rhino

This is partly for fun, but partly real curiosity ... vp wanted to get it on all the grooviness a couple guys were part of ... I'm not familiar with "the way west" ... and "the way east"... but I'm just thinking of some of what vp seems to have borrowed ... He did a party on the bus, teaching the mystery...... the magical mystery tour ROA ............................................... Woodstock ... rebelling against the denominations ..... rebels against the government ... high on the word .............................. rocky mountain high HQ /WOW .................................... communal living way corps ..................................... peace corps (formed in 1961) stayed mind ..................................... meditation free love .................. free love (vp had to hide that one mostly) get rid of worldly possessions ...... Anyway ... this was just a side thought from the adultery agenda ... Were there other songs or 60's ideas that vp maybe used for his own ministry foundation? You say you want a revolution? You know we all want to save the world. Got damm, the pusherman ... was vp the pusherman? :o You know the dealer, the dealer is a man With the love grass in his hand Oh but the pusher is a monster Good God, he's not a natural man The dealer for a nickel Lord, will sell you lots of sweet dreams Ah, but the pusher ruin your body Lord, he'll leave your, he'll leave your mind to scream

Yeah ... So what was "the secret agenda"? It does not seem quite clear whether adultery crept in and was allowed and then it overran the conscience of so many and became doctrine ... or was "free love" a motivator from the beginning? Or was the love of money the root of all evil ... there was plenty of that kind of greed floating around as well. NOTHING was kept on the field, it ALL went to Wierwille Owens Wierwille. Considering vp's problems with his previous church, it seems likely sex and money were on his mind from the start. And of course power. But it is less clear if there was a "society" that shared that as an agenda ... or if for most it was more of a "perk", which morphed into a divisive, secret inner circle of players.

This issue is so clear ... IF vp or howard had sex with this woman, they were predators ... if she committed suicide and anyone cannot see the guilt of those predators ... especially as those predators were defensive and showed no remorse ... then anyone defending those that used their power over that woman for their own lusts ... is little better than the predators ... Ministers are supposed to heal the sick ... not ravage them and then condemn them for their weakness ... it does not get much more vile than that .. does it? Unless you consider those that defend those in power that took advantage of the weak ... I really don't see how anyone can be so sick as to defend vp or ha's actions ... even for a non-christian ... I've seen professionals moved to another city for flirting and buying a single co-worker gal flowers ... but in wayworld .. rape or sex is OK, and if she commits suicide ... they wash their hands of the matter ... and humans post here defending that? WOW .... scum of the earth .... holy cow ... or should i say ... sacred cow ... they must defend their god vpw :blink:

Thanks Penworks ... so JohnS was fired even before that last clergy meeting, for daring to research adultery ... good grief ... right Dooj ... I heard rumblings before, but didn't hear PoP till corpse weak ... and on spiders ... And now, dear little children, who may this story read, To idle, silly flattering words I pray you ne'er give heed; Unto an evil counselor close heart and ear and eye, And take a lesson from this tale of the spider and the fly. God Bless ...I love you ... You're the best ...

Hey .. I was just looking today. I actually have one in another tab now. But I want it to record wildlife that is 150 yards away. This one has a 40x zoom which is cool, but it is $300. Amazon has pretty decent prices. I guess you can even get high definition now ... but I didn't see any for my purpose, namely with the big optical zoom. Here is a buying guide ...

Thanks T-Bone and Doojable ... much clearer now ... Maybe I need a timeline ... 1984? lcm humiliates twi with AOS ... football player in tights with girlfriends 1986 POP and follow up rev meeting ... all sane people left (cuz that is when I left ) 1987? people excommunicated just for reading the "devilish" adultery paper 1989 oath of allegiance to lcm as mogfart 199? lcm makes a deal ... becomes ceo of Home Depot 2002 GSC opens ... hundreds get possessed by reading posts .... 2008 v2p2 starts way corpse 2 ... the dead are alive now then on the bottom side of the line ... when the splinter men branched of and started collecting their own abs But anyway ... The Secret Agenda Society really revealed their roots were not in da wurhd when they chose obvious vicster error over any semblance of humility to reproof. It really was a den of iniquity, and they didn't want to give it up. Vic at least built the web (of deceit) ... these current folks are just inherited it ...

