rhino

It seems this is "about the way" twi was NOT biblical research so much ... the research centered around finding ways to back up what vp had concluded already... not exactly the scientific method. Real questions like penworks asked were nixed. It seems helpful to establish that vp started with a lot of assumptions ... like that the original was perfect. Then that what we have is anything close to the original. As someone said ... vp said the greatest of God's works was His Word. ... Of course even accepting those things, vp mangled other people's research pretty badly ... piffle just gave neophytes enough twisted logic to feel superior to others, and to have the illusion of being inside some great new light. If he could just get people to believe the gas pumps story ... he'd have them hooked. Teaching one doctrine, one viewpoint, one MOG ... made things much easier than actual research which considers so many variables that no "consensus" can be readily achieved. But it does take a bold brain to step out of the "chapter and verse" mentality. I think the air is better outside though :) Good points there Oakspear. I can't recall if vp ever tries to discount the problem of when the epistles were written, or if he even acknowedges that Paul did not write them.

It was only maybe a century ago that it actually became a good idea to go to a doctor. Now they are pretty good, but can be so busy that they miss things ... or they push expensive pills, which may help a little but degrade your life because of the expense. and they don't always know the side effects of all those pills. But some things have to be taken care of ... catch those cancers early and life usually goes on a long time. Eat drink and be merry ... but exercise and eat right ... and enjoy life and don't join a cult ... keep thinking for yourself.

Well, they had to sacrifice a few christians before they learned to run away ... perhaps the twelve will be offered up to the innocent, harmless little rabbit program I just want to watch ...

I'm not sure what you are saying ... what is what people would like to think? Yes, it is aggravating that malicious incapable nations that have oil can gain world power from their natural resourse that we enable them to develop, then get more money by investing in capitalism, with the (possible) goal of using those gains to destroy freedom/capitalism ... How would we do that? I haven't researched it ... but I don't think there is good cause to invest (as we are) in ways to "scrub" CO2. CO2 may actually be helpful. But it is the cause de jour (or of the decade) for the democrats, much like DDT was so wrong but still determined elections and policy. I think we waste billions on CO2 fears that are not helping us be more efficient. There are efficiencies of scale ... no reason we have to give that up ... but consumerism is not good either ... much of current society seems addicted to unhealthy, unproductive things ... we've been conned ... I exemplify "simple is good" :) I'm not sure you get what I meant ... solar panel for direct heat ... sun heating air or water that is used to heat the house ... can be done cheaply and efficiently. But I guess you got it .. solar hot water ... yeah, but heating the house is very feasible as well, even in the cloudier Midwest. Yeah, they don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs ... and there is some concern over that in those countries ... but it would appear there are those that don't mind pushing to the limits ... and they don't understand how close they may be ... some say it is already too late.

Jonny started another thread about a slideshow over on the corps site ... Groucho noticed v2p2 is deemed honorary corps there ... Ham ... they only have a couple months to get their twelve ... maybe if they had some of the enlightened read some of our comments, it would inspire them ...

