dmiller

HA! :D--> I'd be happy to see just the one Satori posted about his conversation with John S. It really does sound interesting. :)-->

Oak -- HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!! Sounds like you came though the fire, on your feet, with both your barrels blazing! ;)-->

IIRC -- am thinking it means - If I Remember (Recollect) Correctly. The punctuation used, makes this a plausible guess/supposition.

I think you hit the nail on the head also. :(-->

Thanks! :)-->

Thank you Zix. :)--> Satori -- if this is true, I apologize. And am also sorry your post got deleted. I didn't get a chance to read it, but evidently you had solid reasons for saying what you did. Maybe who ever took it, could put it back! Again, sorry I was presuming things that evidently were not the case.

it's what you get after drinking a "fith" of pear water!

As usual, Oak, you make a ton of sense. I didn't mean to have it sound like miracles could be proved, nor did I mean to make it sound like they should be proved, but I guess what I was trying to say was -- if someone comes up with "proof" of something classified as a miracle, it shouldn't be discounted as a miracle, just because someone came up with some hard data about it. I for one, am more skeptical of the "proof" aspect of any given "miracle" since the person offering the "proof" is working backwards (facts after the fact), leading to the original occurrance. I also don't think proof is neccesary to "validate" miracles, or any other "un-explained phenomenom", yet if someone finds a few facts here and there that do seem to do so, so be it. And then you said -- As I said earlier -- you make a ton of sense! :)-->

I like it! :)-->

You're out of the loop, satori, and are engaging in those circuitous reasonings that you accuse "LSG" of being so proficient of. You are so locked into a mentality of "they can't be right", that you are now making absurd accusations/ observations/ whatever-you-want-to-call-them, against folks who happen to differ from you. I have yet to hear any one of "LSG", or anyone in CES for that matter, say "I've forgotten more about the bible, than you will ever know". You know what??? Those words, in that particular sequence is not now, nor has ever been, in our vocabulary. I would never be so presumptuous as to even think such a thing, and in the 15 plus years I have hung out with CES, I have never heard anyone else say them either. If you don't care for the group, well hey -- as I said before, it is a free country. You do whatever turns your crank, but when you make allegations, declarations, whatever -- try to attempt for a little bit of accuracy, and don't engage in "slander" to make an inflammatory comment that leads nowhere, except to stroke your own ego. If you have a bunch of pent-up stuff inside (and man, does it ever sound like you do), don't go spewing it out in my/our direction. It is wasted effort. Constructive criticism (at least in my life) is always welcome. I ignore fallacious allegations. Life is too short.

Hmmmm. I can't go along with that, unless you define a miracle as something that cannot be explained - rather than something that has happened that was unexpected. If a medical "miracle" takes place, the "proof" is there in the healed patient, and that doesn't negate the fact that something happened, reguardless of whether you can explain (or not) the unexpected that took place. And as far as the Red Sea crossing, I will continue to believe it happened, just the same way I believe Jericho's walls fell down -- with or without proof. If "proof" of any OT or NT "happenings" is found, fine. It doesn't validate, or negate what is already written in the Word. To be honest, I guess I would question the "proof" more than I would the event, so I think we're in agreement about that. To be sure, miracles usually transcend man's validation, but as the saying goes -- "Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut". :D-->

:)--> :)--> :)--> Hiya Dot! Good to see you here again, even if you may not be staying. You are one of the more stellar ones here. Great post. You should have called it: Clear your calendar, grab some coffee, you're gonna be here for a while! :D--> I hit the xjw site now and again, and am getting an eye-opener about the true feelings of some of those who used to, and still do post here. Not real pretty, but as you say, if that's the way they feel - change may not be forthcoming. By the way -- THANK YOU AGAIN for the link to www.christianforums.com An awesome site! :)--> Am having as much fun there, as I am here. Lotsa good bluegrass talk over there! You take care. :)-->

Current temperature there is now 70 degrees. It's currently 51 degrees here in Minnesota. Tennessee is looking better and better.

Still planning on trying to be there. Have Fiddle and Banjo, Will Travel!

Amen, and amen. I agree. I've got a job I love, yet the boss is a pain in theass. I'm not quitting the job, just because of the boss. I have never considered throwing out a good thing, just because some of it was bad. twi taught some good stuff, and they taught some bad stuff. Other churches I have been in have done the same. As satori001 said: "God at the end of the rainbow" -- describes what so many outfits (ie.- read "churches") are trying to sell you, either subtly, or not so subtly. My personal opinion is that any given church has concrete possession of "one or two of the rainbow colours", but no church possesses the entire spectrum ranging from infra-red to ultra-violet. In other words, no church has the complete, true, unadulterated Word Of God, despite their claims. (Don't we know it!) :(--> So I take what I can from what is offered by the various churches. There is a real smorgasboard of beliefs out there. Some choices are healthy, some are not. I treat CES the same way. Although I support them, I don't take everything they teach for granted. I like their stuff, yet there is some of it I question also. The only church that will ever have a solid lock on the entire spectrum of the rainbow, is the one Jesus Christ Himself will be the Head of. Until then -- it's up to us to do what we can for ourselves at the smorgasboard.

