Tom

Me too. BTW, I'm about to view a movie I received from Netflix, Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. Tom

Left or kicked out - I guess that's somewhat a matter of terminology and perception. I thought there was still a Way East and a Way West at the time of the separation between Doop & Heefner, and The Way, but maybe VP incorporated The Way 1st & then kicked them out. I didn't think so. I wondered why Steve and Jim didn't just tell VP to kiss off at the time. There was no twi, no authoritarian hierarchical power structure, no Way Tree (VP had gotten the "revelation" as he called it, he had taught it, but it wasn't in place in NY or CA at the time), no centralized abundant sharing. Even if VP had done something legal turning the Way into a corporation (as I said, I think that came later - very soon later), it wouldn't have mattered. There was no question in anyone's mind about loyalty to VP, the man of God - in the WC, no doubt, but not on the field. Had Steve and Jim just kept up what they were doing, everyone would have just kept up what they were doing right along with them. I just don't get it. I know one of the things VP was complaining about was that he had no way of keeping track of the money. That was his stated point of contention with Heefner; VP said Steve was doind yada, yada, yada with the money. That summer (what we were told was that Steve was taking a sabatical), Steve Perez (who God told to move to NY & told him the Word would move if he did - who started the ministry in LI) and Ed Goebel, his assistant, a couple of sharp fellows, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS (the truly self-financing way we were doing it in NY at the time). They presented it to VP at summer school. I met them after they returned from meeting with VP. His response was that he was going to centralize the ABS. He said that it was only a temporary measure. He said that he knew the way that we were doing it was the right way to do it, but that the believers were too immature to handle the money properly. He said that, after the believers matured, we would return to the grassroots way of handling ABS - the Word's way. Wait a minute! Doesn't the Word say that if a man can't handle the mammon, that God is not going to entrust that man with the true spiritual riches? How then were all these signs, miracles, and wonders happening? How then did God entrust the believers with the hearts of so many that were turning on to the Word? Are they not the true spiritual riches that the same God said he would not entrust to people who could not handle the mammon? Pretty soon, the way we had been doing the ABS was no longer the RIGHT way; it was WRONG and DEVILISH, and you'd better not bring it up in a positive light, or YOU were spiritually compromised. BS. I wonder if the leaders weren't too impressed with the value of PFAL as a tool to move the Word. We were in the midst of over a year of running back to back film classes in LI. We were so young; I think the leadership wondered what to do with people once you witnessed to them without the class & materials. Should have told VP to kiss off. Ah well - easy for me to say.

And it won't be all sweetness and light, I know, baby. Buckle up. But it will still be a ride filled with wonder. FILLED with wonderful things happening among God's people!! See you here and there, sweetheart. Tom

Well, it went to CA, NY, KS, South America, Europe, Africa. They were all genuine until coopted by VPW. And God is still working in many of the fruit thereof. But how far will it go? Until the Body is complete. This is bigger than those revivals. It is as big as God. But I still think he is up to something extraordinary in our day - as his manner is. Fine with me. The more the merrier.

Yes, well, it was more directly Steve Heefner in NY, & in LI, Steve Perez. But they, & then we, were all of the same ilk. It was something Jesus was doing. There was no comparison or competition ANYWHERE. The first time I heard Jim Doop's name, it was mentioned to me by Steve Perez. He said that Jim Doop was involved in CA like Heefner was in NY. He said he believed Doop was a prophet. He said Doop had said that we needed to witness to the greatness of the Word without any fear or holding back at all. Doop had said that, if we didn't, soon, we wouldn't be able to. That was good enough for me. I had promised (myself) that I would do whatever Steve said for two months - not because he demanded it, or presented any kind of authority structure that I was supposed to follow to be under the protective hand of God - or anything like that. He never did that. Just because he had told me about the real presence of God & Jesus Christ in this thing. He told me amazing truths from the Word, things God promised, things we could count on. I didn't know, so I told myself i would do whatever he said. If he was right, I would love him without reservation for the rest of my life. If he was wrong, I would kill him. Yeah, I was a different sort of guy in those days - SOMEWHAT. I just figured no one had the right to promise the things he was, things that, by their very nature, required an unqualified commitment of heart and life, be lying, and live. It was a pretty thorough street education. So, that was enough for me, & our tight little band on LI – we witnessed that way. And the word exploded with signs, miracles, and wonders following – I mean following right on our heals – immediately. So, if it wasn’t for Doop, if it wasn’t for Heefner, if it wasn’t for Perez, if it wasn’t for me :) . If it wasn’t for Jesus. But it was. And it is. If not you, who? If not now, when? Really, I believe that God is up to something again. Who says so? Let the redeemed of the Lord say...