I thought I read that hybrids are more useful in Japan ... because they have more stop and go traffic. My understanding is that batteries are charged by braking ... so stop and go situations make the hybrids more efficient, whereas highway driving runs the batteries down quickly. An advantage of corn to ethanol is it keeps money in the country ... and does a little to reduce oil usage. But corn is not the best plant, at least not yet. But is it unethical to price poor countries out of corn, but it is OK to price them out of energy? Corn has gone from $2.25 to $6.00 while oil has gone from $15 to $126. China and India need to import more and more of our grain ... are we obligated to lower the price for them? I think we are better with corn and soybean prices high ... it will help restore our trade balance. Here is an interesting point ... As a component of the food-versus-fuel debate, there is an economic principle known as "elasticity." Simply defined, this means as incomes move up, food consumption and expenditures change. This is why small increases in income in heavily populated nations like India and China can have major impacts on commodity markets, especially those tied to protein. So we can blame the Chinese ... if they would just stick with their traditional diet, they would not need so much corn and soybeans. I'm not sure the US is responsible to offer the world cheap food, while we are strangled with a ten fold increase in oil prices, and competed against with dollar a day workers in China. We need a lot of nuke reactors, a lot of coal usage, open exploration, develop shale oil technologies ... and maybe better batteries for the places where electric can be used. And quit wasting energy trying to reduce CO2 ... Some sort of solar siding or roofing for home winter heat might make sense one day. Sun to make heat can be much cheaper than sun to make electricity. In all this we still have to be concerned about the US economy ... if we collapse, we may have to deal with the Chinese or russian military ... both of which are using their trade money to build their military. They may be first and foremost concerned about being mean, not green. It sure seems we should have a good clean 55 mpg small car by now. I have an E85 truck that gets about 21 on the highway, but I have never put E85 in it ... they say that might reduce mileage by 20%. It is 8 cylinder, but 4 can cut out when not needed.

Thanks Penworks ... from your site ... I found this in one synopsis ... Perhaps most provocatively, Professor Johnson parts company with much modern scholarship by arguing that Paul, though he may not have literally written any of his letters, should nonetheless be considered the true author of all. So it appears here that much modern scholarship does not even believe Paul literally wrote ANY of his letters. I suppose this guy ascribes authorship to Paul because the letters were based in Paul's expressions/teachings ... or something. But it appears real scholarship has this open debate on the authority of those writings ... in TWI we were indoctrinated from the start ... The Word of God is The Will of God. Case CLOSED. And here is a place that discusses the political side of Paul's claim to being an apostle. Paul insisted on using the title apostle despite never having met Jesus and never being called personally by Jesus because of his vision on the road to Damascus. Paul claimed that the resurrected Jesus spoke to him and called him at that time. Taking the title "apostle" has clear political implications because the original apostles would have had the greatest authority within the growing Christian movement. They were, after all, the ones who had personally known and personally been called by Jesus. This would have put Paul in a secondary position at best, especially given his recent background as an opponent of Christianity. Adopting the title apostle could have been perceived as an attempt to assert equal authority alongside the original apostles, especially since Paul claimed to have been called by the resurrected Jesus rather than by Jesus when he was still alive. On more than one occasion in his letters Paul has to defend his status as an apostle, suggesting that it was questioned by various people Perhaps vp's class should be called the fundamental class, instead of foundational. His foundation seems built on fundamental acceptance of the KJV, and some stolen ideas of other men. Most in twi and even many here, still argue with all those verses accepted as god breathed. Questioning whether the translation is even close, or if Paul even wrote any of those epistles (that disclose the great mystery) seems taboo ... or just too much darn trouble. Paul being the apostle to the gentiles makes for a nice religion ... there is diversification ... the doors are open to everyone. But acceptance of those writings (written by people in Paul's name?) as "God breathed scripture" seems tenuous at best. I think a real foundational class would start with those questions ... and allow room for individual intellectual curiosity to remain. Instead we were taught fundamental dogma ... "it is either all God's Word or none of it is". It seems ironic that we were to study for ourselves, yet we were to study in light of vp dogma. To question vp was to question God' apostle, he was really the only one allowed to interpret the Bible. Remember vp burned all those books in the city dump ... he decided he would just determine The Truth on his own ... hmmmm ... another self appointed apostle. It would be interesting where a truly independent research team could have gone ... diversity in that case would have been a good thing .... but it took the adultery paper to really show just how pervasive the vp dogma had become. But I've had enough Bible searching ... I think the answers are in the garden ... or maybe in the woods ... or on the beach ... or in the wine ...

I'm not sure I'd call it well documented ... it just has one or two sentences on individuals that had bad things happen to them. You could come up with many "real medical doctors" that had killed their patients in various ways as well.

