irisheyes

Just sittin' here trying to catch up and my stomach hurts just reading this stuff. We can't put God in a box or the holy spirit for that matter. We can't tell the holy spirit when to operate! How obnoxious of us. How ridiculous to even think we had such ability. There are no rules and regulations about whatever you want to call them; gifts, manifestations, etc. Like we could tell God "it's time for a prophecy here." Pulease.... I don't know if we are all supposed to speak in tongues. Do I think some people should? Sure. Do I think my eternal life depends on it? NO. Therefore, you want to do it? Rock on. Just don't try and tell me what I am supposed to do and don't try and tell God what and when He is supposed to do it either.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Of course, some of us where married and well, you know....

Ex: Hey girl, are you ok? I'm 50+, too, and still kicking butt. I got out when I was maybe 35 and I'm so glad I wasn't around for the stuff that followed. I learned to listen to myself one day and I think I have holy spirit in there somewhere. Most days I realize that I don't know crap and that's okay, at least I can own up to it. And crazy? Sure we know crazy. Just think, no one can bulls**t us and get away with it. We've learned from the masters....

Really, like get a life already, ya know? The Catholic Church is where I grew up myself. Big yawn. I think now that the pope is himself in trouble for letting the priests get away with it all, perhaps there will be an awakening within their people. Surely there are plenty of sincere, wonderful people who just want to do what is right and who just don't know what exactly that is.

Why? Because it was years of our lives, that's why. We were turned inside out and upside down and not even able to enjoy it!

And, boy, do people need to see it. It just makes me sick at my stomach reading this stuff and thinking I just never knew. I was too trusting. Perhaps had something of this sort had happened to me I would have been gone long before POP. We were so many of us trusting, moral people who only wanted to please God. The best thing to come out of all of this is that we were scattered abroad and even if it took years to heal, a great many of us have healed and moved on and continued our quest for truth and to hopefully be in God's will. The Lord knows if there was ever a time America needed to be blessed, it is today. Ex, there is no condemnation. Period.

I don't know if I exactly wondered if Geer confronted the three "stooges" or not. What I do remember more than anything was thinking "where is the love of God in this?" I was so totally disgusted that a father could actually leave a legacy like that to his son that I looked at my husband and said this just ain't right. I don't think it took us 24 hours to clear out. What we did was go home and actually read the bible for our own selves and low and behold the first thing I looked into was agape because that was what bothered me the most about the whole paper bs. Boy, was I surprised to see how wrong we had been taught about that one "little" word. It was a field day after that and ever since. If anyone should have confronted anyone it should have been VP confronting his own son. Are we called to hurt each other? How could I believe anything I was taught by a man who hurts the people he is supposed to love above all others. Blatant hypocracy. Oops, I mean hypocrisy (maybe).

Heck, I needed a good laugh to end a great day!

How 'bout Zombies?? Is that a better fit? Between "Bless Patrol", laundry, and just plain old lookin-for-fun, we were too tired to use our brains. IMHO. Anyway, like-mindedness should have centered on what the Lord did while he was here on earth; i.e., healing, feeding, teaching, loving. After all, he is the head.

I've been in the Gulf of Mexico for a week and was surprised to find this thread still alive. Perhaps this will add to somebody's understanding? It sure helped me as far as "free will." How many times have you heard "it was God's will" that such and such happened? Well, there's this little book called The Will of God by Leslie Weatherhead (there's a good German name for ya) which claims that there are actually three (3) wills of God: "1) The intentional will of God: Was it God's intention from the beginning that Jesus should go to the Cross? I think the answer to that question must be No. I don't think Jesus thought that at the beginning of his ministry. He came with the intention that men should follow him, not kill him. The discipleship of men, not the death of Christ, was the intentional will of God, or, if you like, God's ideal purpose. 2) The circumstantial will of God: When circumstances wrought by men's evil set up such a dilemma that Christ was compelled either to die or to run away, then in those circumstances the Cross was the will of God, but only in those circumstances which were themselves the fruit of evil. 3) The ultimate will of God: God's ultimate goal--the purposefulness of God which, in spite of evil and, even through evil, arrives, with nothing of value lost.. The same goal as would have been reached if the intentional will of God could have been carried through without frustration. In other words, God cannot be finally defeated. That's the definition of His omnipotence--not that everything that happens is His will, but that nothing can happen which FINALLY defeats His will. So, in regard to the cross, God achieved His final goal not simply in spite of the Cross but through it." I think our free will causes one of these wills of God to operate. Surely Jesus didn't want to die, but "not my will, but yours be done." Just one other thought. Paul claims that he was blameless in the law. (!) I didn't know someone could be such. However, he says it in the same way he uses his sufferings. He makes quite a list of both: accomplishments and sufferings. Anyway, I think his point with both is that it's not by works, not by good works or by bad works--it's by grace. Is that not the lesson? If God can have three wills, can't we too? I have often felt pressured or cornered to do something I really don't want to. Or life just changes on me. I gotta change with it or I'm eating dust. I guess I'm just thinking that our free will changes as we do (or not).

