dmiller

Muchos Gracias!!!!!!!!! FYI -- my mother (librarian to the end) always pushed "books" in our house. Tv was a very distant "second", and while I fall short of a lot of these "discources", I need to say thanks, for noticing that at least I try. :)-->

"clergy" is defined as ---"ordained for religious service". Next question would be -- who decides the ordination? God, or man? And then you have to ask if man (ie - a denomination), decides that God has chosen this person to be ordained, who are they to take away what has been "bestowed upon"? If they are "de-frocking", it is simply a statement that (whomever) chooses not to "stand" with us, and is no longer "clergy" Granted, it happened in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament leaders were called into question for actions done, but given today's "razzle-dazzle" proliferation of churches, I have to wonder how their priorities are set. You agree? Fine. You are "clergy", since you do so well with ..............(insert "program" here) You have problems with our policies? Fine. Give us back the robe. You mean nothing. Spiritually, or governmentally. JAL is certainly not "clergy" to twi anymore, but did they choose him? I think the heart of a man or woman determines the "clergyness" of an individual, and not the "nod" from the elders in an institution. And if that "nod of affirmation" isn't the deciding factor for the beginning, neither should the lack thereof, be important in the end. :)--> Woops -- I might have just relegated this to the Doctrinal Forum. :(--> :P-->

I did also, although I will have to admit that I do so more now, than then. "Don't take my word for it, check the Word" (or something to that effect), was heard frequently from vpw. As Ex10 correctly points out, he was "The Teacher", so the folks who actually did so, were few and far between. I got out the books to check, but not as much as I should have. Guess I studied it, while swallowing it.

Right. -->

Refiner -- did you get my apology in the about vpw's writings? You never posted after I sent it. :)--> Dot -- sorry for the derail! -->

Just clicked on your link..... Plus -- this has been going on since 1999, in their court. If he is that guilty, why is it taking them so long? Again -- NOT sticking up for CI, but just asking. :)--> Any ideas? -->

Dot -- why did she wait so long to see this guy "get his due"? I'm not sticking up for ole "CI", but I'm thinking she could have said something sooner. Does this mean there are more "skeletons" in his closet?? I'm just asking

Def -- that was an honest question, and deserves an honest answer. :)--> In one word, YES. I don't mean to castigte your beliefs, but give it an honest thought. Things are not the way they originally were. Things have changed. You want to hear something I am dealing with? Hearing Zixar and some of these other "astronomical" folks speak of comets, and stars, etc., have really got me wondering about what they are like now, because they change as well. And what I am hearing is, we are seeing them as they used to be (given the light year factor), and not as they are as we see them tonight. And that humbles me greatly. When I realize I am seeing something that is already past and gone, I have to think -- "Who am I?" The Administrations are (somewhat) in the same vein to me, yet I see that they are not as elusive (time-wise) as the constellations are. If the Word declares them to be a relevant factor "in my time", then there is no "light year factor" involved, and they (Administrations), are a present reality. (To me, at least). I honestly see the beginning of the "church" as happening on the day of Pentecost there in Acts 2. It was a totally unique beginning of an entity (previously) unknown to mankind. And I happen to believe it will have just as an "unique" ending on the day of the Rapture. Things were set up by God in the OT, yet were changed in the NT, and I, for one, would like to recognize that. But that is me, and that is the "point of reference", that I am working from! :)-->

GS George -- You just nailed it!! Good job! (plus) -- I think you just "invalidated" half of this site!! :D-->

Geo -- yep, and yep. Don't remember the exact year you were here in Duluth, but I think it was before I was selling insurance ---- (Gawd -- what a strange long trip that was! What you just said, reminded me of our "policy" we were pushing, and how we got folks to "buy" it. We were taught to emphasize certain words, place the pen on certain phrases of the policy (which was facing the customer - we had to look at it upside down), speak with inflection in our voice at certain times, tell a "mindless" joke at an exact time, use eye contact, not use eye contact, name names of their neighbors, and to just basically prove to them (the customer), that we were "from the hood", and had their best interest at heart, so "buy what I am selling." The whole scam (not legally, but in reality it was) was set up by W. Clement Stone, who was one of those "think and grow rich" folks. He had the entire "spiel" set up by psychiatric type folks who knew key words, key mannerism's, key reactions , optimal success "realizations" for the product, etc. He (W. Clement Stone) and docvic had a hell-of-a-lot in common (imho) since they were both selling the public a "bill of goods" that needed better perusal, other than the spiel offered by whatever "salesman" happened by. --> Docvic may have never had an accredited Phychiatrist "work over" his "spiel" to get it to sell better, but I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that he plagarized the works of these guys to gain the same end that the pros were doing in the insurance field. Oh -- wait a minute. docvic WAS selling insurance, wasn't he?