Linda ... I like those yellow flowers, but the seed head that pops up is kinda ugly ... little purple violets in the yard ore nice too ... I'm letting some wooded areas go "native" ... which the deer like for cover ... George ... maybe if you helped your wife plant she would not torment you so ... But as to the maple trees .. that reminds me, I have several thousand that popped up this year for some reason. I may try to kill off the grass (treflan?) and keep the trees ... then thin them in the fall when I see which ones have the prettiest fall colors. Then in three years sell a thousand for $20 each ... :) Hey George, you're a Yankee transplant ... you're doing well down there ... Kit ... sorry about your rose, maybe it will send up a shoot? ... could you get a truckload of good soil for your garden spot? Gardens seem good for the soul .. you can enjoy them when the rest of the world is in turmoil ...

It seems The Way Living in Love did a lot to paint the image of some magical kingdom, or a merry old land of Oz. That whimsical story telling was really a dream ... not a reality. Except the wizard of Oz was a fraud, but basically good ... whereas vp had the traits you listed. It seems those that still follow and revere "his" foundational principles have not learned much. They are willing to overlook his "few indiscretions" and to hold onto da wuhrd. But I'm thinking they are really still clinging to some notion that they are something special ... that they are better than other Christians ... that maybe vp was MOGFOT. They are still trying to hold to The Way Living in Love fairy tale. Of course that is more comfortable to dream, than to accept that we were duped by "a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out)". vpw wanted followers of him ... and some are still following The Way of vpw. :o

Nice gardens Ron and BrideofJC ... Some good ideas kimberly ... I use roundup before I plant, to knock out all the weeds that are there. No chemicals is possible, but seems a lot more work to me. I haven't saved seed much, but that is a reasonable idea for the serious gardner. Of course with all this round-up ready corn and soybeans, you have to agree not to save your seed for growing next year. Good points on the lettuce ... I'm not that diligent and by summer my lettuce is going to seed and getting tough. I'm not quite ready for canning or even freezing too much, but with oil so high, food has gotten more expensive, so saving more of what we grow starts to make more "cents". I saved three boxes of butternut squash, but never even used one ... oh well ... :)

that's the one ....

Three women fall for the same guy eventually they conspire together to destroy him ...

patton?

Whether Peter was written by Peter or in his name ... it strikes me that there is a catch-22 in all of this. Even accepting vp's parameters ... he is using the writings to verify the writings. We were supposed to believe vp was MOG because of what vp said God told him. We were supposed to believe these holy men of God spake as they were moved, because they told us they were moved by God. At least if "scripture" referred to established OT text, it was more solid what was being referred to. But what is there to give any weight to anything Paul or others were writing? We have an OT religion that changed (for some) when JC showed up ... we have some Acts of some apostles and others ... which established a new order of some sort ... but their seems a lot of blind faith to accept any of those new writings over others more obscure that didn't make it to print. With Paul saying all those had left him ... how do we know he stayed faithful? Didn't Peter have his own thing going on? Maybe Paul just made up that story about the snow on the gas pumps road to Damascus. Is there anything to show Paul or Peter had divine authority to tell us how to rightly divide "the divine word"? I haven't seen the signs miracles and wonders from vp or Paul or Peter ... or Jesus for that matter. So what are we really going on? Maybe most of those early writings were established the same way vp established official twi dogma. Maybe the 13th apostle was a rebel against god, and his splinter group story just happened be the one to get widely published? The possibilities are endless ....

I was thinking the other way around ... those stories of werewolves and monsters were inspired by real men that had ravaged communities. The Jekyll/Hyde nature of some of these "sociopaths" inspired stories of monsters that looked normal or even respectable in the light of day. There may be a comic book analogy too ... I'm thinking the Joker ... Jack Nicholson dancing around with his minions ... but the joker wasn't very secretive about his nature. But I'm just saying, this two faced man, good/evil, is a common theme in literature and life. And vp's claim to be MOG with super powers cast him into the mythical genre ... in a sense. So he wanted to be Jesus Christ ... he didn't have the JC initials, but I guess Paul the victor was close enough ... the first Paul failed, so Victor Paul could be the second Paul, instead of the second Adam. :blink: Maybe most organizations or communities have their own "Secret Agenda Society". There was "the Harper Valley PTA" after all ...

