irisheyes

Oh, is that so? (I kinda did it on purpose.) How about a clue? It's way old. Late 70's. Could be from today easily, huh?

MStar: How'd you do the bug thing?

Okay, here goes: Adulterers in churches and pornography in the schools, You got gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules.

Instant Karma John Lennon And we all shine on ....

JJ: Good points, bro. Here's one for ya. In Daniel it says he prayed three weeks for something and an angel finally came and said he had been fighting with the devil for three weeks to get there to take care of it. So, it is possible that there's so much behind the scenes we don't see or know about. Interesting thought here: It's quite easy for us to say that something is unfair (hey, umpire, why didn't you call a foul when that jerk tripped my kid?) when it is against US, but what about the times something unfair happens and it's in our favor. Are we so quick to bring that to the ump's attention? That is kind of how I think of prayer these days. I think God answers our prayers, I just think sometimes the answer is "no" and we just can't accept that. Then there are times things are going our way and rather than thank God for it (as in all good things come from the Lord), we complain about the bad stuff and never give God the glory for the good. And then there are times things are going on behind the scenes as in "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." I have three kids. I want them to talk to me (most of the time). I think God wants us to talk to Him, too. Silly? Maybe. I have a niggling doubt about the OT and death. It involves sin and I haven't quite gotten to the point of being able to express it in words, but hopefully I'll get there. You ARE SO RIGHT! It is confusing and I'd love to know how others justify it or not. Any bites?

I totally agree. I don't know if that makes us right, but it's good to know people can still agree on things. I am sorry you are living with such an awful disease. Once when I ran a PFAL class one of the students who was diabetic didn't show up. I couldn't get him on the phone or to answer his door or anything. Finally, I called the cops and they opened his door and there he was near dead because he was 'BELIEVING' to get healed from his disease. Instead he had put himself into a diabetic coma. Of course, I was blamed for him missing a session. Goodness. I liked that you said you were stronger in spite of your illness. Good for you!

WG: Have to put in my feelings. I think what everyone else said was awesome. I agree that they are two separate things; foreknowledge/predestination. Does not John 3:16 tell us that God so loved the world.... good and bad, believer and unbeliever, etc. GS is great because we can get other peoples views that sometime help us see the whole picture. We may just be looking through the peephole, so to speak. Of course, sometimes it just confuses us more. :blink: Does everything happen for reason? Perhaps. Look at the story of Joseph. He told his brothers when all was said and done that they meant what they did to him for harm, but God meant it for good. Providence. Had Joseph not been in Egypt and gone through what he did, he wouldn't have been in the position to save Israel from starving to death. Wasn't there an easier way for God to accomplish this? Surely seems like it. But perhaps that is where free will comes in. God works with what He can. Joseph's brothers hated him and gave him to slavery....but it also took Joseph a long time to get out of that mess and into another and out of that mess and into another .... however, Joseph ALWAYS gave God the glory. Perhaps that's the lesson we should reap from the whole account. God can work with us when we are humble and realize we can't do it ourselves. Of course, sometimes it takes us to be at rock bottom (like Joseph in prison) before we turn to God for help. As they say, YOU NEVER KNOW HOW MUCH YOU NEED GOD UNTIL HE'S ALL YOU'VE GOT.

[quote name='JumpinJive' date='Nov 25 2007, 12:52 PM' post='383741 So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible. -JJ JJ: No offense, man, but I do believe there are things in the Bible that are literal. I think God has the ability to protect stuff He wanted us to know. Perhaps I am being naive, but if someone is going to believe the devil is a concept, someone else can believe that God is a concept also. Just suppose the devil is a reality and we ignore him. Do I think he's running around throwing poison darts at who he will? No. I think he probably has the system set up to take its course. Actually, I'm not sure about what else I believe on the matter, hence, this thread. I am trying to make sense out of why the majority of people blame God for death when the Bible says the exact opposite in the New Testament. Because I certainly understand that it seems God controlled death in the Old Testament. I know somewhere there's a scripture that man would live for x-amount of years according to God. So, perhaps not all death is the enemy? At any rate, as someone already said, death is the last thing I wanna do, I just wanna know about it.

