dmiller

Wish I could do that. :(--> :(-->

CW -- you come up with some great graphics!!!!! :)-->

Just don't reject the Coal Miner's Daughter, Loretta Lynn! :D-->

I was taught that the Pharisees embraced the "letter of the law", and that Jesus embraced the "spirit of the law". Rings true for me.

actually, I was. :)--> I kinda figured you wouldn't want it, but it never hurts to ask - eh? ;)-->

You could start a denomination with a statement like that. :D-->

good posts, and good points -- rascal. I was leery of attending other churches at first, but after going to a few, I was able to see the "genuinity" (did I just invent a new word?) ;)--> of the folks in attendance. The only thing that kept me from checking out different groups earlier than I did, was that "air of superiority and arrogance" that you mentioned. Baptist doctrine I don't totally get along with, but there are some great people I have met at the two Baptist churches I have gone to. Likewise -- I've met some great folks at both Messianic Jewish and Jehovah Witness meetings as well, that I have attended. And I agree with you also chwester, when you said loving God and your neighbor is more important than correct doctrine. Vpw picked up a lot of various "ideas", "doctrines", "revelations", (call them what you will) -- and molded them all into what became pfal. Whether it was intended to happen or not, I (along with just about everyone else) felt superior to any and all other religious outfits, believing we had the "true Word" -- as revealed to us by our father-in-the-word, the mogfodat. vpw used things from books that were by trinitarian authors, in my opinion, because there were "snippets" of info he could use to further his own purposes. Bullinger was a trinitarian, and look at all the "press" he got because of twi. Bullinger offers a lot of things, and vpw picked up on many of them, but he didn't acknowledge Bullinger's advocation of the trinity, or the deity of Christ. As I said on page one -- he was selective. And Mike -- I pulled out my copy of the July/August 1985 Way Magazine. The last paragraph of page 12 states: Not one mention of pfal, or mastering it. According to vpw, God's Word is the fountainhead of all truth, not pfal. After all -- his signature is right under that paragraph.

Sky --Yes -- imho -- Jesus thought as we do, was tempted as we are, lived life like the rest of do, dreamt, wept, laughed, got angry just like us, yet remained sinless. As I said -- I think he was made just like Adam. Jesus also had the "innocent blood", that none of us can claim, but Adam could. Adam and Jesus both had freedom of will to either follow the Word, or to not follow it. Adam chose to sin, Jesus chose not to sin. They both had the same thinking capabilities that you and I have today. The main difference between them and us, is that God was their physical father.

Dan -- Thank you for the reluctant messenger site! :)--> I've been wanting to take a look at the book of Enoch for some time now.

Another good on-line site for Strong's concordance is HERE. I find myself using it more than I do the book. :)-->

Mike --I first heard it from docvic himself, then later from folks running his classes in the various areas I was in, over the years. To be sure, vpw (in all fairness), did mention the fact that he had gleaned info from other folks, however -- it was made to sound like he had re-worked, and refined it himself -- to the point where it was "suitable for teaching". The fine folks running his classes, also glossed over the fact that he took so much from others -- preferring to mention more about vpw's "hard work at researching the truth", than they did about where his sources of "said truth" came from. If you want to call 8th corps "neophites", they were the last one's running a class (offered by twi) that I was ever at attendence in. They were most adament that doc was able to "ferret out the truth", from all of these various doctrines, and teach us what really mattered. Upshot of it is -- while others were noted as having made "contributions", docvic got the praise and glory for making it "worthy" of belief. Any more questions? :)-->

JT -- I was told the same. :(-->

JT --- True! ;)-->

WW -- You have my vote for a doctorate. Title?? - how about - Dr. (of the) Unidentified Multitudes (of) Believers?? (DUMB) :D--> Ha!! -- we all qualify for that one!!

if you want to order it from CES, their bookstore is open to all. :)-->

you can PT me with your mailing address -- and I'll send you a copy, or you can order one from CES for 4 bucks. :)--> It is a good tape. ;)-->