Thanks for "sharing" excie ... that does seem quite bold of you to speak to lcm like that ... and I suppose most of us can look back and wonder why we stayed so long. But that was our little fairytale world ... this reminds me of werewolves ... I remember my Mom calling vp "werewolf" ha ...she was right ... but vp werewolf had the ability to shapeshift ... and some seemed to know of this other side .. .the dark side ... it was like an alternative underworld of intrigue going on behind the Christian ministry front. And then there were those that got bitten, and those that became werewolf pups ... or maybe it is more like vampires ... once bitten you took on that nature. Well ... I suppose it is the darker aspects of humanity that led to folklore being written. It takes a fable like story to try to convey the dark "nature of the beast". Maybe I should have paid closer attention to Grimm's Fairy Tales. It probably all fits with a mathmatical exactness. I suppose this fits in with the sociopath thread ... this thirst for new blood superceded all other agendas at the highest levels of TWI, it would seem (with Ralph an apparent notable exception). It shaped assignments many times, and it is hard not to think that vp on corps night, sipping his drink, was just fumbling through his notes while he "taught" ... his mind was really on those corps women in the front row. I think of those dogs Ralph mentioned, that Geer called off I think. Or the "bless patrol" that basically held Ralph's family captive ... They were all dogs ... all brothers ... defending the pack and the alpha male. It was all very Grimm indeed. I'm not sure we got to one of skyrider's initial points I think I said earlier, how could vp not see he was a culprit in leading these men astray. But perhaps he was totally lost in his own ego in werewolf world. His last words were secret ... given to ge-er who knew intimate details of where "the bodies were buried". Maybe VP didn't want his ministry to continue without him as figurehead.

spring has been cool and damp here in western Illinois today I finally planted some things ... Here's the list ... cockscombs, hollyhocks, zinnias, old fashioned variety packs ... all from seed about 40 bean seeds ... derby I think maybe 80 sweet corn, candy corn? and a bunch of black Simpson's lettuce ... I broadcast it with other stuff to keep weeds subdued, and it dies off for summer (or I eat it or hoe it) so it doesn't compete later sunflowers are coming up volunteer from last year still need to buy my tomato plants want to do some honeydew and muskmelon and watermelon a little later plan to take some grape cuttings and start new vines this year also ... Frontenac ... they will sprout in your pocket, and good to 40 below over winter ... :) I guess that is enough to keep me busy ... How does your garden grow?

I tend to think more like you Garth, no excuses, personal responsibility and all ... BUT ... I'm not sure where that practical line is between having the ability to care but not applying caring ... and having that ability so far buried that they are basically incapable of acting on it without an outside threat. A lawyer told me after she went through the haill of lawschool, she was more ready to take advantage of others to get hers. Maybe you can be trained to not care. Lawyers do seem to be taught to win regardless of the right or wrong. My experience says they are willing to do ignore morals and see what they can get away with. The ability to care may become so suppressed that it would never surface without severe shock treatment. :blink: We might as well clinically define that person as "incapable" of caring. Their life patterns have "evolved" to where caring is a very low priority. Winning or even harming may become an obsession. I don't know if that tendency might be genetic as well, or brought on by some intense emotional scarring ... but it seems obvious some are more ruthless than others, so a sociopath would merely be that nature to an extreme ... People talk about being close to "the edge" ... maybe a sociopath is a person who went over that edge. maybe ... or maybe it is just a clinical term for "real arseholes" :o

McDonald's or Wal-Mart would do a better job of teaching them to work. da corpse just handed me a squeegee and let me figure out the rest. Really ... they never taught me anything ... I just went and did the work, and am lucky I survived climbing 30 feet up their class one aluminum ladder. The money for a decent ladder and maybe safety lines went for another vp motorcycle I suppose. I got to work with horses some at Gunnison ... maybe I learned a little about horses then ... but Candy was a townie I think, just taking piffle ... and she had a little temper ... I hope she is well. In the real world you have to learn efficiency to compete, in TWI land they had an army of volunteers that often just stumbled their way through jobs they had no training for. How many volunteers have they rounded up? Maybe they should give us their names so we can be sure they are fully vetted, and they can meet Ham their ombudsman.

