rhino

Mohammad was a terrorist ... he ruled and converted with the sword. Jesus was not a terrorist ... he said he who is without sin, cast the first stone. To this day, women caught in adultery in Islam are still stoned. The issue went back to various Christian beliefs ... various statements here indicate the non-Trinitarian belief as only possible if people are somehow confused or not spiritual. The first "attack" was from apparent Trinitarian Juedes, quoted by Pawtucket. Juedes indicated all in the Way only believed JCING because they could not think for themselves and were totally blind, believing everything VP said because they all believed he was MOGFOT. Geisha introduced the Muslim view which she found interesting, that non trinitarians were maybe more Muslim than Christian. I did introduce the idea of Trinity beliefs being arrived at from traditional indoctrination, and that one reason for the Trinity mentality being introduced (in the third century?) was the convenience of winning over pagans. But I don't say Trinitarians don't think for themselves ... and I don't say they ARE pagan like for belieiving in the trinity. It was those type "attacks" (on JCING types) that I was taking exception to, though I am really in neither camp. Juedes was apparently attacking Lynn for claiming the TWI teaching was so great, while not even quoting from JCING in his own book. In a little bit of fairness to Lynn, he was indicating all these ideas we were introduced to were not available (as a package) anywhere else. I'm not sure he claimed VP was any kind of scholar. Of course Lynn's "as it had not been known since the first century" statement seems rather odd to most all of us, especially us that see VP as more fraudster than "MOGster".

Comparing non trinitarians to muslims has a definite negative connotation ... I can't think of any Christians that feel they are muslim like just because they don't confess to trinitarian belief. It is patently absurd ... In today's world ... the muslim faith's belief of bringing the chirstian into submission ... is in the more extreme forms related to the terrorist. So I asked ... if you are saying non trinitarians are muslim like, are they the more extreme types ... terrorists? It is just one more step, and it was a question, not a re-titling. Is it really a surprise? What was the thrust of the initial comparison? And how does it relate to The Way, It Was? Except for the non trinitarian view that was just discussed. Should I find a thread comparing trinitarians to three headed purple people eaters? Just for fun?

My uncle was NOT mean .. he was compassionate .. a true believer. He was happy to spend time with me. He knew my Way history ... but he felt he had to help people avoid the fires of heell. Juedes ... Sweet? He doesn't know me, yet made a blanket judgment that I only thought that I thought .. that I completely believed everything vp said. That is totally false ... not so sweet. But like my uncle .. he is probably certain he is right .... Juedes is faithful in prayer? How does anyone know how faithful he or anyone have been in prayer? I'm not tired of picking on dwbh ... where is he anyway? I never picked on dwbh, I disagreed ... he is quite capable to disagree without getting bent, isn't he? Now I'll get blamed for picking on you ... I'm not .. you posted some serious issues ... tell that story if you want, why else bring it up? ... my uncle died with his Bob Jones kids not talking to him ... and his wife maybe not meeting him in heaven ... in his mind. I was talking to him and helping him throughout ... my message is that strict adherence to doctrine can divide more than unite.

You are firm in your trinity belief ... I had an uncle and his fam that hurt everyone , despite his most sincere intention that anyone that did not believe exactly as he did was going to heelll. In the end even his Bob Jones grad kids were lost causes ... not of the correct Baptist way ... it was sad ... Comparing a Christian to a muslim ... it may well be you are just trying to help them see the light ... as my uncle tried. Even his wife .. he was not sure she was heaven bound ... I brought them tomatoes and melons ... I'm not a guru .. but can see what doctrinal obstinance can do. And I don't know where you would feel safe telling your story or if you need to ... and I can't help with your child. I really CAN'T imagine. I hope you find some solace somewhere.

my point was that YOU made a point of what the muslims were comparing. It was your point being made here ... The other horrific events that you expressed ... I don't know how that relates to doctrine that was being debated ... but that might be a story you could tell ... and should tell? I've certainly been a proponent of exposing all those that committed those crimes ... or helped with or enabled or looked the other way or did any less than commandeer every available soul to stop the actions of the predator in chief. I don't really care how many dogs vp had ... some actions had to be stopped ... not intellectualized. I'm sorry for any of that ... that happened to you ...

