rhino

oh ... duh .. I missed the "per litre" part ... But England is so tiny ... and they can just run around in those tiny little cars ...

I'm showing one pound is about 2 US dollars ... so I don't know what is up wit dat ... gas in europe used to be much higher ... but much of the rise in gas price is due to weakness in the US dollar ...

Well I don't know these folks or the CFF policies .. or how loosely associated they are with this experiment in the woods ... It looks like these "old guys" are already living there, at least part of the time ... or is it just something they do one weekend per month? Perhaps they have already cut their mustard and are just looking for some part time retirement grooviness. Still, the whole way corps 2 thing is odd ... someone must have a plan ... :unsure: Does CFF (or these woodsy guys) push the ten percent tithe thingy? If so I wonder how they determined they are the ones to receive it. There must be a few people giving something to maintain some kind of organization ... and to feel there is a need for this way corps thing. Any ideas on how many are involved in this? I'm thinking there are several around Chicago that are maybe attached in some fashion. I guess you haven't received that Way Corps 2 brochure yet .. giving all the details.

Good info outintexas ... I looked into the tailgate down thing ... mythbusters did tests that showed what you said is true ... but they did a later test that showed using one of those mesh tailgates with the heavy tailgate removed saved 5%. I suppose it maintains the aerodynamics mostly, perhpas improves them a little, but reduces weight by some 75 pounds. Not driving a truck or large vehicle unless you really need it saves even more ... :)

True, when you fill up, you will lose the vapors in the tank ... but if you fill up just the top half, say 8 gallons, you lose 8 gallons worth of vapor, instead of 16, but you have to fill up twice as often, so it is a wash. I don't see why the speed of the pump matters, and the extra weight that George mentioned is probably the overriding factor ... so better to drive on the bottom half, for efficiency sake. The extra driving and time to fill up more often may be another factor. With such a large volume even just a few feet below ground, I can't see any change from just daytime heating ... I'd bet less than a tenth of a degree ... but I wouldn't bet much ... I'm no mechanic, but even in the old carburator days, I'm not sure more pressure would help pump more gas ... nor would pushing extra gas through make for more efficiency ... if it was too rich it would waste fuel and pollute more. But especially with today's electronic fuel injection, all that is very precisely controlled.

I don't think the temperature of the undergorund tanks will change through the day. They are underground where the temp is stable. The trucks bringing the fuel will change that a little, but it is hard to know when they arrive, and in the winter it would be an advantage as they would add somewhat colder gas. And why would you lose more gas to vapor when you run the gas faster? I'm not sure where that vapor comes from anyway ... where is this vapor release? It would seem better to pump faster if anything ... less time the column of water is exposed to air ... I'm not sure about the running on the top half or bottom half of the tank ... the tanks have a cap that won't let out a lot of fumes, if any. And no matter how much gas is in fumes, only the gas fumes that escapes would matter ... A eight gallon volume of fumes is not much, as long as it is not constantly escaping. I guess big trucks unloading might stir up sediment ... maybe ... but there are probably filters. Anyway ... that's how I see it ... :)

Well it is interesting that all those that pretend to be Native american Indian stars ... are not really part of the Indian Nation ... We made some treaties .. but it does seem things have moved on, and the American nation has prospered, and those that moved ahead with it are far better off than those still clinging to the old. Of course "better" is relative ... but running a casino hardly seems to maintain the old traditions ... I don't care where the topic goes ... my initial thought about the original inhabitants is not really conclusive ... and I'm not sure it matters ... Native americans conquered Anmerican Inidains for centuries, then it seems those natives were complicit in selling out their own people to the new americans ... largely white men ... Do the conquered Indians expect anything from the Indians that conquered them ... before the white man showed up and conquered them all?

or 20% of TWI chicanery ... yielded 80% of the blind commitment ... :o

True krysilis ... and it probably has merit ... the largest have grown to 14 cells I think ... but at that I suppose some folks already have ethical problems ... but we've already had other animal body parts transplanted ... As long as it doesn't evolve into growing some tortured mancow that we harvest organs from ... it may be of benefit. The idea of growing organs is interesting ... with three or four new organs, maybe you and I can discuss this in 70 years ... at breakfast with rooster eggs and bull milk It is already illegal to culture human-animal embryos for more than 14 days or to implant them in the womb of a woman or animal and these prohibitions will remain in the new legislation.

No doubt we met some good people .. and our experiences with them are real But though I am not a counsellor ... it seems I should not emphasize those "ancillary" positives over the overriding abuses ... that would be like making excuses for the abuser ... a classic victim problem? We were lied to and tricked ... and I got out, while salvaging some memories of "good times", the real thing is I weas mostly a deceived victim ... and now I have moved on, which is great. I hope all have left the junk behind. To say we have no regrets is like saying it was great being in that auto accident, because those guys in the other cars were real nifty and we had good times on our way to the hospital. TWI was not good ... like many things in life ... if we overcame .. fine ... it was not the first century church gone slightly awry ... it was a con game, with perhaps some sincere moments from some of those "living in the dream" ... the "meals with the man of God sharing eternal truth in the BRC basement" dreams are groovy ... not what it really was. I think the "no regret" line is delusional ...