Soul searcher: Great logic. Of course, we can't blame the adversary (or karma, whatever)for our choices, our decisions, etc. There are consequences to most everything we do, good and bad. Should we nevertheless know our enemies? Any good coach will say Hell, yes. (AS I live in Louisiana, that superbowl victory is still fresh in our minds. Ha.) I guess in all honesty, though, I look at the wrong stuff as more random than personal. Like I've said, I think the world, and America for sure, is so far gone that no one has to push any buttons anymore, we're free falling.... I'm outta here for a week, cruising the Caribbean. Hope the food's not tainted.

In case you haven't noticed, you are talking to YOURSELF. Will be cruising the Caribbean for a week, probably not doing much on the net. See ya'll after, if we don't hit a sunami or if it doesn't hit us????

Probably most of us have had abusers in our lives or even been one (Maybe still are?). For me drug abuse surrounded me. Lost two brothers and nearly a son. My take? Yes, I believe there's an adversary, but I think he has this society so tied up that he really has nothing much left to do but sit back and laugh at us. I think there's a couple of accounts where the person needing healing was told to "look at me." Jesus said it and Peter, I think, also. I think the reason for that was so the person could concentrate and not let outside influences well, influence them. I find the word "balance" disturbing. I wish there was a definition I could live with for it. But, as for all you said, all we can worry about is our own selves and not try and figure out why stuff happens the way it does and just try to not be the cause of it happening.

THANKS! Yeah, I think that took hearing about what Jesus did for me too.

Clever, girl! Check on my house once in awhile, okay?

How refreshing to actually hear someone say what I thought for so long! To this day I cringe when people say God told them this or that. For all my years in that damned ministry I was horrified that I never got revelation. I even got to the point of wondering if I was even saved. So, just what is it anyway? A smack upside the head or that still small voice? I'm not seriously looking for an answer. I don't doubt it could happen, I just don't think it's an everyday, common occurrence.

There's this little book (64 pp) called "The Will of God" by Lesie D. Weatherhead that speaks of the THREE wills of God: The intentional, circumstantial and ultimate will of God. It's so worth finding, something that makes so friggin much sense, you want to hit yourself over the head when you read it. Think about this (if you haven't already): "The laws of the universe which are themselves an expression of God's will, were not set aside for Jesus, the beloved son. The laws which govern the hammering in of nails held on the day of crucifixion in just the same way as they do when you nail up a wooden box." Awesome read.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, is what I would like to say. This surely wasn't just a 90's thing. When I went WOW in the 70's I lost custody of my baby girl because of it. VPW's response? You didn't listen to God! WTF??? Where? When? By going WOW was the answer, it just took me years to see it. Ha. So, I kidnapped my kid and actually got away with it and thought I had done something wonderful for God. And, honestly, God made good where I had made a wrong decision. Doesn't He do that for us, His kids? Along those lines, if someone falls off a 10 story building is it the adversary who kills him or is it God's law of gravity? A broken heart can kill someone just as easily as a diseased one.

I am currently in a study on Acts and just getting to Paul. I am quite curious, all things considered, to see how this is handled. You are right in saying he didnt' micromanage, but maybe he wrote the office manual? Job qualifications? Job descriptions? I realize in looking over this stuff that TWI surely didn't come up with anything too original. Church in the home? John Wesley had a handle on that one way before TWI. And there were probably others before him. Like we said, no new thing under the sun....