Oh, I am very light, that is why I am replying to lightweight posts like this ... you are having fun comparing non trinitarians to muslims ... :) I get it ... :) this is a beer post, just so dwbh knows .. I know he cares cards lost ... cubs win cubs win cubs win ... 100 years ... the stars are aligned for the cubs ... prepare the fatted goat ... edmonds is the judas ... it all fits like a hand in a ball glove ... mstar has prophesied ... Two Boots for Sister Sarah

What seems clear is you have a belief that people that don't believe in the Trinity are confused/damned/antichrist ... whatever. Now you are bringing in some Muslim forum baseless post to support your view, or introduce what you seem to consider support for your trinity view. The smiley faces are overdone ... you are saying Christians that don't believe the trinity are muslims (terrorists?) .. an extreme viewpoint, not supported by much of anything. It seems to be more grasping at straws than any sort of reasonable discourse. My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position. :) :) :)

As someone basically out of either position, saying "the Trinity" has anything to do with understanding God's basic nature does not seem natural to me ... it seems like a dogma. Knocking the book JCING and VP's shoddiness does not address the real issue. Surely there are shoddy works that support the trinity as well. I'm not that interested in the issue, but Lynn's book did not use JCING as a reference. Perhaps the Babylon Mystery religion would be a better reference. Traditional religion can't explain away Christmas or Easter myths so easily. There is clearly plenty of error in traditional Christian beliefs and practice. Children learn what they are taught. It seems harder to teach that the child is the parent, than a more logical belief that they are distinct. If the comparison to sonship is only a figure of speech, it is still the one God chose ... (most of us are not our own grandpa). Do you teach your child that you and he are one? And then of course Christians are also sons, and of the one body, with Christ as the head ... more problems for Trinitarian dogma. And as simple as it is, the use of "son of God" and not "God the Son" (or "God the Sun") seems rather glaring, though I haven't read the original manuscripts ... or was it spoken first? I see nothing obvious about the trinity, except that it fit in better with old pagan beliefs, and would help convert pagans ... they have their easter and christmas and all the other fishiness. Only to those that have been "brainwashed" at some point about the trinity, would that belief seem "natural", as i see it. Once indoctrinated, it seems natural, and since that is the major Christian belief, it becomes dogma, as all of us exWOWs that were burned at the stake in some small town, can testify. Of course most of the world does not believe Jesus is God ... they believe in some other sacred cow. "Blindness" is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. :)