OK ... I can't quite come up with the right lines from PFAL ... but I'm sure there is some good comedy here ... How does this fit in with the foundational principles? British team makes mixed human animal embryos A team at the University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne announced tonight that it had successfully generated "admixed embryos" by adding human DNA to empty cow eggs, in the first experiment of its kind in the UK. Gives new meaning to the seven cow woman ... So now nice teats means ... hey baby, how many gallons a day do you produce? I hated to divorce her, but I got $145 per hundredweight, and I have this nice baseball glove to remember her by ... OK ... maybe this is just plain silly ...

Hi Krista ... I think most groups have a level where there is support and concern, or they would not exist at all ... no one would be attracted to them. And certainly not everyone in twi was evil ... I was there, and of course I was a saint So it may very well be that some splintered from twi and are attempting to do a good thing. To have some gatherings with some of the old folks seems like a decent thing, and I doubt there is much heavy handedness at the home fellowship level. I'm not directly involoved with any of these people, so I don't care what they do, and threats to anyone seem pretty far out there (and should probably be reported to mods here at least, a threat to do harm is maybe illegal). However, early on it did seem to me, some were more concerned about building their own little empire, possibly for profit. Much of the old ego of some seemed still in place. Now they (or someone) seem to be sponsoring this corps take two thing, so we have chatted about that. It is partly humorous banter, but I think there are genuine philosophical questions that can be discussed here. I wouldn't consider writing them to say how they should run things, but they can read what my opinion is if they would like. I think Ham has asked some good questions. Certainly trying to build something that is genuinely service oriented is good ... and these folks that have their own life can fellowship together and not be controlled by their MOG's. That doesn't sound so bad, regardless of what doctrine they adhere to ... But it is those seemingly manipulative aspects that appear to creep into the various splinters that people may speak up about more here. GSC might offer a sort of trial by fire .. though there may be some "haters" that will condemn all that continue in anything the least bit similar to TWI ... which is unfortunate.

... even accepting your "it is the Word of God" premise Did the time serving twi enhance those hours studying the Bible? Or did it direct one's thinking down a certain path that furthered their ends ... which included "believing to bring material abundance to the ministry ...? In other words, it was not one's own study if the doctrine was determined by TWI. It was research with a predetermined outcome, with pressure applied by twi to ensure no one wandered off doctrinally on their own. It seems important to recognize the overriding influence that made us so "like minded" was TWI, not God. So to pretend their is nothing to regret seems to be denial of reality, and not helpful in moving on to something more wholesome, though it is a way of dealing with the harshness of some of the ugly "truth".

clove oil is pretty good, not sure it is any better than anbesol ... I think the "dentist" in Marathon Man used clove oil on Dustin Hoffman ... Is it SAFE?

Man, those fans will be rowdy by 7pm ... 115,000 rowdy fans trying to find their way home ... wow ... PLAY BALL

But what hapens when people start throwing those compact flourescents out with the trash? That mercury goes into our water, eventually ... I have a bunch of them, but that is a question. Is it easier to get rid of a little nuclear fuel, or to have mercury spread around in our environment? I think there was already a Sat. Night Live skit on that ... or some skit. We need 2000 new nuke plants ... making the world darker seems like a bad plan ... though conservation is smart. from wikipedia ... A June 2007 article calculated that the overall mercury emission by CFLs is less than the mercury released into the atmosphere by coal-fired power generation for series of equivalent incandescent lamps over the same period.[40] Of course, not all electricity is coal-fire generated, but the mercury from spent CFLs in landfills is not released into air if the bulbs are transported in a way so that they don't break, and with proper disposal, will not be released into the subsurface or groundwater in the foreseeable future. Yet at the moment it is calculated that only 3% of CFL bulbs are properly disposed of or recycled. It is important to note that this comparison also only refers to the statistics of one CFL bulb surviving for a full 5 years of use. For example: If the CFL were to break or burn out a total of 3 times in that 5 year period there would be an additional 12mg of mercury used

ha ... well, we've already had a taste of how rocky would respond to criticism of the program. As far as I know, Rocky's interests are more politics. My guess is his involvements revolve more around his desire to reach out politically ... and this and that other site are grass roots venues for that. Ham, however, has been less ham handed ... he has sought out answers from the leaders. Maybe when the twelve arrive, ham could sneak in and get them to sign on with him in some official capacity ... for a ham union of sorts. They could strike for higher wages, longer breaks, better food. Then would be certified instructors, safer working conditions, health care coverage ... retirement benefits, vacation time ... oh, and no "firing" without due process. Long live the union of ham ...

Ha ... yes I did misread what you were saying ... and yes, I woould reasonably expect a nice reply. They are clearly small time... they just need 12 volunteers ... like the twelve apostles? It is an interesting comparison. The other camps look pretty cool. Of course they a geared toward fun and discipleship, where as the new corps is for "leadership". The in depth spiritual perception and awareness I acquired says the new way corps is not ready for prime time. And there are good reasons to question the corps principles as a founation. But till we get more info, we can just surmise ... perhaps it is dying on the vine .. or they decided to be more secretive to keep prying eyes away.