Oh -- also (Bullinger) -- yes, John Shoenheit uses the word "rapture" instead of "gathering together". He explains the use therof by saying that there were many gatherings mentioned in the Word, yet this one is distinct from all the others, and comes from the Latin word "raptere" (I could be wrong about the spelling of this here). I have a Latin dictionary that defines rapio as "to snatch to oneself, or to sieze hastily". and raptum as "that which is carried off; plunder, or booty, to sieze for oneself by taking away, or carrying away".

Thanks! You answered my question. Since you have looked at their site (and I didn't expect that you would be spending untold hours there), you have at least done some homework. And if you say their reasoning is "dumbing down, circular, or childish reasoning", now I know you are expressing an opinion formulated from "gathering evidence". I do not see myself, or anyone else being trained to be "dumb", and tho the "education offered", revolves around the CES teachings to be sure, many other authors are cited, quoted, and, their books mentioned as "something for you to consider". But, since you said "please" -- I will think about it. :)--> (really -- I will.) Sure CES is propogating some - (emphasis on some), of the doctrine taught in twi, but then again -- so is the Charismatic Catholic Church, Vineyard Fellowship, Assembly of God, Messianic Jews, and even the Jehovah Witnesses (to mention a few I am familiar with). VPW did such a great job of taking things from wherever he could find them, that undoubtably you could find his teachings in a lot of outfits (these days) who have never even heard of the guy. I'm being semi-facetious here, because I know what you are saying, yet many things taught by vpw can be found in churches today. Yet those churches do not take the credit for "receiving the Rev" about those given subjects. They give "honour where honour is due", and don't hog all the glory for themselves. IMHO -- CES is not "hogging the credit" for "newly" received revelation either. They have had no "snowstorms" in July, no audible voice saying "I'll teach you the Word", no this, no that. What they DO HAVE is a desire to move the Word of God, and promote Jesus Christ our Saviour, to whomever cares to listen. If you find their teachings circuitous and childish -- well -- so be it. That is your opinion. Opinions are valued, especially at CES -- who in the past 15 plus years have never told me what to believe, how to believe, or "we believe you should send us some money". I'm not the "sharpest knife" in the drawer, but I have been around CES for a good bit of time now, and find myself no less sharp a result. In fact, they have helped me become just a bit sharper, through their research, and ministry. Now that is a "dumbing down" I can handle!! :)-->

:)--> HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!

yea, though it's been a while. Ken showed up at our "Sir Ben's" jam one night about 4 years ago. Then got an e-mail from him and Diane one day (several months ago), but though I answered, I never heard back from them. I miss them too. Also Steve and Jeannie. Echoing George here -- Sorry for the de-rail! :(-->

speaking about "family" --- Whatever happened to Peter and Martha Credit?? Were they still here in Duluth when you were, George??

Well -- I for one will agree with the latter statement! ;)--> However -- "Family" (these days), is where you find it. I have "family"that I see once a year at a Bluegrass Festival. And no -- we had no special calling, but it is a musical "fellowship" none-the-less. Even simple "gatherings" like mine, around a campfire with musical instruments in hand, constitute "family" to me. The shared "belief" we have is bluegrass. A shared "theology", reguardless of how long it was held, or where it came from, also constitutes "family". :)-->

satori001 -- Hey, hang on, and type a little slower. Let me get my fiddle, and play for this "sob story". --> I think I can add all the dissonant notes needed, to truely make your "sour script" a little more so. Hearing your assessment of CES (as an organization), and JAL (as he currently is as a person), is just about as "valid of an observation" that might be made by the KKK, about the NAACP. In other words -- a non-factor. There is life after twi, and imho, CES is not trying to emulate them, but is trying to be a Ministry that offers bible to those who wish for it. Not everyone is in the boat you are in. And I get the impression that you are saying that if one is not in your boat, the particular one they are in is doomed to sink. Well -- go ahead and say so, and while you are at it -- be sincere. But remember -- "SINCERITY IS NO GUARANTEE OF TRUTH" Everything I have read by you here on this thread, and on others about CES, and JAL, have said little else, other than attacks. And by the way, you never did answer my question -- if you have actually listened to any of the stuff they have put out, or if you have visited their websites? CES is not in the business of "selling" anything, except for the Word of God. I have never been asked for money from them, with the exception of their mentioning their "partnership program", which I did join, on a voluntary basis. The "partnership program", and "supplications for money" are not now, nor have they ever been the main thrust of their "outreach". The main thrust has always been the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you don't like that, well -- too bad. They are not there for money, they are there for souls. And the price for the souls has already been paid.

Just goes to show you that even Russians get funding to do "stupid studies". :D-->

Never have. Never will. :)-->

MJ -- actually, no. I was speaking of personal things that have happened to me in my life long before I ever met twi. Those things that occurred to me then, were what I was speaking of, but yea -- twi could be construed that way too.