Wayers accepted JCING in totality because they totally accepted everything Wierwille said because they believed he was "The Man of God for our day and time" who taught and spoke by revelation. It was not important what JCING said– only that Wierwille said it. They accepted what Wierwille said with blind devotion much as early Mormons accepted polygamy and six-foot tall residents on the moon because their "Prophet" Joseph Smith said so. Juedes seems to be getting a little grandiose here ... there were varying degrees of belief in vp as MOGFOT ... Juedes seems to want to use totality as a springboard for his own Trinitarian beliefs ... a little self righteousness. It seems to me to be his own version of "people were possessed to not believe the Trinity" We mostly laughed at the stupid peter beter tape about the fake moon landing. VP didn't openly teach his adultery doctrine .. he probably did some testing and found most people would not accept it. Certainly later most thought the Schoenheit adultery paper was obviously correct. There are certainly plenty of reasons to believe JC was not God ... it seemed more logical to me even before TWI. Before TWI as a Lutheran I never thought of JC as being God, to the best of my recollection. Now as someone who doubts the Bible was "God breathed", I still don't see the Trinity doctrine fitting very well. This section from Juedes marks him more as a black and white thinker, speaking from his own trinitarian cult ... marking all wayers as totally accepting, blindly devoted to vp ... "how else could they possibly deny The Trinity?". It seems to me he has his own Holy Cow. But Juedes claims ... By contrast, if Billy Graham or Chuck Smith would have published JCING, their readers would have roundly rejected it, rather than unquestioningly accepting it as Wierwille's followers did. Cult followers like TWI dutifully obey their leaders while deceiving themselves into thinking that they are thinking for themselves. There is no evidence that readers would have rejected it ... except that their larger cult "blindly" accepted Trinity doctrine for so long. And certainly not all blindly accepted VP's trinity views, but they were less likely to stick around if they did not. Certainly there was less room for divergent views in TWI (I presume), but I find Juedes' view too absolute. If you were in divinity school, were you allowed to "pass go" without firm allegiance to Trinity dogma? (I don't really know, I'd say no, at least at Bob Jones University) When I ran piffle, there were always parts that made me cringe, and I think most recognized vp "imperfections". It was never total acceptance for most ... but it was strong influence. And probably the majority of TWI was closer to not believing vp was MOGFOT ... but the higher up the pecking order you went, the more allegiance and belief was required and instilled. The vast majority of "wayers" were people going to twig, maybe running a twig. They were a different type than the people that dwelled in the hotbed of oppression that existed at the root locations. Those people are not the norm (nor normal). Because GSC is inhabited by so many that spent time at HQ ... or that were in over a decade, the average wayfer is not represented. Especially the average joe from the vpw era. I think the group think mentality was a large part of the influence, which also happens in most churches. It was the whole package, and so much in TWI tended to isolate the wayfer from everyone else. Some mentally acquiesced, some suspended disbelief, some got too caught up in the drama ... I actually think few fully believed vp was the current Apostle Paul ... or anything near that. Even in PFAL, his own stories showed him as too imperfect to be the MOFOT. Maybe the Apostle Paul was also imperfect, but VP's piffle stories of all the other men he learned from, and the mistakes ... did detract from the pure image of a more perfect MOGFOT ... didn't it? TWI would qualify as a cult, as I see it. But to make such absolute statements about wayers seems wrong. Juedes seems to be speaking from his own cult's pulpit, when he uses the total blind devotion argument to support his Trinity belief. It would seem lcm totally bought it ... he defended all the adultery and with claims that it was VP approved ... as if that was the final word. I think many other leaders just bought into the power trip and liked the perks. Certainly there were a good number that mostly bought it ... but few "totally accepted everything Wierwille said". The cult label is a little unforgiving. But where does Jalvis fit in? He seemed more opportunist. He used his position to party in the little basement romper room as corps coordinator, ten when time for rallying some contributors to his personal cause, he slammed the ministry and confessed his sins, wrote a few books for his splinter, now is trying the VP was God angle again.

It happens ... but it is after the lion has killed the lamb. :o Just yesterday, right in front of me, a couple new fawns ran out from under a tree in heavy brush, about 100 yards from my house. I haven't seen any coyotes around here lately, and they are really the only predator, except man. I'm glad we don't have bears in the woods.

Well that is interesting ... I wonder if those are a matter of public record then. Perhaps the officers were only the trustees ... but I found this ... Draft bylaws. Bylaws are simply the "rules" of how the organization operates. Although Bylaws are not required to file for 501©(3) status, they will help you in governing your organization. Bylaws should be drafted with the help of an attorney and approved by the board early in the organization's development. Anyway, whatever they had written, it was probably designed more to protect the trustees than to deal with illegal or immoral activity, IMO. But it would still be interesting reading ... maybe a good document to have on file at GSC. Good plan ... the OT MOG's seemed to do battle rather well at times.

I don't see the purpose of offering up our life, in general ... but some things are worth fighting for ... you only need the first 100 seconds of this .. but it's all good ... maybe that really was the greatest generation ... or maybe it is all crap ... sigh ...

yeah well .. some here regard me as an enemy for disagreeing .. oh well ... communication is good. Some back and forth in an open and honest way is how conflicts get resolved. I don't have time for those rules of nicey nice where everything is so shrouded in nuance that you can't tell what people mean. And people that use those techniques are usually telling you to eff off, but in their nice way ... :o Others just flame you and try to intimidate ... an old jedi vp mind trick. There are things to learn from that twisted past ... those inside the new groups think they have learned ... so why would they be afraid of a little back and forth here? Communication is more like sport to me ... not "let's just be super nice to everyone .. and have a super nice day" ... no, tell me what you think, and don't just throw insults. Communicate. But too many people have too much to hide ... they don't want to be honest .. they are working an agenda ... and so it goes ... I don't know the kid .. but yeah ... if he blows it, how will the word ever survive? It is an interesting soap opera to watch ... and our lampooning will hopefully poke a hole in any delusions of grandeur ... but you never know ... everyone likes to dream ...

