no direct knowledge of any real sexcapades .. I privately told you one minor incident, if that is what you are hinting at. It was a grab .. not sex. Someone else that was a problem ... was really being used by men in your fair city ... I think ... don't think I really knew that then. But now we can look back and try to unravel some things. ... so why not? So four years ... I don't know the doctors, nor do I know Don's position ... if he was working "behind enemy lines" ... he still should have been shipping victims to freedom ...as I see it. But what I really believe ... since I have no reason to pat Don on the head, and tell him what a good boy he was ... (and I'm sure he doesn't need that) is that it all took place under the umbrella of Vic's control. It was still in the cult box thinking ... and the rest is rationalization. ...understandable ... but still not the 20/20 hindsight best course of action. It looks to me like there was an inability to break from the cult, not so much a willful decision ... so the good hearted helping/counseling came under that "vic umbrella" ... under the vic influence. As for going toe to toe ... it started that way ... but vic won in a knockout in 31 seconds (I forget that fight, Liston versus the ear biter?) Money and people were being sent to this evil place ... but inside HQ ... it was a different world ... it was their whole world ... it was where the whole move of Gawd's Word ... that mankind depended on .. was emanating from ... what a mind pluck ... I think VP and gang would have folded like a cheap suit when confronted with law enforcement and a few witnesses ... but the charade was enough to keep it going ... and unfortunately these few leaders that were trying to be honest were also hooked in the cult ... so in a sense they enabled Vic ... they played out their own little "in the cult" drama ... it was exciting ... important ... but it kept the ministry alive ... kept the wuhrd alive (as it had not been known since the first century .. can't be losin' that) But people stayed in the cult ... there were more victims ... four years .. man .. that is a long time to keep feeding the beast. So maybe I sent some women to be counseled ... but they had to get raped first ... four years of money and people fed to the beast ... But there were those professional relationships to maintain ... so the abuse and counseling continued ... :unsure: Anyway ... that is my instant analysis ... off the cuff ... no doubt not all right ... but the view of those in the middle of HQ craziness ... is also jaundiced ... so there you have it ... flame away ... I don't claim any of that is factual ... it just portrays what I see .. questions I have ... another perspective to consider ... maybe one point adds some light ... or maybe it is a word of knowledge ... from above .... yeah ... that's it ... that' the ticket ... (now I see made a good post over there I think)

... I agree ... of course we are posting our current 20/20 thoughts ... are we supposed to teleport back to a 20 year old mental state ... and only communicate in terms of reverence for the ordained ... I do perceive that a little at times in some... I think for myself in terms of what I know today ... and those are the thoughts I post. Hindsight is probably not 20/20, or we'd all agree ... some things get blurred and denied ... especially from psycho trauma cult world. I see flaming and juvenille posts that indicate to me ... some are stuck ... at least when they enter this little GSC retro world. Others with all the yeah yeah .. amen ... to the post that tells people to take their current opinions and "take a flying bite" ... Well take your own flying bite ... and bite the high horse you rode in on too ... is that really the way it is? The royal WE ... ordained by TWI clergy ... don't want to hear what shoulda/mighta been done? ... "We were kings .... how dare any of the little people come and question ANY of our actions ... (in our wonderful cult with all the rapes and lies and abuse)" ... holy cow ... there is that sense ... as the deleted (to save the guilty) and the last couple threads partially demonstrate. Outside opinion or disagreement from people with different current 2008 perspective ... posting as adults here ... the position of skyrider is "take a flying bite" and we got a lot of "Amen ... hallelujah" .... on that ... from the choir ... in the church ... of Greasespot Cafe ... YIKES ... (yes, I'm glad to hear all the details of what happened ... but I have no sense of obligation to agree withANY of what went on, not idolize any for their former position in the destructive cult ... just the facts ma'am)

That may be ... but here is this story ... and I get to ask some questions about what in the world was going on ... I think my questions have clarified some things that seemed ambiguous or unclear or defensive or wrong. What I feel worst about from those days are people I either sent or knew well and did not stop from going into the corpse ... I don't think asking some direct questions hurts anything ... except a lot of people explode ... meaning this still is not a settled issue for many folks. No matter how accusative I might sound ... well adjusted people would not be so rankled ... the trashing of anyone asking the wrong questions or coming up with different conclusions ... is quite ummm ... remarkable. Also I said I didn't BLAME Don ... not that I didn't disagree with any of the actions he took. But no one can separate those things .... apparently only praise and worship and agreement is acceptable here ... at least with many that attacked me .... at least on certain subjects or with certain people.