BlueSunday -- agreeing with Steve!, and carrying it a step further (if I may). :)--> Scars may last, but you see them less and less as time goes by. I have some scars on me (physically) that I don't even notice these days, since I am so used to seeing them. I know they are there, but I no longer dwell on them, nor do I dwell on the "event" that caused them initially. Yes -- the initial "event" caused me pain, and I bear the marks from it, but it happened long ago. Mental "scars" can be the same way. I also have those, yet if I think about them, I have to really take the time to notice, since I am used to them, and they are now part of the "landscape" (if you will). If the "pain is gone" - as you said, let your scars disappear into the background also. Sounds like your best friend, that pastor person is the Godsend you claim him to be. Ask questions, get answers, live life! Sometimes it just doesn't cut it to be with the "IN" crowd. Consider yourself "OUT" -- all the way. :)-->

Trefor -- which is the "joke"? The loincloth, or your statement? --> They are both sooooo apposite!!! :D--> :D-->

The "son" learned the lesson well, that the "father" taught. :(-->

Trefor -- you have that one correct. I always saw twi "leadership" as wardens. The higher up they got, the more power they had over you and I, and the "underling wardens" merely followed orders, after reporting on us. -->

Stephen Wright might also say ----------- "Abundant sharing" "When am I getting my share of the Abundance?" "If it's got to be, it's up to me" "There is no "B" in me. "Just sign the green card" "Hmm, I'm an illegal, I have no green card. "M&A?" "Meat and apricots? What kind of pizza is that?" "Cop-out" "Yea - that's what I told him, but he wouldn't listen." -->

Oak -- Raf has the site on the Open Forum in the thread "Dovie's Son Mike & His Website" Or go to www.suffermusic.net from here. :)-->

Refiner -- Peace!! :)--> Was just putting my "2 cents in", while trying to leave it all way, way open for you to continue, despite my "observation" The one constant I have seen here, is that if someone asks another to stop posting, they will only post all the more! ;)--> That is all I said, and that is all I meant. I have never asked anyone here to stop discussing something (as if I had the right to), except for perhaps on the Mike thread, where I did ask him to delete it! My "suggestion" (if you will), merely states that I personally would leave it alone, but you are obviously of a more "discussion oriented" mind-set than I am, and I realized that when I posted the above, knowing full well that you would continue in order to pursue your own "goals" as pertains to this thread. Mea Culpa. Am sorry if I got you going on the wrong foot, irritated, upset, and any other "descriptive definition" that may apply here. :(--> I hope you accept my apology, I was only responding to Def when I said what I did, and since you mention the Doctrinal forum, you may notice that he and I are rarely in agreement, and will discuss into the next century! Talk about "repetetive redundancy". --> :D-->

JoeBon -- welcome. :)--> Raf serves a good cup of coffee. Ya shoulda copied that tape! Ahem -- for personal use only! :D-->

WG - There's another D.M****r out there? I never led anything in "da mini-stry", so I know that couldn't have been directed at me. Still -- you had me wunderin! ;)-->

All this makes me want to hum a few bars of ................... "I'm so glad, I'm a part, of the family of God ......... :D-->

in which administration?!?

Refiner -- Well -- you now have a copy, and I've got to say, when you read it, I don't think you'll be sucked in like we were. Read, and enjoy --> I am waiting for your take on it!

And I am here to SALUTE such a dedicated patriot! :D--> You lost me when you started speaking of 8 MM's, 1 IC, 3 EM's, 3 ET's, but heyyyyyy !! Nickel beer (I use the term loosely if it was "Bud" night) --> and $1.00 steak dinner I can understand! :)--> May you continue to do "good deeds" for the Navy"!

And for the record -- I thought he was joking too. Found out different.

Tom -- well, er, ahem, coughhhhhh! You do have the reputation!! :D--> :D--> :D--> Just glad that Psalmie didn't have to send out "Pig-Force One" after you!!