Bliss, Loved your logic. I must agree that we have life here on earth to further his kingdom,....and help others for Him. We are His hands and feet. We are not here to further our kingdoms. And, once again, logic scores a big point with me because why be here on earth if it is like heaven? Not that we are here to suffer, but that perhaps we are here to see how well we do looking at the whole picture. Jesus certainly gives us an example of what to do on earth. Help those in need. Not those who have it all together. So, perhaps the saying that it's not what life throws at us, but how we deal with it, is what really matters. Thanks for your time and input.

Todd, is the Center for Spiritual Formation connecting to the Center for Spiritual Living that Patrick has talked about? Roy was kind enough to do a search for me on death on Greasespot, so as I go through those cites I am sure I'll be seeing your views. I have certainly delved into Celtic beliefs to a degree. I get sidetracked I'm afraid with their cute little faeries, etc. No, honestly, it is something I am just beginning to learn about. I went to your website--will try to look at it more thoroughly when I can. I don't think I am looking to find the ANSWERS per se (if that's even available). I am aiming to give people the option of not blaming God when the crap hits the fan. Thanks!

Sorry about your brother. I lost my "baby" brother a couple years back to hep c. It sucks. I must say, however, that your above quote was awesome. I laughed at some of the other stuff, too, but sometimes just plain old logic wins out, ya know? Jesus never went to a funeral. I have a neighbor who lost her daughter (at 15) two years ago. She will tell you straight up she would rather be in heaven with her than down here. That always blows my mind because I think if I really believed, if she really believed that, why would any of us bother with life? Why shouldn't we love life? Sure there's bad mixed in with the good, but when it's good.... Anyway, THANKS!

Goey, don't go get all frustrated. Your "arguments" are honestly presented and logical, very logical. I enjoyed your reasoning, as I enjoyed most of the others. I feel I need to add my 2 cents, too. Solomon, first of all, taxed the Israelites, too. His outlandish "need" for a house bigger than God's temple wore the people out. His "sin" however, was not materialism as much as it was idolatry. He was warned not to get mixed up with unbelieving women and their gods. He ignored the warning and by the end of his life he was worshipping their gods. I mean I think he had something in the area of 1700 women! But, I really think the point made that Solomon wasn't using God to get rich, is not quite right. He used his position to feed his ego and build his empire. Still, though the Old Testament is full of examples of rich men who loved God, the New Testament is not. How come no one has mentioned the lifestyle of Jesus himself? Yet though he was rich, he became poor? I'm not sure if that means materially; it doesn't really matter though. How many of us lead the life he led? How many of us are God-minded 24/7? I live a comfortable life. I'm by no means in J. Meyer's catagory and I honestly couldn't live with myself it I was. Money brings responsibility if we use it correctly. And that's all it should be for any of us. A means to an end. Jesus didn't have a big house, a big car, a big IRA. He didn't even have a pillow. Shouldn't we be doing as he did? Of course, times are different. I really wonder though if it matters to God how much money we have/don't have or what really matters is how we live, love and honor Him. Lots of those guys in the Old Testament did unspeakable things. Murder (Moses and David for starters); Paul in the NT. God forgave murderers. God even gave Cain a chance to repent. And, we need to spread that grace to people who aren't using what God's given them for the right reasons. Didn't Paul say that whether good or bad at least the gospel is spread? None of us are perfect. If in the end little old Joyce Meyers "suffers" (or whatever) for her life style, just be thankful it isn't you in her shoes. Lots of people still think the health and wealth ideal is biblically correct. You'd be fighting thousands, when instead you could be winning them. We ALL fall short of the grace of God.

[i'm thinking that Paul meant that the Ego self or Egatic self is put to death....the old man that did not consiously line himself up with Spirit. Old beliefs that manifest as bondage are replaced with propper thinking as we renew our mind. So we could look at the annihilation of the old, and the replacing with the new, as death to the old man. Life in the new man.......Christ. Patrick Patrick, I think that makes sense. I should have looked up the context, but I didn't. Thanks. Are you named after St. Patrick? Bliss, will definitely check out the devil cite. Thanks! CMan: You lost me ....

