bliss

I completely understand your position, and no problemo! Thanks for the prayers. Yes, its hard to even talk with family, because they don't ''go deep'' anymore. They want to keep it so basic and dull, it's very hard. The times we did, it was UGLY. So, they like to live in happy happy joy joy land.................and thank The WAY for giving them a life (cough cough) worth living. Quote: " If it wasn't for The Way, I'd be on drugs or dead" or "I am so thankful, if it wasn't for The Way, I wouldn't have met my wonderful husband." I always come back with ''If it wasn't for GOD, you'd be that way!" Stop giving them the credit! Or I say, "So, if you met your hubby in a bar would you frequent and owe allegiance to that bar even though it's gone to the dogs?" ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh It's no use some times. That is why I just leave it to God. It's like talking to a wall.

Thanks Belle , and yes, it was more rhetorical, but I do appreciate everyone's opinion. I agree with everyone too. I also know, that I am not their ''best friend'' and nor will I ever be................I think that if I had to see them on a regular basis, or even on the phone, it would be different. No, I wouldn't keep my mouth shut, I know it. But, right now, communication stays to ''the weather'' if even that and goes no further. Nor, in the position I am in (with many family member still IN) and them being ''family'', it just wouldn't be profitable for me to ''confront'' them at this stage. Like I said, if God opens the door, I'll be there. As far as why they don't leave and go with CES etc.....it is because of their screwed up beliefs that they are ''copouts'' and dogs for leaving in the first place! I am sure it has to do with status too. whatever. They make their own bed. My conscience is clear.

We've told them plenty about what we were unhappy about. I don't feel the need ( at this point) in telling them, ''I heard on the internet that you did A , B , C................whatcha gonna do about it? Is it true? " Talk about the defenses going up! That wouldn't go far. You are right and I agree that those around them aren't going to hold their feet to the fire. But, since they know we aren't ''standing'' anymore, they hold their tongue plenty. I wouldn't call our relationship ''close'' anymore. But, to be expected. They know we've gone the Christian route, yet still send cards and emails. So, if God opens the door........(we did knock already) we will barge in, believe me. What I believe is that God is the one that will work on their hearts when and if they are ever ready. Whether I plant a seed, or someone else, no matter. I came to GSC and found out all this stuff before I left. What prompted me to search? It wasn't that something bad happend to me or someone made me mad. The opposite. We were actually better (in life) than ever before (no craig, no yelling...new home..) and yet, I still felt a calling to leave. It all started when I took time to digest Prov. 3..........................................................

Ignorance is NOT bliss in this situation. It isn't hard for me to acknowledge that they have done wrong. I am not" in"anymore, even though they TRIED to convince us to stay. (B&D) I guess never being the object or (victim) of their wrath, and being a"younger'' peer has somewhat affected how I view them. Heck, we've even ''reproved'' them before. (and we were NOT their leadership). They humbly apologized. They have sold out to the ''message'' of the bible the ministry teaches. They really don't think there is anywhere else to go. ( JCNG, DNAN, etc.....) They told me point blank that they don't believe for one minute that the ''minstry is the Word, and the Word is the Ministry". That it is just the vehicle they use to talk and teach about God. I don't agree with their reasons for staying. I don't agree with ''covering up'' the situations of abuse. I never saw this ''evil'' behavior from them. Only heard. That doesn't mean they didn't do it. But, if I am a friend, then, I will be one. What am I suppossed to do? Dump them? Sorry, my beliefs in Jesus to love them where they are at, tell me otherwise. I will tell the truth as I see it. But, how can love help them, if I don't love. I take a more optimistic approach I guess. Their son though is just fighting for the only thing he knows. Sure he's trying to make it good by (fruitless)''works'', but he thinks it's worth fighting for. (no apology is typical for their belief system anyway.........don't expect that unless they wake up and leave.) Blind leading the blind. Sooner or later, they will fall in the ditch. I just pray that they see before it happens.

Hey, I wish above all things that he would change. But, under the current doctrinal delisions they live under, repentance is a far cry from their conscience. Personally, he never did anything wrong to me. That is why I am on this side of the fence. But, you have every right to be mad. I guess because I ''love'' them, I am sensitive to name calling is all. When I made a list of about 20 things I would need to see change before I even graced The Way's presence again.........(one was an apology) ,his PA said "Well, maybe those things will be addressed, SOME DAY!" Now, those things could be done, and I still wouldn't show up for fellowship, but that was 2 years ago..... So, I know they are not stupid, just stupidly loyal.

The contact info says St@nl&y G00dsp##d in Indianapolis. I don't know if he was partners, or not, but the Family Tables guy is J0hn Br0wn from St. Pete, Florida. I know, because I used to help ''moderate'' the Family Tables.