Oak -- The 1991 september/october tape from CES "Ministry of Angels To Beleivers" does a good job of answering your question. :)-->

and a final note -- I find it most interesting that Jesus (by His obedience), was able to fill two "vacant spots" by His free will, that two others chose to leave by their "free will". :)-->

Def -- I respect both your position, and you for "sticking to your guns". :)--> I don't see it as a "slam dunk", though I will admit to the fact that Jesus (while tempted in all points like we are), never sinned, and probably also never considered sin as an option. Looking at Heb 4:15 -- I'm not 100% on the meaning of the word without. Not sure if it means He was (as you say) "without" -- as in unable to sin; or "without" -- as in choosing not to sin. Here is what I believe about Jesus, and if you don't agree -- well, that's ok, cause you won't be the first to disagree! :D--> God created Adam, and made him "perfect". He also gave Adam freedom of will. Adam chose to sin. As a matter of fact, Lucifer was made perfect, and he/it chose to sin also. (Isaiah 14:12-15). Look at what you have here. 2 "perfect" beings -- one human, and one spirit, and both with freedom of will. I submit to you, that Jesus Christ was also perfect -- fashioned as Adam was (both "perfect, and with freedom of will). It makes complete sense to me that God would fashion a "second Adam" to rectify the mistakes of the "first Adam". The sacrifices, etc., in the OT were only a substitute -- until a living, breathing, willing person would step forward. And obviously, you and I could not do it -- but Jesus could/can, and did do it. I also do not believe that Jesus was "exactly like us", but I do believe He was "exactly like Adam", and there is a difference. If He was fashioned after man, it makes sense to me that He (the 2nd son of God) was fashioned after Adam - the first son of God. He was made perfect just as Adam was, He had freedom of will (ie - choice to obey or disobey God), and He used that "choice" option correctly, whereas both Adam, and Lucifer did not. Slam dunk?? I don't think so. It is interesting to think of how Jesus not only replaced Adam (as an obedient son), but also to think of how He replaced Lucifer as well, by being so perfect in His obedience, that He takes the place of the one who was once perfect, yet decided to "exalt himself" above God. Jesus is now the bright and morning star. Not Lucifer. And also -- Jesus had the "Word of God" to follow, as did Adam -- yet Adam never had the written Word, just the "spoken Word" (what a "disadvantage, eh??) --> Both had the word, both were son's Of God by birth, and one chose to follow the written word, and the other chose not to follow the spoken word. And -- (honest question) -- how could it be a "slam dunk" given the many times Jesus prayed to His Father for guidance, and answers??? How about the Garden of Gethsemane? Or the time he cast out spirits, and said "this comes from prayer and fasting"? A slam dunk (at least to me) entails no work, no agonizing in prayer, no asking for help -- it should be a done deal. Right? I agree 100% that the battle has been won, and I agree we are called to grow up in Christ. But I don't see it as being denigrating to Jesus Christ to say that He was a human, with the capability to sin, and with the determination not to. Others went before Him, with the same capabilities, and failed. He did not! :)-->

:)--> Hear ya!

2 books to the Ephesians?? -->

Hi Roy -- I wish that they would listen, but I don't think they ever will. Am watching the Olympics now, and it reminds me of twi (in a sense). Twi has to go for the gold. They will never be satisfied with the "silver" -- ie -- second place. They are so convinced that they are right, there is nothing you, I, or anyone can say that would change their minds. Whatever we may have to say to them, will be said to deaf ears -- sadly. Just my imho (as usual). :)-->

Brad Young teaches some things that are correct: Greg Boyd teaches some things that are correct: Ed Fudge teaches some things that are correct: So does Charles Stanley, Ravi Zacharias, and Tony Evans, and (I will also include) vpw in this line-up. I don't think promoting "any one man's theology" cuts it -- reguardless of who they are. Promoting the overall message, that all of the above mentioned seem to support, is the ultimate goal -- not just one individual "doctrine".

And speaking of teachings by vpw, I am more prone to disavow what he says, than I am of others. Consider his teaching on "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken me?" CES is by no means a Messianic group, yet I have heard the same explanation at a Messianic church about these very verses. Docvic didn't have it right. I don't think agreeing with some of what he taught "validates" his teaching over all. :)-->