WS: Look, I did it! However, the 'color' command is printing. Now what? And, thank you for clarifying your concept idea. It makes much more sense to me now. Especially with God having human attributes. FOS, makes it more real than real. Not sure though what Paul meant about dying daily. Mentally? Physically--as in we ain't gonna last forever, so we die a little bit everyday? Could think of a few songs with some great lines along that line, though. Ha. Actually, when you think about songs talking about death, lots of them "blame" God. That is the crux of the issue I have with the whole topic. And then, they call today Black Friday.... Evan, talk about clinical funerals. Good grief! Where's compassion? Comfort? Makes me sick. It was the dead person's fault because they quit believing? I mean can you stand it that people actually said that crap? No better than the world's responses--it was his time; his number was up; it was God's will; yadayadayada. Maybe my book will only come up with some new responses when that situation confronts us, but maybe we need some too.

Lots of semantics here though. I guess this would fall in line with 'concepts' in a way. The 'concept' of death is being separated from our loved ones. Anything really attributed to death must be a 'concept' because we have no idea what the reality of it is, except of course that we quit breathing, our hearts stop beating, etc. I must say I think Jesus was trying to tell us by loving our enemies that we could help them overcome hate which would probably cause them to be unbelievers. But, let me go a step further. I think there's a scripture were it says something about heaven and us being seated with our enemies. What if it's our enemies and how we treat them that will be our ultimate "judgment"? The O.T. talks about revenge in places. Not so the New. I was part of a discussion this past week on righteous anger. Like when Jesus threw people out of the temple. We came to the conclusion that righteous anger was probably a reaction that dealt with the root of the problem without letting emotions take over. So, there goes revenge out the window. How many of us were able to have righteous anger about TWI? Did anyone ever get right back in LCM's face. I'd love to know. I didn't stick around long enough to find out. But, way off topic, there. Yes, bottom line must be love, love, love. But can we ever reconcile love with killing all the first born (at passover)? What about slaying 400 prophets at once? How's about Sodom and Gomorrha? Stuff like that and deciding about what the Bible says about death gets me crazy. Cman: I think your take on reality is real. Love it.

Patrick, Got more out of your answer this time than last. I knew about "The Secret." I dismissed it once I learned what it entailed. I guess I'm not ready to accept TWI may have had a point about believing. Not the way they used it anyway. I think you hit on a big thing in your answer and that is the difference between a belief and believing. Noun/verb. I have often wondered how Jesus did the awesome stuff he did. Was it just a matter of mind over matter? (Clever, huh?) I guess I am just a logical thinker. I want black and white, not color. I want things that are easy to explain, easy to understand. I don't necessarily get everything you are trying to convey. But, I am glad you've taken time to help me out and hope you won't think I'm too dumb to work with here. I'm glad you've found a place you feel good about and comfortable with. Happy Thanksgiving! P.S. The soul stuff was real neat though, got that. Oakspear: I agree with your view about believers thinking death is the enemy. After all, that is what it says. But, like you said, is it always evil? I wouldn't consider dying in my sleep some night necessarily evil. I mean, I'm not gonna get out of here alive, unless the Lord returns for me. So, all in all, I can't say I'm afraid of death. Maybe just the process. What do you believe?

(Took "the class" in 1972) Me, too, Shelter Island, NY Now take that one step farther. Perhaps he's not a spiritual creature, but, rather, a metaphoric concept that represents some larger truth. Again, the reality is still there, but your perception has been once again altered. Ditto on the devil spirits and power surrounding this whole subject. You see, it does not nullify the scriptures that pertain to this subject. I hope this means I caught on and your instructions were "easy to follow". Thanks. Anyway, maybe I'm plain stupid, but I dont' understand how you can call a metaphoric concept a reality. To me a metaphoric concept is way intangible. A concept is intangible. A metaphor represents something like something, right? I get that, I think. The "devil" is like evil or bad (vs. good). Correct? Do you feel the same way about God? Is He a metaphoric concept also? Is He the good vs. your evil? Just trying to understand.... Oh, well, I still need some practice on the color thing,huh?