Yeah, on this site about TWI history, and its splinters ... it would be interesting to see the actual time line of "advancements" in counseling. the 60's ... free love ... no problem ... vic explores the scene in California the 70's ... naked vic ... teaching teenage girls the beauty of the body the 80's ... a little trouble ... some counseling ... ? the 90's ... legal problems ... lcm gets "counseled" out of HQ how were these victims dealt with ... how was the source of the problem dealt with? As counseling within the cult maybe improved ... when did they start counseling that the victims should be removed from HQ, at the least? I would assume the splinters all preach against adultery or sexual predation on young women by ministers. But some of those same leaders were still part of TWI for a long time, and stood by as people that even just read the adultery paper were "exorcised" out of TWI. I suppose then, that either none of the counselors read the paper, or none of them are any longer in TWI. So yeah, in this new Way Corps, where they are molding young lives, how will misconduct be dealt with? They have already stated they want people to come, only if they are willing to do things they are not comfortable with. How uncomfortable are they going to be made? What happens if they "break" them? Is there a camp counselor, at least? Considering all the "brainwashing" that occurred at so many levels of TWI, without major or complete overhaul of those corps principles ... it seems the best counseling would be to "GET OUT of the CULT" ... At least they have Ham to contact for support ...

Thanks Penworks ... I didn't want to add more clutter to that other thread, which had covered a wide number of issues. I didn't mean to imply that you were pointing fingers at these men for debasing their teaching. But to me, especially in the field of psychology, it appears that even staying in The Way meant compromising and submitting to Vic's Way. The research team is a classic example I suppose ... Vic got the final word, though he was not by any means the most competent nor the most educated. But he was the magic man ... he got a promise direct from God and saw snow on the pumps ... did you? (tongue in cheek) I don't doubt the sincerity of those men, I lived with one of them for a year, and have no reason to think badly of him. But I do wonder how anyone could stay in The Way, and not be compromised. Especially so for those holding facts about VP's secret world. There are counselors that apparently specialize in helping people out of cults ... books on all the subtle influences ... so given that, it seems these sincere and knowledgeable men were themselves still CUI ... "counseling under the influence." So I have to wonder whether that was ever broken ... the cult addiction. Since I see that as THE real problem, I don't see much help beyond the bandaids until they themselves were delivered from that prison/allegiance. I don't understand how they could in good conscience, stay in TWI, unless they were still under a certain level of ... call it "cult mind control", for lack of a more professional term. And of course with the new Way Corps rearing its head, I wonder how they will handle these issues. Greasespot spends a lot of time reviewing the old TWI of the early 80's and before ... but it is the current TWI and the splinters that are the issue now, really. I think LCM once declared they had become a religion ... so maybe they have also taken a less dogmatic approach, maybe they do have checks and balances ... and even actual professional counseling. I just can't see it happening for those that were "IN" while VPW was around. The splinters have decentralized to a large degree, and people that are still around in them are more mature and capable of recognizing and dealing with their spiritual "leaders" ... or so we can hope. Have they actually grown out of the cult think / group think? To me, what you described as a "very odd situation" was indeed that ... but if they were still in the cult, they were blind to the root issue ... allegiance to this great manipulator. Everyone needed to leave the influence of the cult, before there could be a crisis resolution. All in TWI were hostage, to a certain degree. Being in the cult WAS the crisis.

I would be interested to know if those professional counselors are still in TWI ... or if they left and are in a splinter ... or when they left ... since you mentioned the comments from penworks, which are indeed helpful, i was wondering about this ... The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that. Does TWI allow some of those professionals to help? Or are they still using holy water and silver bullets? Or are those professionals still in TWI, putting on bandaids, as they compromise their "secular/worldy" training to "make it accurate" according to da wuhrd? The splinters have maybe progressed a little, how could they exist without some changes? ... But given the spiders in the noses type rev' that was reported ... it seems some ministers have their own schizophrenia ... or whatever ... I think VP knew he made up the snowy gas pump story ... but maybe the myth has become greater than the man ... a few more generations and vp will be remembered as half man, half god ... did he have wings? I almost forget ....