It is supposed to start this summer? Have you gotten the brochure yet? I mean ... he did offer ... I'm not sure if they or such groups are public entities. People have rights to meet in private, so it would be interesting to see how much outside intervention there should be, from a legal stand point. This is not the military, so how many hours per day can they maintain "control" over these volunteers? From an ethical view, it does seem some sort of ombudsman would be in order, from outside the group. I nominate Ham. Of course back 20 years ago, people were being deprogrammed against their will ... obviously wrong. We don't know what this group is doing, but from the old TWI view, an outside information campaign would have maybe been helpful. The internet makes that more practical now than then. When in residence, almost all our info was filtered through twi ... but I don't guess they ever read our mail or kept us off the phone. I wonder if they will allow cell phones while in training, or internet access? :unsure:

On many levels I think, if you inwardly question something going on as potentially harmful, there is perhaps an obligation to speak up. The sooner the better. Whether it is consumer advocacy, or brotherly love, or a concerned citizenry ... pointing out the potential for harm is a good thing. The more discussion from people outside their little world, the better, it would seem. And what place has more qualified observers than here? :) A dialogue would be better ... if they can't/won't answer some direct questions ... are they really ready to start molding young minds ... out on an isolated farm? It is a voluntary program, but I even wonder if the volunteers don't have some legal rights to consider. Perhaps they need an outside advocate like Mr. Ham. And from a more aloof view, it is interesting to think of this new thang, in light of how we got swept away in that old thang. It is somewhat easier to analyze the new version, since our emotions are less directly involved. So it is easier to see how this could lead to manipulation, than to accept that we were manipulated by similar lofty promises ... As we used to say ... you got the burden, Mr. Ham ...

You aren't paying attention if you think it was about slamming V2P2. If anything, he is in the victim role, though if he follows in the other corps traditions, he may learn to victimize as well. Sure people can learn from past mistakes ... but this starts with no improvements or changes evident ... it is a replica of the principles. For one, I'd change the principle of practicing believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry. Is empire building for me and/or the ministry the primary point of believing? Seems more secular than spiritual, and it ties the person in as a money maker for the ministry. If "believing" even works, why not believe for effective ministering ... ? And why "go forth as leaders and workers" ... what areas of concern interest and need? People are already "forth". Do they need to be moved around for CFF's benefit? Is that a God principle, or just something that helps the ministry coerce people into doing their bidding, and keeping "their people" on the move and available? ... A lifetime of moving around with the main attachment being the ministry? Itseems like a set up from the start. And if there is anything ambiguous about the direction the principles are supposed to lead one, there is a 30 years history of twi to refer back to, with plenty of elders with the pattern etched in their brains. And that it is the second coming of Victor Paul Wierwille ... is this like the second adam? this is the good one? That is just too weird to not mention. Plenty to discuss .... Here is the middle of the thread ... if people want to check it out for themselves. It appears CFF is sponsoring or connected with this thing, which uses the old corps principles verbatim. Then it seems "staffed" by old wayfers. But the young Vic Paul wierwille is coordinating? They put it on the web, so it is open for discussion.

Right DMiller ... I'm not sure about these 200 year old treaties ... but special treatment based on a trace of bloodline seems unfair. Thanks for the link, Jim .... from that they seem to say it really is conclusive all original americans came from one source. So I'm unclear again. I'm not prepared to study much more on what the evidence of haplogroup x means, but I found the Solutrean hypothesis also suggesting earlier Eurpean roots. The Solutrean hypothesis proposes that stone tool technology of the Solutrean culture in prehistoric Europe may have later influenced the development of the Clovis tool-making culture in the Americas, and that peoples from Europe may have been among the earliest settlers in the Americas.[1]. First proposed in 1998, its key proponents include Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution and Bruce Bradley of the University of Exeter.

I take no meds ... well, 2 or 4 beers most days ... You said the thread was "nasty gossip" ... I said that was wrong ... from the start of that thread, you seemed to miss the point that it was specifically about reusing the corps principles ... that some kid name victor paul wierwille is going to "coordinate" it just adds to the weirdness. And then there is the rather mysterious backing by CFF ... I get my way on the political forum? Like you are the only one that can offer other opinions? Dude ... your opinion of your (ex) role there may be a tad inflated ...

It is not gossip at all ... it is questions based on the web site. ... the corps is revived with another victor paul wierwille ... how spooky is that? for a site that has ex corps and ex wayfers ... it is chat worthy ... rocky wants to label it his way ... that is his problem ... I think his comments are nasty ... calling our good querying into way corps two ... nasty gossip ... good grief ... are they going to serve borscht? and wheat berries?

See .. faithfulness pays off ... you got your new car ... let me give you my the new address for the ABS though ... so you are sure to continue receiving Gawd's blessings ...