Anyone that has weaknesses should be able to trust their minister absolutely. It seems VP's position as minister (or even more so as MOGFOT) puts more burden on him than any previous Joe Sixpacks. A person should expect to be able to open up to their minister or counselor without fear of being compromised. So there is more burden placed on those professionals ... to be professional. On another level, VP was a boss, and had a responsibility to not use that power to pursue his own harmful lusts. He broke this obligation as well. (I know you understand this Shellon, I'm just emphasizing it) I'm not trying to pile on ... vp's sins are obvious ... but Sandra or anyone should have a reasonable expectation to not be abused by a minister or a boss. Both positions carry greater power and responsibility than more neutral relationships. It reminds me of vp's (probably made up) story about the alcoholic ... "I came here for help and you only put me in deeper" IF someone goes to a minister ... it may be as a last resort and when they are most open and vulnerable, which only makes it that much more heinous when that confidence is violated. VP didn't punch people in the nose ... he consistently violated a sacred trust, and made up doctrine to justify his actions. Those malicious acts alone rank right up there with murder in my book ... whether it was ministerial negligent homicide in that case, I don't know. Madness indeed Oldies ... VP's guilt is apparent, regardless of how much he contributed in Sandra's case. As MOGFOT ... what did he do to heal her? He was so "myopic" that he saw her for sex ... but aparently that sex was not so healing as he (and lcm) claimed. Your defense of vp is that she was still alive the last time he saw her? Sandra is one example of the extreme repercussions of VP's malicious abuse of his position, even if he was not fully responsible for her death. Of course maybe worse, was turning a whole group of other possibly good ministers into villains. A church should be a place of refuge from the wolves of the world, but it appears vp turned many of the young (with minds that open and eyes that ask) into lecherous predators or scarred victims (or both).

I think vp said ... "It's the word the word the word .... and nothing BUT the word." Of course he obviously didn't live that life. So he wasn't a bibliolator, he was a fraudster. And he said "it's either all God's Word, or none of it is" You make a good point, about when someone else wants to control what you read ... and how to read it and what it means ... and if you live any other way you are going to haill .... A. You must obey God ... so obey his word B. Only we can rightly divide his Word ... we must be likeminded Gardening is more wholesome ... it is that time here ...

I don't have it, but I think you are referring to Wi-Fi .. if he was close enough to someone that has it he might pick it up, I think. I know someone in an apartment that just picks hers up from a neighbor ... But I get my land line plus DSL for $40/month. Possible he could save on his cell if he had a regular land line.

Right, that one came to mind, but I didn't have a name ... let's see ... PFAL ................. grass Advanced Class ......LSD Corps .................coke head ordained .............shooting up horse

We hope not :) I view ALL scripture as a serious attempt to carry on some ancient traditions and beliefs. There is, no doubt, much to learn from these men and women, but I don't give any of them credence as having been breathed by God, so this question is just academic to me. I don't let my amateur status stop from philosophizing. Still it is interesting that vp never really delved into this aspect of what "scripture" was being referred to. For a research ministry, it would seem a rather obvious first question ... he talks about having no originals, but then mostly defaults to the KJV as being accurate in determining which writings to include. I think once vp had his pfal product, he wasn't much interested in ideas or questions that would rock the boat. If he pointed out errors (or if, god forbid anyone else did) it weakened his product and made sales more difficult. Plus it was hard on his ego. I wonder how often the way research team "buried" or ignored research that conflicted with fundamental vp dogma.