irisheyes

Gen-2: If we needed to know every single detail don't you think it would be a whole lot clearer? I often wonder that myself. I do think, however, that the church was meant to operate efficiently within the realm of human error. There are checks and balances. There should be ways to get along even if we don't agree on every little thing. I kinda think that just like there are Republicans and Democrats in these here United States, there were and are democrats and republicans within the church. Like in Jesus' time. There were the Pharisees (liberal) versus the Saduccees (hardcore). Maybe that's a pretty lame example, but if you consider how the Old Testament books are written from different points of view at times, you could almost think that is what has been happening since the get-go. Regardless, although TWI didn't have the right intentions they might have been right with the small group theory. No one can handle all the needs in the church. No way anyone could keep track. Like when Moses had to DELEGATE. Acts is a great example of how the church learned to delegate and keep tabs on everyone so no one was missed, so the widows got fed, etc. If we know we are supposed to take care of each other, the how isn't really so important. It's the doing it that counts. And, I am not assuming you don't already know this. Or even agree. But, will we all ever agree?

I obviously don't have how to reply correct, but this is for Waysider. And, I imagine, I might ruffle some feathers: Luke 1:1-4 "Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed." I almost fell over reading this a few weeks ago. Luke's gospel starts with an affirmation claiming he decided to write this account after studying the eyewitness accounts, etc. Luke goes on to set forth his own claim. "In the Greek text, these first four verses comprise a single sentence, the purpose of which is to impress, to underscore the trustworthiness of the ensuing narrative, and thus to gain a favorable hearing." This type of narrative is to provide a faithful accounting of the significance of what has happened not to prove that these things actually happened. (NIB p. 1851) Whether what is quoted here is accurate or not, the fact still remains that Luke makes it clear he decided to research the facts and he decided to write them down. He was not an apostle. He was not even an eyewitness. Was he inspired? I certainly hope so, but that is not what he has stated. Even in Acts 1:1 he says "I wrote about all that Jesus did..." Me, myself and I: Luke. So, bottom line, you have something there in wondering if all of what Paul wrote was actually "revelation." Sure I can hear the argument now that if I can throw out Luke, so and so can throw out Acts, or whatever. But, honestly, what on earth is Luke saying if he isn't saying this was inspiration???

Sunesis: You seem to have left out a whole group of people and I realize you may have done that purposely, but what about the unbelievers? What about the goats? Matt. 25:32 talks about all the nations being gathered before him so he can separate the sheep from the goats. That is a pretty simple thing to do, even for us; goats and sheep are pretty easy to tell apart. They will judge themselves! I don't get too hung up on all the judgments, as there are so many scenarios and the one that matters most is those of us who belong to the Body of Christ and we should strive to that end. It has taken me a full 30 years to realize I am never going to understand it all.

roberterasmus: Absolutely great points. Sometimes I wish I had the wherewithal to pick things apart. Hard for me to do when not face-to-face. I do wonder, and I'm not picking at you, or anyone for that matter, just how much all of the nitty-gritty details matter? Just as my eternal life does not depend on whether or not I cut my hair, should we not be more driven to just get people to the point where they too can have eternal life? Hey, I'm not saying you don't do that, just thinking out loud. Paul was a vehicle, albeit probably a Rolls Royce compared to a VW, but aren't we all? The point being that either car can get us where we need to go. I do think, Excathedra, that we need to keep our eyes on the Lord and mimic him. Is not that what Paul has told us anyway?

Oops! Hit send twice.... :blush:

Geisha and Sunesis: Awesome insight and responses. I might just add how in Acts the Church appears to act as the ONE BODY. Is not that a huge characteristic of the church as was established then? When Annanias and Saphira withheld their proceeds they were condemned for sinning against the holy spirit. In the gospels the holy spirit worked through Jesus Christ; in the epistles the holy spirit worked through the church, as a whole. At least as it appears to me. That seems to point to the relevance of the one body. Don't misunderstand, of course I believe each individual has the holy spirit too, but we are meant to be community. Everyonewhere we see community. Jesus heals the people who were outside of the community. Why? So they could be brought back in. So they could participate and be loved and held and touched. So they would no longer be outcasts. If what John's Gospel says about all the things Jesus did and said couldn't be written because the world could not contain the books that should be written, then I have to wonder why the ones that were written were so special. I think the answer is community. I LOVE THIS STUFF!!! I am realizing more lately that the need is to look at the basic beliefs of what is being said, rather than the "literal meaning". That might explain the hair length, etc. What's God really trying to say here? What's His message to us. If there is no new thing under the son, then His message would relate just as well today as it did then.

OK. Sure apostle means "sent one." But, others were also sent ones and didn't qualify as apostles, yes? The Samartin woman was sent....Mary Magdelen was sent....the 70 were sent. Has to be a bit more to it and I think some of the clues would be Paul's definition of apostle, I Cor. 9:1, "...Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?...." Then there's Luke's "definition" in Acts 1:21, "so one of the MEN who have accompanied us during all the tiem that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us...." Not too sure if MEN remained part of the definition because Junia (Rom. 16:7)was "prominent among the apostles." Junia eventually got to be masculine as the MSS got "newer." Then, of course, there the fact that apostles are gifts to the church. Not everyone is called to be an apostle.... Interesting though in re-looking at this stuff James has been grouped in with the apostles without even a thought (by most of us) and yet he was not one of the "original." Apollos is grouped in by Paul in I Cor. 4:6-9 ("us apostles"). Barnabas (I Cor. 9:5,6; Acts 14:14). Silvanus and Timothy (see I Thess. 2:7 with 1:1). I often feel as if I missed the forest for the trees and this is certainly one area in particular. Curiously, does that mean there are no apostles today? Well, TODAY, I'd have to say I think not. Tomorrow? Who knows?