I don't know, Belle, not many kids really ''know'' what bad their parents do. I have spent much time with them all in this family, and it was always (to me), that they were disgusted by what Craig did. Always trying to make sense of it all. If Dot personally knew of VP, and Craig for years, she never let on one iota that she knew, or agreed with the behavior. Nor do I believe that Brian knows anything that his mom ''may have'' participated in. I won't judge their hearts, nor will I say ''none of them knew''. But, hanging out with them as peers, I noticed a very upsetting and a "let down" countenance. Bolshevik- I am sure he said nasty stuff to ya. I sure did. Anyone that was a leader under Craig in the 90's had a lovely disposition with that behavior. Heck, I am sure some of my ol friends from fellowship would say that I could be a real beeeaatch!It was par for the course in that era. I have since apologized and repented. Only because I realized how wrong my behavior was, even though I was only following orders!

Hey Bolshevik, was that a neccessary comment? Come on! They really do need prayer. He has NO idea that what he's doing is not ''on the Word". He really is trying to make a difference. He did/does not condone what Craig did. He was a mess at the time over it. The problem is most of the staffers at the Way do not know about ol VIC. They just can't believe it. (or don't want to). :blink: As long as they think their foundations are sure, they don't see a reason to leave.....they want to stay and fight. I don't agree at all. I think they can perfume it all they want, its still a hog! But, I still am friends with them. I support them as people, not the ministry they so blindly follow. :(

I had a midwife for my second, and have another one for my third! love you guys. I really have to put my trust in the Lord on this. He knew my children before they were born. So, whatever (x or Y) gets in first, is what He wants me to have! I have to believe this for my sanity :) :unsure:

Thanks DWBH, this topic is a big one in my family's life. More on the personal repentance aspect than forgiveness though. But, to answer your question on my thoughts............ I believe they(all of the above) get forgiveness from GOD, when they repent. Which they haven't (not publicly anyway). So, they will have to answer to HIM. They get forgiveness from ME, when "I"give it. I will not allow them to have the power over me by being mad, angry, bitter, and unforgiving.................... So, I forgive them, for MY SAKE, not theirs.

I remember my test for the Adv class like it was yesterday! It was open book (bible), and so with a little help from a freind........................ who just happend to take it the week before, told me the jist of everything on it. So, with my little itty bitty writing, and blank pages........I copied down all pertinent info from JCING, ADAN, RHST, PFAL...............and more! I remember these questions: When was the King James put together-? 1611 Name the 4 gospels.....................duh..............of course my roomie at the time had to ask me the answer to that one. I passed with a very high score (nudge nudge) ok, so back to fairies...................................

This is our favorite movie. I highly recommend buying it. This part in particular is one of the best. When we watched it (with our kids) for the first time.......................we cried like babies. Mr. Bliss NEVER cries in movies. But after all the heartache and journey we've been through since leaving TWI, this movie was an emotional release and some fresh air! He cries even after seeing it for the 4 th time. It is also my kids favorite movie. Very inspiring. Praise Him if we win OR LOSE............................is the lesson. It's not what you DO FOR HIM, its what you allow HIM to do THROUGH YOU! oooops , there goes the ''believing'' theory.................... :blink:

Thanks WW! Nothing like getting an answer from my 2 favorite authors! I really feel the same way. I lived in ''fantasy'' land as a child, and it helped me search and wonder about the world and its Creator!

I have them somewhere, Shifra. Not sure when I could get to em. I used to work for Doc Rawlins. She taught me a lot of stuff regarding that. If you want to PM me, I'd be glad to tell you. It gets pretty graphic! :blink: But, I have to tell you. I did everything BY THE BOOK of Doc Rawlins, and for me......................................... it never worked!

You all are too funny. ''Read-anon" , I like it~ I am blissfully addicted to more sci-fi fiction most of the time. I of course am a big LOTR fan, as well as Eragon (hated the movie though, gag). I used to like the Left Behind Series as long as I keep them in the ''fiction'' category. I have since changed my earlier beliefs.................... Of course I love Historical books, if you call 1776 that, but anything biblical and historical I love. I can put those down a lot easier. Forget self-help. I can milk those for weeks. Not my fav, but some can inspire/help. While I know when I have too much going on to get swept away...................I will abstain from such lunacy. But, when the waves die down, I am on my way to get those Outlander Series books!!!!!!!! I can see seeking penance from fellow sinners is like pulling teeth.................

:blink:

Awh shucks AD. :) That's nice considering I don't start many :) Larry, I can't recall a HQ directed teaching on not talking too much about dvspirits. It def could've been shared locally though.

HI Mark! Yes, I have watched that skit much! WE love it. It really is moving. Notice Jesus is the focus, he is fighting her addictions, tempations, habits................he's fighting for her life! He gets the glory NOT the MAN OH GAWD! love it.