Ha ... I was wondering how much of "it" they swallowed before leaving by choice or being ushered out the door. Did they accept adultery was not wrong "don't even read the adultery paper" "willing to spy on friends" "sign the loyalty oath" "accept lcm as mog" sell your house no debt etc. So you have people flowing out at those different points ... Does their new splinter they formed require abs, teach basic same doctrine, never really repent for twi harm they were part of, still revere vpw, etc.? It seems much of the yak twig stuck around ... Gear grabbed the rights to piffle for europe? ... the other wayfers kept the US properties, those down another level branched out to start collecting on their own. Some perhaps just started teaching on their own ... trying to offer an alternative without dogma or without trying to be enriched.

It seems there was some spying on who was doing what, after the twi break up in 1986. Apparently those that recognized the revenue stream, and that were prepared to venture out on their own, were in some sort of power struggle. Maybe this is covered here earlier, but I seem to recall a guy I knew being sent to check out what the different groups were doing. Maybe that was the wayGB way back then. As I recall it was brit sending this guy out to CA to spy, but maybe not. (I may be confusing this with some deprogramming stuff that went on a few years earlier in WV, same guys ) In any case, think of the free for all ... everyone playing God's super hero to keep the great mystery alive ... with the major perk of being able to suck in beaucoup bucks from well trained 15%ers. Then there were those that got promoted by staying with the party line ... while the maybe more sane of the bunch (like penworks) had their moment of clarity and walked back into the "real world" and made a new and better life there. I'm not sure where the secret agenda society broke out ... many stuck together, then some claimed they had seen the light, others later started new splinters and down played the significance of the adultery and other garbage ... shouldn't there be a flow chart here somewhere, so we can follow how all this has played out?

That seems a valid and obvious point ... but such things were commonly overlooked i think ... I remember some corps week teaching I think ... about gematria or something. It was where the letters had numeric values, and you could add the numbers up to come up with totals that supposedly had significance. But they used the Greek, while twi had been teaching the originals were in Aramaic. So I asked someone smart I guess, but it was basically, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". No point in having to answer to clear contradictions. People are more comfortable ust accepting that they have the answers than having to face such facts. Like vp when he mocked the one guy "I have the answer" ... so that guy was vpw. I suppose one could say "all scripture" just meant all scripture, whether it had been written yet or not. But how it was determined to include some "scripture" and not other "writings" is not clear. VP's answer was simple ... if it was wrong, he'd tell us.

Yeah, I like stories, and it is almost bedtime ... :) But really, the more stories the better the overall picture gets painted ... after 20 years, it is maybe easier to look back more clearly. I don't feel I have unresolved issues much, but more clarity on those times is still interesting, and does help understanding those times, and life in general. Every story seems to offer another aspect that is of interest.

Bush has the answer .... My Pet Goat You need to borrow a goat ... put it on a 20 foot rope ... move it around every so often. Maybe two goats ... Or fence it in and keep a share your goat with a neighbor. Of course they will eat everything ...

That is a good point Oak ... and since Jim started off with the business comparison ... it seems to extend to that comparison as well. When you are being sold that new car ... everything is promised, it all looks great and shiny, wow it is exciting. Then you have some mechanical troubles, parts are expensive, repairs become more frequent, and you are still making the big payments. Then you wish you'd read the Consumer Reports more carefully. Of course with twi the sales never ended. But it did change from happy happy joy joy ... to doulos for the Lord. The hierarchy of the way tree replaced joint heirs, one body, members in particular. With the tree, the money all went to the trunk, and there were only three members. TWI sold a dream ... and as you moved up the ladder, if you admitted you were not happy or were not seeing miracles and wonders, then you were admitting to failure. So everyone pretended the emperor had clothes on ... but vic never did any miracles either, except getting away with exposing his nakedness to so many. It became sort of like multi level marketing, the more you had under you, the more successful you were. Except only the top dogs really got any money. The lower dogs got their treats from getting to lord over their flock, and teach and wear special nametags ... it was mostly about ego reward, which really kept the costs down. Mixed in were a lot of people that were deceived, and felt they were working for God. The special features on the WayMobile were what made the devotees feel proud. TWI came loaded with items the denominations didn't have... JC is not God, Dead are not Alive, Good Friday to Sunday is not 3 days and 3 nights, etc. Of course it was true that denominations had accepted some pagan traditions, so that opened the door for the vicster. But he was a charlatan from the start, which is the biggest problem with the TWI business. It was all illusion. PFAL was plagiarized research and made up stories, with tons of repetition. The Corps was not a top notch school of Tyrannus, it was a fledgling attempt that was concocted on the fly. Anyway, Vic's success was in using people ... he sold them a MOGFOT story, got them to stay around for the ego. I suppose he painted a grand enough vision, and organized enough of a structure, to allow his scam to grow pretty big. But it involved so much fraud that it was only held together by more and more lies. In short, TWI costs were so low because it had cult power ... cult devotees giving even their bodies in service to the king. I would hope I would have gotten out, even if vp were still alive.