Anything I can do, you know I will. PM me if you want. Love you, Ex, Tom litwin

If you knew Jim Doop at all, I didn't know him all that well at all, but, if you knew him at all, his book is NOT all about happy days back on the farm. Everything I ever heard him say, or heard that he said, would take you up short. You would have to breathe deeply, admit what he was saying was the truth, & deal with it - if you wanted the truth to live. He was a true prophet. Despite the fact (because of the fact) that tw was not/is not the churchy hierarchical organization that twi became, the ministries were super-active. One of the reasons the Word so lived. Tom

So would I love to have a copy. BTW, if the manuscript can be salvaged, or salvaged in part, with a result that would be acceptable, I'd be glad to help out in the process - for anyone who might be listening. I can edit for grammar & content & style, & I know other people who can edit very well. BTW, I private messaged with Jim Doop here on gs briefly about his book. I forget the name of the thread that caused Jim to private message me, but, people were hypothesizing about the why(s) The Way turned. I posted that the Word says that the root of all evil is the love of money, so we didn't have to look any further for the reason. Jim PM'd me in response, & said that I was right. It was all about money. Ah, I wrote something that he told me was in his book, but I just deleted it. I'm sorry; I suppose it would be imprudent for me to say anything about what he told me was in his book. Especially this. And especially if it still might get published - there are spies. Again, I'm sorry, but you can add 2+2. There were no specifics shared, & I don't know anything else about what is in his book. Tom

The book in question is: The tipping point : how little things can make a big difference Gladwell, Malcolm It deals with how large-scale social movements come about. I saw many parallels to the Jesus Movement and tw (twi before Wierwille incorporated it and turned it into a hierarchical church) when it was still truly a grassroots movement – the organic Body of Christ in action. BTW, apparently, I was wrong about the number 200. It is 150. Another fascinating book of his that deals with individual success is: Outliers : the story of success Gladwell, Malcolm, 1963- Gladwell embarks on an intellectual journey through the world of "outliers"--the best and the brightest and the most successful. He investigates what makes high-achievers different [For example, as Bill Gates would be the first to admit, his success was due to many factors other than his brilliance, tireless curiousity, work ethic, and vision. Had he been born a few short years earlier or later, had he not gone to the only high school in the country that had computers at the time, had his parents no money or emotional support for him, his life would not having resulted in Microsoft or the revolution of personal computers] by looking at their culture, family, generation, and the idiosyncratic experiences of their upbringing. It goes together rather well with The Tipping Point, although either book can be read alone. Enjoy, Tom

Absoluteley fascinating, Chockfull. Just a couple of months ago, I was reading a book about why certain things succeed and others don't. All kinds of things. Why & how the yoyo becomes popular every so often. I'm not sure he actually mentioned the yoyo, but stuff like that. Why certain businesses explode. Why certain churches explode. It had to do with group dynamics. There were a couple or three other factors that were intriinsically important & required, but one of the things, & I'm sorry I forget all the names, but there was a particular business, and a particular church, both of which were used as examples of certain principles in the study. The study was not prescriptive, telling people what they ought to do, but investigative, pursuing the reasons why certain social movements seemed to succeed when others failed. This particular business - the investigator questioned was what would have been called an executive in most business structures. But his office was the same as anyone else's. He dressed like any other worker, and confessed to having no authority over and above that of any other worker. The conclusion was that the secret of their success was that they wouldn't let the organization get to the place that it needed any more than guess how many people to run the business - 200!!! When the business required more than that, they split the workers into two groups and opened another plant. The plant could be only a few miles down the road, but the key wasn't that they just split the work force at 200, but that each plant operated in total independence. Appatently, 200 is a natural limit under which groups of people can operate in a manner they cannot at higher numbers. There is something they described as utilization of a group memory, sort of a group awareness. If someone in the think tank, or anywhere else in the organization, had an idea, he knew who he would need to talk with just down the hall in Research and Development, someone he knew in marketing, someone else in production - everyone he needed to talk to. If the idea was valid, everyone necessary to its accomplishment was already aware of it and involved in its accomplishment. If modifications were needed along the way, everyone was aware and engaged immediately. Once more than 200 people are involved, the human mind isn't capable of keeping up the awareness of people's actions to keep the initiative in tact in his mind. Then it becomes necessary for someone "higher" up to introduce rules to keep any semblance of organization present in initiatives that arise - rules concerning authority, rules of procedure, rules of policy, rules concerning rules - you get the idea. If the group grows to over 200, & someone doesn't institute this hierarchical structure, the whole things falls apart. But the catch 22 is that, when the group grows to over 200, even if someone does institute a hierarchical structure, the effectiveness, the success potential, the group memory, group cooperation, group think, the "communion" of the group reality when it was under 200 - is lost. So, it is not necessarily fatal to the overall success of the enterprise if a group grows to over 200, but it is not enough for the group to split into smaller groups of under 200. The key is that these groups must be allowed to operate independently. Another example was a Christian group back in either colonial days (I think that was the time) or maybe early U.S. days (I think they were Baptist) that operated the same way. They spread the Word throughout the entire colonial area by developing small churches in an area, leaving them to operate independently, & moving on to develope another one on down the coast. They never developed big churches. I would presume there were ministries visiting the areas - I know, from historial accounts of the time, that's the way dedicated ministers operated in those days, but there was no hierarchical structure "governing" in these areas. And their success seems phenomenal. No phenomenon - that's the Body of Christ in operation. No Way Tree, or any other hierarchical structure needed (impeding), rather believers, speaking the truth in love, growing up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. Yea and amen. Tom