Although I am jumping in here without reading every single reply, my first thought is why get so hung up on the epistles? Paul was one apostle. The book of Acts says there were more than 12 apostles. One of the requirements for being an apostle was SEEING the resurrected Christ. Where did VPW ever meet that one? I guess what I am trying to say is that shouldn't we be more concerned with what Jesus Christ did than what Paul did or wrote? Should he not be our example? Who says JUST the epistles are written to us? To say there were three components to what makes up the church is not exactly accurate. Jews, Gentiles, Church of God? The Church of God consisted of Jews and Gentiles in the first century. It took lots of figuring out for them to get to the point of being able to coexist. If we just go by what we were taught backthen, the Old Testament was just for our learning. Ha. Sure, we learn from it, we learn who God is and how He works. That is not just in the epistles or the gospels. Why have it otherwise? We would have tunnel vision just looking at seven letters.

I thought someone used those words to redo Hooked on a Ceiling, I mean Feeling

So, WS, are you up or what?

Mike, interesting way to look at it, but still "control" is the main factor. You may want to and think you can control a teenager, but HA! I hate to admit this, but I guess the final straw of legalism to me was hearing that we needed to wear suits and dresses to enter THAT auditorium thing. I can't even remember the name of it now! All I kept thinking was whatever happened to God doesn't care what you're wearing as long as you're here? It broke my heart. My first recollection of "who do these people think they are"? [my definition of legalism] actually occured when I took PFAL. I had my almost-2 year old with me. It was on Shelter Island in NY and it was run in a week, instead of 3. That's why I took it. I couldn't have found a babysitte for 36 hours over 3 weeks. Who's kidding who? Anyway, my baby girl didn't like being separated from Mommy and going to strangers. She acted up at dinner and B*b M told me I needed to discipline her. I grabbed my kid and left the dining room and was trying to figure out if I could swim home while holding my daughter. The guy running the class smoothed things over enough for me to stay and finish. I hated B*b for years actually, but he wound up being in charge of our Corps, and we actually became kinda friends. Probably cause I was able to tell him I thought he was an a-hole. Is that allowed here? Sorry, if not. I remember thinking when my Corps coordinator on the WOW field demanded we get up and run with her that I didn't sign up for THAT! I remember thinking when I had to leave my kid for weeks at a time while in residence that that just didn't jive with their family-first teachings. Etc., etc. Overall, it took getting out to realize I had a paper bag over my head for YEARS and plain refused to see what I knew in my heart. I thank God my husband stayed with me anyway. We got out in/around that ridiculous Geer paper. Left the ROA early and I wish I could say hardly-looked-back, but who'd believe me?

Rock on WW. Sorry for the delay. Went to see Creedance Clearwater Revisted last night. De Ja Vu.

This isn't one of my sermons. I expect you to listen. No wonder they execute people at dawn. Who wants to live at six A.M.? I thought this stuff was supposed to make you feel good. No; it's supposed to make you feel nothing. I'm not so think as you drunk I am... Please excuse these two, they're themselves today. ANY TAKERS?

Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth. I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting. Hope to talk with you again. Good hunting!

Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth. I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting. Hope to talk with you again. Good hunting!

The Brady Bunch?

Crazy little woman in a one-man show. Oh, maybe you're a guy? At any rate, YOU GOTS IT!

who's up?

Thanks for the clarification. However, WS, I'm stuck on that one....

Y'all are gonna be SO MAD when you hear what it is. I know you know it. GIVE UP YET? BTW--how about them Tigers?

It really was your birthday? I thought it was a joke. We did that to someone once .... well, never mind. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Tom. This will in all likelihood give it away: "Mirror queen, mannequin, rhythm of love Sweet dream, saccharine, loosen up I loosen up"

sharon, look, if they ever come around again...just kidding! Here's the next one: "Mirror queen, mannequin, rhythm of love" My absolutely #1 favorite (if that matters at all).

But, what about the entertainment factor?

If that is so, what do you do with the Body of Christ? Members in particular? What do you do with the fact that Israel rejected Jesus? Are you thinking Israel physically or spiritually? I would be careful putting yourself in Revelation 19.

Boy, WS, FLO was DREARY sounding, but at least it let you FLOW. I actually did get the functioning bit first time around. Cute. What a bunch of hooey that teaching was! And, Pond, you are probably 100% correct about having dreams, just not remembering them. That makes so much more sense. I've asked a few people since yesterday if they ever heard of someone NOT dreaming, and got looked at like I had two heads. So, I wasn't totally out there with that reaction. And, as Twinky-Dink has stated, God can do whatever He wants. Talk to us in dreams, or not. Talk to unbelievers....talk through donkeys....talk through bushes....talk through His Word. He LIKES to talk.