Actually, I don't think any of those are figures of speech ... A child born out of wedlock. Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin. Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable.

Well if you generalize enough ... sure, there are always some points ... But rascal mentioned comparing it to our time in TWI ... it seems more opposite to me. He was under physical duress yet did not submit ... we were told we were better/smarter than others ... and were tricked into following a man. Some who got out did OK I guess .. some are still trying to recover. But maybe some good happened despite the negative surroundings ... and our leading people to a cult ... hmmm ... I don't think it was just the leaders that did harm. I just can't see Joseph in the cult ... he kept his mind free.

I'm sure there is something to learn there ... but Joseph maintained his relationship with God ... while being forced into a different place and role. We were suckered into following a man that filled us with a lot of false doctrine and practices. We were free to leave but were not spiritually or otherwise sharp enough to get out. I don't see any Josephs in TWI daze ... people were abused, they fed money and time into a destructive cult. The way some men treated their wives (per TWI instruction) is just one example of how we were not Josephs. I don't see Joseph as being led doctrinally astray ... nor that he was tricked or coerced. I can't see Joseph ever getting into TWI ... as opposed to him being sold into Egypt. Cultists minds are captured ... whereas Joseph did not give over control, except in the physical.

There is also "lucid dreaming" ... A lucid dream is a dream in which the person is aware that he or she is dreaming while the dream is in progress, also known as a conscious dream. When the dreamer is lucid, he or she can actively participate in the dream environment without any of the inhibitions or limitations that otherwise would feel natural to persons who incorrectly believe they are in the "real" waking world. Lucid dreams can be extremely real and vivid depending on a person's level of self-awareness during the lucid dream.[1] I have done this ... haven't thought of it for a long time ... glad this came up. You recognize the dream on some level, but decide to stay in the dream, but you control it. So maybe you were falling, but you fly ... up up and away ... superman ... or up up and away, in my beautiful balloon ... whatever you want ... wahooo ... can't wait to go to sleep tonight .... If you have recurrent dreams that perhaps relate to some real world event, it may be that control through a lucid dream may give you more control over the situation in the real world as well ... giving yourself emotional power over it, mostly I'm thinking. This can free you from submissive responses maybe ... good for people in a cult maybe ... turn the tables on that MOG ...

I imagine it popped up in some teachings somewhere ... but it seems a common response of defensiveness. This "Father in the word" is found out to have done lotsa bad stuff ... some that were so enamored/entwined for so long can hardly just throw off that emotional attachment. And of course there is the syndrome of the abused tending to protect the abuser. I believe anyone really seeking help would have found it ... and maybe some within TWI were still functioning as helpers. But as I see it, they would have functioned in that capacity more efficiently in other ministries, or even on their own. Could VP's ability to hook people into his cult ... somehow have attracted people that would have stayed lost .... and then those people's lives were improved by the good folks that were also trapped in the cult? It makes more sense to me that VP harmed other ministries (as WW pointed out), and was a parasite that killed or harmed his hosts. People that were helped, were really getting the ministry of other men, but VP stamped his name on everything. It was degraded by VP .. not improved. He drove it right into the ground. (literally ... he lived off their biblical work, till he went into the ground himself) I do wonder if it was not just his physical abuse of himself (alcohol, tobacco) that led to his early demise, but his moral abuses as well. But even at the end, he was putting blame on others ...

I don't even know the old rules ... there are plenty of rules ... it is how they get applied that matters. If someone posts something in response to another post ... then that post is deleted, and a responder to that post is called a liar because that post now never existed ... that is getting slimy. Then if the responder's rebuttal is deleted, but the king allows his false accusation to stand ... it gets real ugly ... and all respect is lost. If flaming is allowed by a favored few, but an excuse is looked for, to ban those that post comments that don't support "the mission" .. that is slimy ... If enough slime happens .. there will be a small gang of people remaining that agree with each other and use the site to rejoice at how superior they are ... but they will find ways to attack each other, with everyone else gone .. and the site dies. That is not all that different than sites that don't allow outside commentary .. it might actually be worse, because there would be a pretense of openness ... Ideally there is a purpose here, but there is no need to control the direction of commentary. Maybe get two people before banning anyone ... so personal grudges don't control those type actions ... it is easy to destroy a place when fairness is tossed out, and the eject button is used as a power trip tool. Yes I agree ... why don't some good folks post here any more ?