In rereading what I posted, I guess it could be taken to mean just someone far away and not your neighbor also. That's not really what Jesus did. He took care of things as he went along. Sure, sometimes he went out of his way to get somewhere to do something special, but mostly not, I think. If this is where TWI got their WOW ideas, etc. shame on them. Shoot, shame on them anyway. Plenty of people in Acts owned homes and stayed put. Don't get me started.... :wacko:

And I might add to that that Paul obviously had wanderlust before and after his conversion!Also, he was obviously a driven man who took his beliefs to the extreme, good or bad. It took someone with those qualities to light a match to the first century church's behind. He knew there was a Messiah coming, he was a Pharisee. But, he had to rethink his beliefs (hence his few years sabbatical) and adjust them accordingly and then he was able to use what he learned and how he figured it out, to teach others. I love how God's providence shines through with the people He chose/chooses. Think about Moses, who better to lead Israel through the desert than someone who had just spent 40 years roaming around in it? Just one example....

It's sweet to be able to say I agree, Geisha. I love agreeing. I also love disagreeing though because it allows that further scrutiny. There is one point, however (of course), that I'm not so sure on. You said Jesus didn't say anything new. I don't know about that. Maybe not new in the sense of there's no new thing under the sun, but he did do things that seemed new to the people in his time. The Jews in no way wanted to play nice with the Gentiles. Over and over again Jesus played nice with them anyway. Even John the Baptist had to send his disciples to ask if Jesus was the one who was the come. Obviously he knew who Jesus was. He said as much when he baptized him, his mom prophesied about Jesus, they were cousins for pete's sake. But, Jesus wasn't doing what everyone expected him to do, John included. He wasn't overthrowing the government and crowning Israel triumphant. As far as I can tell the prophesies in the Old Testament about the Messiah were not recognized as such until after the resurrection. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and a curse at the same time. Even the apostles didn't get it until after the resurrection. Jesus loved to use the Samaritans as examples. Plenty of Samaritans knew the Old Testament. They had Hebrew blood. The woman at the well knew about the Messiah. Once again, Jesus did the unexpected. Not only was she a Samaritan, she was a woman! Same with the lepers, et al. He constantly broke tradition. Whores? Sure, they were no different to the Lord, only to the people he lived among. Yes, the old testament said love your neighbor. But, someone had to ask Jesus who is my neighbor? His answer would probably disgust most of us today if you switch the word Samaritan to the word terrorist, for example. Jesus' answer was go into a place you don't want to go, help out someone you consider an enemy, who is wounded, touch him (what if he has AIDS?), help him, put him on your bike and you walk beside him, get him to the ER, pay for his care and come back and make sure he's taken care of. Right. (It's easy to love someone who loves you back; what about our enemies?) I think Jesus' answer to John the Baptist was his way of saying it wasn't the time for Israel. It was time to heal, time to love, time to bring people together.... Look what I've done, John. I've healed the sick, the lame walk, the blind see. That's what I have come to do. So, what exactly is it WE are here to do? And, of course, let's throw women into the stew for a second. Luke and Acts and countless other places show the importance women played in getting the Word out. They financed Jesus! How could anyone honestly consider women second-class citizens? It had to be custom.... Jesus surely didn't exempt himself from women. Women weren't the ones who turned away. Shoot, he appeared to a woman first when he was resurrected. Don't ya love this stuff?

And I just ate some Ben & Jerry's!

Let me say ahead of time that I'm reporting was is widely known, not my opinion. 2 Tim. 3:16 in GREEK does not contain the word IS. The first is, that is. In other words, All Scripture God breathed is profitable.... I quit trying to refute this. Perhaps if we look at it in this light, some of our questions can be answered. If truly God did not breathe ALL scripture but the scripture He did inspire is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction, then clearly not all scripture came from His Lips. This would surely explain "contradictions", how many roosters crowed, how many were crucified, what day of the week the crucifixion took place, how Noah could have possible told the difference between a male and female cockroach, etc. If our salvation does not depend (and I repeat myself) on whether or not we cut our hair, or if women have to shut up in the church, etc., then let's just friggin forgetaboutit. Of course, as for Paul, when all is said and done, not only was he human, he was a man! (Just throwing that in for the sistas!)

U R preaching to the choir.