dmiller

Abigail -- thanks for the link!! Looked at it briefly, and it looks interesting. I'll check it out better later on today.

454 -- double --- :)-->

Would that be a '57 Chevy station wagon?? Speaking of Chevy's, size does matter -- if yer talking about the engine. :D-->

Ahhh. Ok. "Now I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer, and "saw". :D--> Everything Beth Yeshua did, was in the context of Jewish tradition (from the 1st century), and integrating that with the salvation message that is offered through Jesus Christ to us today. They taught a class on the Book of Revelation (while I attended), and were very adamant, that (what they taught), was what might have been expected, or believed by a 1st century believer, with none of the "trappings" that are associated with that book today. Their reference to the "1st century church" is strictly due to Hebraic influence, and not some sort of "cult" thing that we all went through. They were really big on Hebrew roots, and that is "ground zero" for them, thus the things they say about the first century church. From what I gather from the time I spent there, they worship Jesus as Lord, some speak in tongues, all teachings are taught as they might have been received (back whenever), and there is little to no "modern day spin" when Pastor Stan steps behind the pulpit. He continually re-iterated that "this is how it would have been understood back then". I can't say yea, or nay to that, cause I don't know. But I did like it that he was teaching from a perspective that was not "modern day". I guess (now that I think about it), they are similar to twi in a way, because these folks preach the Torah, (LAW) --> and expect people to follow it today. I, myself, have many questions about what should, and what should not have predominance in our faith, when it comes to this subject. While I believe in the various "administrations", I find each significant, and not to be ignored. I for one do not think that the Torah should be thrown out, even though we are in the "grace" administration now. Yet, I still have to wonder how much relevance the Torah has to Grace. So -- like I said -- (me aside) :)--> -- they are coming from a format of looking at the bible as it might have been viewed by those who were present at the time.

:D--> Egos, too.

I see the weather atFall Creek Falls, is in the 60"s, and clear. Better than here. :(-->

Abigail -- here is another site to look at as well. Psalm Singer is a lady named Marji, who used to do a weekly teaching on AOL, in a chat room called Bible Discussions every Friday night. She no longer does so, and I haven't heard of, or from her in a long time. Just thought of her site, and thought I would pass it along too. I don't know exactly what she believes (been a while since I went there), and you might consider them "different" too. But no harm in looking. Eh? ;)--> Beth Yeshhua reminds you of twi?? --> Wow -- guess I better look at the site a little closer! They never really seemed to come across that way at the weekly meeting I went to, but then again, it was just their bible study that I attended, and nothing more. Hope you like the new site! :)-->

and a ps. here --- concerning the poster on the twi site. I used to date a JW woman, and she handed me all sorts of Watchtower publications, and good Gawd, didn't that there on the twi site remind me of everything the Watchtower Society put out, and mass-produced -- for the perusal of the blind, led by the blind. It surely did. :(-->

He's the "Absent Christ", remember? --> Or was that just back in the '70s twi-I days?? Maybe he has been absent from then to present. I wouldn't doubt it.

Well -- he did give it all to twi, though I don't think he ever thought it would come to this.

Yes. Agreeing with the other comments afforded here, and adding my own. IMO -- twi-2 started with lcm, yet took a coupla years to "get up to steam". The transitional year or two (when the "mantle" was passed) were mostly "ssdd", but the authoritarian edicts of lcm started to finally reach even us, here in the Northland. That is when I put on my "hiking shoes", and walked away. Back in Indiana, in the mid 70's was a good time for all of us that chose to be in the "fellowship". Up here in Minnesota, we were far removed from HQ, and as long as vpw was alive, and in power, it was business as usual, and when he decided to retire ------- I remember the meeting we were all at. Live phone hook-up, North Shore of Lake Superior, a "camp" of sorts that had log cabins, farm animals, etc., and D*na Ly*n was our area coordinator -- and when lcm was announced as the successor, I was watching her face, and saw an immediate smile break forth. Well -- whatever lcm had to offer (at the time), surely showed up here in spades, so yes --- there was a difference. Docvic did his thing too, but somehow we escaped the "demands". After the transitional peiod, lcm became more and more demanding. I made the mistake of asking a question or two (during this time peiod), and managed to get myself M&A. Yup -- twi-1 was different. Not better, just different. -->