OK, so this may not apply to some of you. You may not have ever noticed, cared or had to deal with it. It was prevelant at one time in The Way. But here is the deal. At least, I am trying to figure it out. It is all devil spirit related of course....... Now that we are not in The Way anymore, I have come across all sorts of people with different beliefs. Mine have drastically changed of course, and to some, maybe relaxed in cetain categories. The Devil spirit category is one of them. I still believe (to a point) in demons etc.... but not as powerful as we used to make them. I meet some Christians that think the devil and demons hide behind every nook and cranny! It's ''the adversary of doncha know"? So here is my dilemma..... My children play with a certain child whos parents attend a charasmatic church here. That is great. Fellow Christians, no problem. Until he starts telling my youngins about the ''devil''! Now, my kids know enough about him, that he exists, God's enemy etc...... but I don't tell them he is in their bedroom!!!! This kid, bless his heart, is just relaying what mum and dad say, but holy cow. He's 7 mind you..........and he says "One night, the devil came in my dad's room and tried to kill him He suffocated him with a pillow!" or " God hates fairies!" or "Harry Potter is of the devil. Magic is of the devil" ok I know while in The Way, I totally shunned any movie or book that had witches, fairies or magic. But, I can't for the life of me, understand why????????? I used to say all those things were full of devil spirits. But, now this doesn't make sense to me. Is there a verse or something I missed? I know how to teach my kids the difference between good and evil. But I also let them be kids and have fun. Now, if it was tarot cards or ijoua boards then he!! no..........but fairies? Magic? Too over the top for me. Every time they play, my kids come running to me scared and telling me what he said! I know it's innocent. Kinda like when I was so crass to say ''Jesus wasn't born today, (xmas)". or "There is no Santa Claus"..........People looked at me the way I am reacting to him I guess..... <_< <_<

Yesm , I feel ya Psalmie........I try to get all my fiction from the library too! I am a sicko for sure. Good idea doing it on a weekend......although, then I would really be ignoring the family. Ahh, the colon cleanse. Why that isn't penance for me, since I do them anyway about 2x a year!

Yes, Happy Birthday Jesus! If it's today or another day, no matter. He deserves all days to celebrate HIM. Thanks Rainbows Girl. :) Now, I give you the best Christian band (IMO) to celebrate: Third Day uhhhhh.............hold on <embed src="http://godtube.com/flvplayer.swf" FlashVars="flvPath=http://godtube.com/flvideo1/24/19394.flv&flvTitle=Brought to you by: GODTUBE.COM" wmode="transparent" quality="high" width="330" height="270" name="flv_demo" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /></embed> <embed src="http://godtube.com/flvplayer.swf" FlashVars="flvPath=http://godtube.com/flvideo1/23/18596.flv&flvTitle=Brought to you by: GODTUBE.COM" wmode="transparent" quality="high" width="330" height="270" name="flv_demo" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /></embed>

Yea, Belle.......................Thanks for more great books to read, I am trying not to hover over the titles as to be directed right to Barnes and Noble! TYVM I do feel better gettin this off my conscience, and I forgot to tell ya, it was raining that day..........but still.................... so far, I am not worthy of penance? Come on Socks, get it together! I need absolving and cleanzing! :unsure:

"Forgive me Father, for I have sinned........It's been............................uhmmmm........................ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh???...........................it's been......................ehem.......20+ years since my last confession......... I can't take it anymore. I have a secret sin that is just eating me up. I need to confess this sin in my life before I do more damage! Whenever I get a new book to read.......mostly novels ( I get non-fic mostly, but don't have this prob) that are good, I start reading them............................................................................ .............................. and reading them.................................................. and I CAN'T PUT THEM DOWN! Literally. 8 hours straight I will read it. Ignoring all other wifely, motherly, and social duties. How awful is that~? I just can't help it. I have to get to the end of the story. This latest one was called ''The Last Sin Eater" by Francine Rivers. It was really good. Do you think there is any hope for me?

Weird, I don't remember Solomon preaching at people (writing scriptures...) AFTER he fell into idolatry. He was sinning to God yes, but, was he hurting people too? I dunno. I think the example is ridiculous. Doc Vic preached and wrote WHILE he was drugging and sexually harrassing women. Yelled from the pulpit and wanted us to think he was ''so righteous''. He was trusted and looked upon as the one to emulate.......all the while lying and manipulating. Solomon was in the boundaries of his law (many wives) and broke God's law by following other gods..... maybe I am missing something. :unsure:

Hi Steve! Yes, I have been studying the ''Orthodox Preterism" view for some time now. Not the heretical, full or ''Hyperpreterist'' belief that Jesus returned to earth and all judgements are final now view. This seems to be the direction you are headed with the belief in a rapture then. Am I right? Do you believe that all is over? No judgments left? I do believe that the destruction of Jeruselem and the Temple in 70ad was a fulfillment of many prophesies.......... and that the whole ''Left Behind'' series has plagued many well meaning Christians, into a sort of gloom-doom life. But I don't believe that Jesus had returned for the judgements. I don't believe in a ''rapture'' or ''gathering together''. I believe when he comes back, judgement time. For those interested in studying this topic, I suggest to check out www.preteristsite.com She has ooodles of info on there. As well as www.tektonics.org Great sites for this kind of study. I was so disappointed in my lack of knowledge concerning religious history and what really befell Isreal in those days. Josephus records many of the horrifying incidents when Nero's gang from Rome destroyed the temple and the people there.