Very interesting Jonny ... I had a college roommate .. a friend from high school, that went to see The Exorcist" and couldn't sleep with the lights out for a month or so. Another interpretation may be that they were not spirits, but your own brain, with fear induced images from the movie. When you changed from fear to assertiveness ... your mind rejected the self produced images, and you felt you had control. Of course I don't know ... but I just remember how amazed I was at the influence of that movie on my engineering student friend. But he wa in aeronautical engineering, so maybe he was just spacey ...

Yes ... Vic was the higher power ... Don was not able to stand up to him ... I think that is fact, not accusation. He tried and then found up what he was really up against ... Don describes it pretty well, doesn't he? this is a forum ... sure, face to face at a bar would be different, but we are in a forum ... it can be honest here also. Why am I only allowed to ask questions, in your rule book? I was sending in money and people ... why is the perspective of the 99% of TWI that was on the field not important? This idea that other TWI clergy have greater insight seems bogus ... maybe they have lesser insight. Being clergy was shown to not mean much of anything in TWI ... and some seem to still think there was some greater understanding at HQ ... I see it as greater confusion. Exactly, it was and is easier for me to have a different maybe clearer perspective ... I was not so owned and controlled by doc vic ... but we are talking about four years at HQ, not just those couple of incidents ... starting in '82 I think. Don stuck around to see what orders the bus driver was going to pass down. Trying to hold the ministry together was still important. I'm trying to reconcile all that. That was from the Jalvis letter in '88 ... I said he was at least right on that point. I'm not sure he STILL thinks TWI was great, that may just be his latest tack. It seems he was united with some others at that point. I AM being empathetic ... I'm empathetic toward all those that suffered through those last four to six years when several exec's at HQ knew of the hypocrisy and lies and drunks and abuse ... but chose to keep it a secret. We all soldiered on while the thumbs up was the message given from trunk. While I can understand Don's state, I can not agree that it was a conscious and correct decision to keep the 99% on the field in the dark ... nor to not push harder for a change. It was guided by confusion and fear of VP. What needed to be revealed wasn't confidential knowledge .. Jalvis talked about it in 1988 ... we are talking about it now ... Don didn't want "the burden" ... he didn't ask for it, he just wanted to go back to NY and "move the Word". I think there needs to be more than one perspective ... that one coming from deep inside "identity confusion" in the middle of HQ. There is nothing dishonest about that ... and there is empathy for Don's state, not blame .... he described it well ... ... how could we protect ourselves and our families??.......how could we have been so duped??........how could we survive outside "god's household".......how could we not speak up??........what could we do for work?, how would we support our families?... raise our children?........how could we stay in twi?........how could we leave?..........talk about identity confusion!!!!!

It is just about the actions ... not about who took them. But how do you separate those? The Way Tree worked in VP's favor, protecting him from all comers. Whatever else went on, that power was not broken ... it should have been. I just don't see any underground movement to break the thang up .... till VP was gone ... THEN people were able to write letters and communicate to the rank and file TWI folks about the misdeeds. That seems the important point as I see it. MOGFOT privilege was extended. It trumped everything else. There were NO HEROES. I believe it was because Don's state was as he said (others didn't even try or were part of the gulag enforcement) ... I don't believe it was that all these people went to Don or the others just for counseling ... and that there was some ongoing behind the scenes effort to clean the thing up ... there was inaction, people were buried in the system, some literally. What do you think is dishonest? How else do you give a view of events as portrayed by someone else ... these were key people ... key events ... everyone in the ministry was burdened. Four to six years elders had knowledge ... not a peep ... Then the finger was pointed at me ... "what did I do?" ... I believed what was coming from HQ ... and finally based on a little knowledge, got everyone in my space out. HQ secrets were kept from everyone till after VP ... they shouldn't have been. Joh Lynn apologized for not acting sooner ... he was lost in group think ... that seems more honest, at least on that point. We have this pretty full disclosure on the open internet here now ... what if this initial post had been communicated in '82. Apparently there is nothing about client privilege or confidentiality that is an issue ... it is here for the world to see. That is my honest opinion ...