CMan: Thanks for the info. I haven't seen The Quest. Is it something I could rent? It sounded quite interesting. Anything, like the other cite, that tries to help people deal with death is a-okay to me.

WS: I haven't been able to figure out how to copy a piece of someone's answer yet. Seems my computer has more brains than I do. Anyway, I totally understand about putting God in a box, so to speak. When did you get away from TWI? I know we have had to sift through what we were taught; however, I do think the devil is real. I mean, what do you do with all the scriptures about him and devil spirits? Especially in Jesus' time. Lots of spirits written about. What about Ephesians 6 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. We still wrestle. Though I have never been face to face with that realm, I still think there is something to say for knowing about your enemy. Don't all these coaches study the opposing teams so they can learn their strengths and weaknesses? And the military does likewise. Just wouldn't want you to get broadsided if you aren't right. WG: I hope I'm remembering what everyone wrote that I wanted to comment on and getting it right I think you said you don't believe people go right to heaven/hell when they die. I know that was what TWI taught and as yet I haven't been able to find much to contradict that. But, here's a thought you may already realize: Since there is no time in death, no consciousness, once we die the very next instant will be eternity for us. So, I figure if I live to be 80, I have a few more years to go before I see the Lord, but that's it. If he doesn't return til 5020, I won't know that, all I'll know is however long my life lasts here. That is a great comfort to me, as people believing their loved ones are in heaven is a comfort to them. I understand that too. And Roy: Good grief!! Thank you so much for taking the time to look up all that stuff and forward it on. Now I have something to do tonight (just kidding). It will probably at least take me til tomorrow to read it all. Honestly, I appreciate it so much and I am anxious to get through it. Have a great holiday y'all.

WS: thanks for your answer to Patrick. I wasn't quite sure how to put in words how I felt, but you seemed to do it quite well. I must say I agree. There has always been a side of society which thinks believing is the be all and end all. However, as for TWI, it was a way to blame the average Joe believer and always have him in guilt and striving for something unattainable. Anyway, that's how I feel. Now, about your issue of death and the devil; do you not believe in his existence or do you not believe he has power?

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Roy, thanks again for your response. Glad to think this topic hasn't been talked to death (pun intended). You are so right about pureness and helping people through stuff. That is my goal with my book. I don't believe God wants us to hurt. Shoot, I don't want my kids to hurt. Most of the time anyway. And death hurts. And I'm pretty sick and tired of the standard answers like it's God's will and it was their time, etc. I am even more concerned that people blame God for something that is not His doing. So, it takes a lot of discussion and knowledge to get to an answer or an explanation that is somewhat of a comfort. Of course, I have my theories and explanations, but nothing spiritual can really be put in a little box with a pretty bow, you know? I don't want to say stuff that is wrong, so I fell I have to look at as many options as possible. Have a blessed day!

Patrick and Sara: How do you deal with scriptures such as death is the enemy and the devil has the power of death? How do you reconcile God is light and God doesn't tempt man and then read something like God tempted Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? I think I understand your basic theory that the Bible is a book about good versus evil. I, too, feel that sometimes perhaps we try too hard to make it all fit when perhaps God is trying to just teach us how to live together as a family. However, from your reply it seems to me that you think everyone is of God here on earth. Is that what you believe? Then how do you explain what some would call unfairness? Like how come some people are healthy, rich, etc., while others are terminally ill or starving? Let's face it, there are a lot of hungry people in the world. Where is God in their lives? Thanks for taking time to give me your views.

Thanks Roy. I enjoyed reading your views and they have given me good food for thought. As you, I too am curious as to other's thoughts. Perhaps this is a subject that has been poured over before?

Am researching for a book on Death. If the devil has the power of death according to the New Testament, what about the Old Testament? How does one explain the plagues? the flood? the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel? To say that the devil couldn't be mentioned then is wrong. He's mentioned as early as Genesis 3 and other places, particularly Job.