You probably aren't wearing your thought screen helmet ... and the aliens are making you write that.

Well when I left ... no one said anything to me. I met with two guys that Ralph mentioned walking out of that Dec '86 meeting ... we met through the night after they got back, then I had a TC meeting the next morning ( I had no sleep at all LOL) where the LC from MS came in a gave some "off the word" bs teaching ... and I never went back ... never called them ... just told my twig and a few others that asked what had gone down. But imagine Gear collecting that kind of money ... and he doesn't have an HQ to support ... good grief. People are nuts.

that reminds me, a family in my twig wanted to know what to do with their ABS ... No wonder these splinters started up ... people were already trained to give money through the mail .. now it just had to be redirected ... You get a group of 100 to keep giving to establish a new splinter, and you have some real money. A lot of folks gave maybe $5000/ year. Multiply that by 100 and you have a half million a year. Holy cow ... they could have sent me through a real seminary for that :) I wonder if the splinters are revealing their finances ... or are they even collecting ABS and teaching the tithe? Hi catcup :)

LOL ... good phrase ... but sad if true. I really question these guys judgment that sign the pledge of allegiance, or loyalty oath ... and if they stood around while people were "excommunicated" for reading a research paper that concluded adultery was wrong ... man oh man ... can they really just glide out of that mind set and into "pure" CFF service? Agree ... really it is not the "silly little doctrines" that really make the group ... it is how they operate, the "power structure", the "we are right you are wrong" attitudes, getting people to give their money for some invisible higher purpose. I hope CFF is better ... but as many have said, it seems they have carried a lot of baggage along. I'm curious now ... can't we make open and honest inquiry here? Will they not reveal how they function, what they believe? Surely it is not a secret society, is it? Hide it under a bushel .. NO! Are GSC'ers deemed possessed? Are they afraid of dialogue?

But I was referring to pretty climate models ... like these ... I'm getting mixed signals ...

It does sorta clarify what a hold VP held over these men, and still holds over some even after his death. Why would they possibly want to make the likes of molester vic proud? I just was reviewing some of DWBH's posts, and looking over the CFF believer's page ... there are a lot of familiar names there, and I wonder how many still hold to twi dogma. Since recently learning some of what went down after 1986, I really question the integrity of those that stuck around while good people that left were slandered. I ask myself what they think they are protecting, by compromising themselves so much for twi. Do they still believe vic's repackaging of other's works really sets "his" teachings apart, as divinely sanctioned by Gawd? Do they think they are God's special household of believers? Is that divine knowledge so special that it requires overlooking a "few" fatal flaws? Or, someone here said that an upper innie had said something like, it is not about the Bible anymore ... that makes more sense to me, though I'm not sure they would really admit to that. But the litmus test of the adultery issue seems to have revealed that many chose to put vic's crimes and sins doctrinal heresy above common sense and written laws the Word. I'm very glad I spent my years playing volleyball, fishing, drinking beer, and mardi gras'ing ... instead of trying to make vic's cult dreams live on for another generation. I was connected with wide range of New Orleans folksand events ... not a little group of likeminded wayfers. Yikes ...

Too bad he didn't give a quote of Ann so we could see what she actually said. And he didn't say she "mischaracterized" the study, he said "misused". I would guess Ann quoted the results accurately, but he drew different conclusions from the data. Too bad. Also he does say Antartica has been cooler ... but then he says MODELS show there will be more warming. Models can show anything, but they are pretty to look at. "And climate models created since our paper was published have suggested a link between the lack of significant warming in Antarctica and the ozone hole over that continent." I don't think Ann says there is no warming, and I think your author is mischaracterizing her position. The real question is whether man is causing it and is it bad? IF man is causing it AND it is bad, is CO2 the main cause? if it is CO2, is it feasible to reduce CO2 enough to make any difference. I think even most AGW enthusiasts agree that (even if there was any evidence that it is caused by CO2 and is bad) there is very little we can do about it. It is not the scientists leading the charge on this .. it is Al Gore ... which is why I compared it to the DDT scare ... wrong headed enviro junk science became a political tool .. and killed lotsa people in third world nations. (that I think are finally getting cheap and effective and harmless DDT back to control insects and malaria) But Rachel Carson and the Silent Spring myth still are revered by the enviro cult.