Ps. -- SelahV --- love that screen name!! :)-->

SelahV -- you're not the problem, and neither is God. Check out Don't blame God, on the Truth or Tradition website. Perhaps you will not find all answers there, yet you should find some answers there. God bless, good luck, and God speed. Praying for you, and your successful quest in finding answers. Give me a shout, via private topic, if you want to talk in detail. I've had my share of struggles too, and have yet to see the light of day. It's a long, long, tunnel we are trying to emerge from.

That's why I asked for the exact letter. Interpretations of what was said, and the possible meaning thereof, varies alot; therefore I'd rather see it in the original. What good will the original do for you Oldies? --> You asked for (and I sent you), the "original" of the 37 page letter by R. Belt, R. Dubofsky, J&P Lynn, and T. Reahard -- along with some clergy meeting notes that absolutely "hit below the waterline" -- striking, and helping sink the "good ship twi". Since you are still so adamant in your declarations that twi is (after all these years) "a victim", I am beginning to wonder if you even perused the pages I sent. Did you instead line your kitchen cabinets with them? Use them as scratch paper? Run out of Kleenex, and use them as tissue? (surprised you couldn't smell truth there), or did you take the entire batch out to an outhouse to be utilized there? Given your continued rhetoric about twi, and how they are so "misunderstood", I can only suppose that once in possesion of "the original", you either glance at it perfunctorily - and dismiss it as "so much garbage", or put it on your bottom shelf, never to be seen again. T'is obvious you don't take them seriously -- even if you do see the "original interpretations, and the possible meanings thereof". :(-->

I hope he came up with the money. Otherwise we might see him for all eternity. :(-->

Are Cannon's, or Rebels allowed on flights?? --> You have a good trip, :)--> and yes -- I'll pray for the safety of your flight.;)--> Have a great time. Am looking forward to the photos.

:(--> :(--> :(--> Ok!!! (just answering your question) --> Ha! :D--> Ya really think so? ;)--> ;)-->

Hmm. Ok. --> I left because I saw the edifice crumbling. What was so "concrete" in my life, had no re-bar re-enforcing it, there-fore more susceptible to damage by forces prevailing against it. :)--> I followed no one person, when I got out. I saw error, confusion, and power play happening, and decided I did not want to be a part of that game anymore. I "did the drill" from the mid 70's, to the mid 80's, and when POP started circulating, I evaporated from the Dead Sea. Since then, I have been I contact with "splinter groups", but they were not the reason I left. imo -- The splinter groups (if one wishes to call them such) offer more in biblical research, than docvic ever did, but again --- that is an imo. I'm not a pot that calls the kettle black. Perhaps I am like (others here), who are burning with indignation, and can look up from the fire and see the color of the kettle, and can call it for what it is.

oh --- by the way --- the fellowship has a web site, and it is Rabbi Yeshua, out of St. Paul, Minnesota (Kehilat Sar Shalom), though the outreach up here in Duluth is called Beth Yeshua. Maybe you can learn something from the site. From what I have seen, messianic groups are about as divided, as christian denominations. :(-->

As did Yeshua. :)--> I used to attend a messianic bible study for about a year, and one of the things I got out of it was that there was the written law, and then there was what it really meant. It was pointed out how Yeshua/Jesus would say "You have heard it said ......... but I say unto you ......" Yes -- He did a fine job of making a disturbance!! :)-->

to get back to the opinions about the debate,Charlie Daniels (on his site), had the best suggestion I have heard yet. In his "soapbox" section, he said;

OE -- :(--> :(--> If they are caught, they should be tied between two trees, standing up & spread-eagled (nekid of course) , during the height of the mosquito season. (would serve em right!)

Purty close. ;)--> It's conducive.

None of the above, for me either. While I love my job, when I walk out the door of that group home at the end of the day, I leave the job behind. Occasionally (on days off), I do wonder (at med times) if certain clients are getting them as needed, but that is about it. :)-->