Since Greaseyspot is also for those still in cults ... and for learning for those that were in ... why is it that any opinion or view of what might have been done ....is so offensive to some sensitive celebrities ... that a tirade of flaming and personal assault is leveled against that person, for not slobbering over the actions and efforts that were put forth? Then whole threads and false claims are made in defense ... all because of a reevaluation of the events that might prove profitable to someone else. What is wrong with learning from mistakes? Some seem way too defensive ... from the outside 20 years later, I think part of the psycho terror drama was sill being played out by those in some of the helping roles ... which kept a functioning body of people on life support, but still in the belly of the beast. There was still major cult thinking going on ... even as victims were being ministered to at different levels. VP died with his cult mostly intact. Stories of heroism prior to that seem exaggerated and make me gag a little, as people fawn over their ex cult leaders ... In hind sight ... is there nothing to learn? And since some of this is obviously a personal attack on me, would you quote where I blamed Don for not doing more, or claimed that I would have? Hope that helps clarify ...

It is good to hear that you had encouraged many of those people to go to authorities ... too bad none of them would. With all those lined up to tell their story, it would seem there was a willingness by many to get over it. Since you had stayed to counsel these many that you had developed this relationship with, were any counseled to get the heck out of Dodge? Without hearing a peep for a decade from HQ central about the years of abuse and sexcapades that were practiced at TWI HQ .... (all kept quiet and dealt with in house) .... I decided on doctrinal issues and POP info and some more, to leave TWI cold turkey. I told all those in my fellowship and others that I knew ... we all left ... based on doctrinal tyranny mostly. With knowledge of heinous criminal acts, certainly some word could have been gotten out to those on the field. "Quit sending money and people ... starve the beast". And all those victims ... weren't they at least counseled to run far far away? Sorry but it just doesn't add up to me, except that the counselors and all were "still in the cult". So "out of cult" thinking was not allowed. Since the pitchforks are out ... I don't know I need to say much more ... the confidentiality rules you stated are as I stated ... and as I said, they could at least have been encouraged to go to authorities. Apparently you did that ... that is a lot of victims ... not one wanted to prosecute individually or as a group ... too bad. I never was accusing you Don, but while you would be breaking a law to reveal something against their will, you'd also be breaking the law if there were children or elderly or mentally incompetent in danger, and you did not "report it" ... if you were acting in the counselor capacity. So I guess at least there were no children involved. Were people counseled to leave HQ ... leave TWI ... "there is rampant unrepentant abuse occurring here" .... ? All this professional counseling going on, but victims were continuing in TWI .... with all its villains. I never claimed to be any spiritual guru, but getting people away from TWI, out of the corpse, out of TWI would have seemed obvious with all that knowledge ... ALL "my people" left immediately ... with far less knowledge than was available at HQ central ... so sorry if it just doesn't add up that all these professional therapeutic relationships were ongoing, with people not getting out ... staying at HQ in the bowels of the beast, where counseling and abuse could continue. The first response I heard about why more was not done was maybe the most honest "I was in a cult".

Why not just use the quote button, instead of giving your interpretation of what I said? What exactly did you say I stated "as a fact"? My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement in certain cases, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion for this or other potential victims. Yes, I read the Googled confidentiality exceptions ... A single rape is not an ongoing event. I gave the example of if a murderer was still murdering ... but I only saw one reference to where harm outside the patient himself was included, except for elderly or children. But vp was confronted, so the information was out there. ... I am also curious on exactly what the rules are ... for a professional. But encouraging action for the greater good is certainly allowed/recommended I'd think. Wouldn't a counselee be encouraged to come forward to prevent further murder? The standard, that confidentiality is not absolute when further harm may be prevented, is established. I believe the mentally ill are also covered in some cases ... and perhaps those in the cult that are systematically set up for rape/abuse ... would fit under that umbrella. The idea seems that if those that are incapable of fending for themselves (children, elderly, mentally ill, cultists?) are endangered ... authorities must be contacted. Please use quotes .. rather than making up what I said ... it is getting old.

You know, despite all the claims, I don't think I ever blamed Don ... and I think my more conciliatory remarks on the other thread were overlooked because of being deeply offended on a sensitive issue. Thanks for pointing out some of what he said about the confrontations. I think those types of vp confrontations would have put most people in some sort of shock ... it is part of the psycho-terror trauma. Then trying to function in the capacity of a healer/leader ... survival was probably a priority. Loaded on that was the baggage of keeping the free world intact by our believing ... a lot was laid on us ... especially the point men. Still ... I think there is reason to reflect on the greater good that would have occurred if the lcm type lawsuit had been pushed 20 years earlier. This was not one man and one rape/abuse case ... it was systemic and continual and inflicting harm on hundreds. I certainly understand the arguments for why it was not ... it was the 70's ... we were not trained ... victims are reluctant ... and it was a cult. The TWI powers were mostly united against any such action ... still ...there were 100 good men and women ... hidden in their little research caves or J/N dens ... ready to rise up ... heh ... what a mess ... Church affiliated services still have much to offer ... Jewish Family Services comes to mind ... there are many.