So Hap, you finally came up with proof that reducing CO2 (and crippling our economy) will keep us from warming another one degree in the next 100 years? And have you any proof that warming another one degree in the next 100 years would be harmful, instead of helpful, as it appears to be? How about the millions of humans you killed with that bogus "DDT is killing some birds" report from Silent Spring? Would you care to express your regrets to the families? Surely you were hip for that movement ... right? Enviro nuts haven't changed ... just a new cause .... maybe you can reunite with your SDS buds, and voice your solidarity with the Black Panthers on global warming. Raise your fist in the air brother ... the cause is alive ... :blink: Yours truly, that other R-named poster...

But remember, we have quit producing CO2, so that is why it is cooling ... I'm just glad the glaciers are receding, the world has been much icier through most of its phases ... I prefer warmer ... The MSM is so wrapped up in electing Obama, they won't pursue this story. And we even have Newt sitting with Pelosi saying we have to destroy our economy by enacting laws that will do nothing to stop global warming or cooling ... it is all so insane ....

Well they just have to click their heels together three times ... and say ... "Vic was a charlatan" (throwing a bucket of water on the wicked witch might be worth a try as well ... ) But besides the lockbox intimidation, I think everyone was too intimidated to go against official or unofficial TWI dogma. It just was too much to go against the whole structure and confront established error or wrong doctrine. There was no room for hashing out different opinions or viewpoints. If you disagreed with leadership, YOU were the problem, out of fellowship, possessed ... and subjected to torment. And to go against vp on anything seemed to be breaking the whole ministry ... there was very little middle ground, if any. We all had so much invested in the thang ... and it seemed confronting the MOG was sacrilege. In hindsight, I had a few opportunites to pick up on some clues, aggresively investigate the hints, and challenge what was going on ... but it was never quite in the open, so it was easier to let it go. But maybe you are right Ham, once part of the adultery club, they were much more committed to the wrong doctrine and the secrecy. At that point, they would not only be confronting vp, but confronting their own actions. They were their own separate cult within the cult ... the inner sanctum, behind the big curtain ... More Wizard of Oz analogies I guess ... everyone afraid to confront the great and powerrful Oz ... :( but an intriguing look at our human nature.

Hmmmm ... so maybe vic found LSD ... and during his many trips he invented the hook shot, invented snow on the gas pumps, and invented the idea of stealing everyone else's research and calling it his own ... Too bad it wasn't a magical mystery tour for the rest of us ... (though we were kinda trippin at times ...) Hi Belle, where you been?

What are you going to do with this after you cut it back once? If it is going to become a yard you could just pay to have someone clear or cut it one time ... then do whatever you plan. Or can you just chop out anything too big for the mower by hand? Then just mow it on the highest setting. If you wanted to garden part, you could amend the soil in just that part ...that would hold moisture better than pots, and give you more area for less money. There are probably some grasses or ground cover that would work on the clay and rocky ground, since you indicate something is growing there now. Unless you plan to keep letting it grow up wild, I wouldn't think you'd want to buy equipment just for that one purpose. If you get it cleared once, and pick up the big rocks, then just mowing every couple weeks should keep it from getting out of hand. I think you said 3/4 acre, which is pretty large ... good exercise with a push mower I suppose.

Recent events in my life make me think how important it can be to communicate with our elders BEFORE they pass away. Video and/or doctor verification can be incredibly important. Everything can seem clear, but then dramatic changes can be made by those (trusted?) one or two that have control of a last will and testament. There seems to be a whole lawyer based industry in scamming the true heirs ... those in charge of the money are encouraged to see what they can get away with. Why did vp not confront these guys while he was alive? Why did he leave it to only one man (for the most part) He recorded everything else in his life for posterity ... but this is the unrecorded observations from one man. VP wanted someone he could trust? ... wouldn't video have resolved that problem, if he couldn't deal with the confrontation while he was alive? Was he of sound mind? Did he really say those things claimed? Was he under "undue influence" by Gear? Why was there no video? That would have been so easy. In any case ... the TWI response to accusations that seem largely true ... are insane enough ... and it seems the pop claims are largely true ... though the perceived weight of saving da word (as it had not been taught since the first century) maybe pushed good people into some altered state for a few months or years. It is good to hear a clear report of some of what transpired. Thanks Ralph. (and others that are confirming)