Where might they be found? Are they somewhere in this thread? I got lost somewhere along the way. For what it is worth (it was worth something to me), I emailed James about the gender of the pronouns, "he" and "him," used for the word "Comforter" in John 14. I wanted to know what the Hebrew and Aramaic had to say about these verses. His response was quick, concise, considered, illuminating, and directly answered my question. Granted, much of it (not all) was a paste from his book. But, in view of the fact that it answered my question so well, that didn't bother me in the least. On the contrary, it impressed me. Not only did he address considerations involved in translating between & among the languages involved, but also, he nicely addressed the literal, figurative, and grammatical language considerations involved. It seemed a bit dense to me, but maybe I'm the one who is dense, or, at least, a novice to these languages. I figure I understood what he was saying, & replied to James, stating what I thought the application of his post meant to the verses I was considering. That was yesterday. I'm awaiting further response from him. I very much appreciate his response, & it sparked interest in the whole field. Tom

Look, you've got this thread sufficiently hijacked - at least for the time being. I'm out of here. Nice move - CHURCHY move. Yuck.

See, now rascal, I thought you were talking about me, but you said I was wrong, I & apologized. Now, you are talking about me, or am I wrong again? Me? Sneering at a church for their practices and understanding? Where SUPP-OSED wicked witchcraft spirits govern? Maybe that wasn't what you WERE saying,but now IS what you're saying. Isn't THAT just a coincidence & a 1/2? But somehow evil snake infested twi was way worse? Well, which snake would you like to be charmed with? So happens, I know a little something about witchcraft spirits from both the inside and the outside of their grasp. I'm not sneering, and I'm not judging; I'm making my own observation. Don't have to be a spiritual sharp shooter to know there is something wrong with someone rolling on the ground and convulsing - even if it is in name of worship. More subtle lack of control in the name of worship is still wrong. I know spiritual hate when I see it and spiritual love. And in answer to the initials church posts, I said how inspired the pastor could be by the true God of love, and people were born again there & loving and instructed very well in prophecy. I got delivered from the spirit of witchcraft in tw. Not twi; tw, The Way (the Lord Jesus Christ), before it was incorporated by VP, I was delivered by Steve Heefner in the Way East, counterpart to what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about, Doop & the Way West & VPW. Actually, there were quite a few of us that had to be delivered from that particular evil before we could be free to move and grow in the Lord & let him grow his church so wonderfully as he did back then. Maybe that's one reason it happened. We KNEW what we had been delivered from. You don't KNOW me, and what I know, and what I don't know any more than I know you. And FYI, I didn't need twi to teach me to not want to go to church. I came to that conclusion long before twi. That was one of the things I despised abut twi - all the putting down of churches. I didn't want to hear about churches. I wanted to hear about my Lord and his church. Silly me, & I thought it is supposed to the Word concerning the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that is our power unto salvation. But all I read is church, church, church. I thought when she says "NO," the guy is supposed to accept that. What don't you understand about "NO." Yuck!

Ah, I stand corrected - thanks.

Greetings roberterasmus. Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I certainly found the the "examples that stand out like the "sore thumb" that they are (from the Greek that is) that you, James, placed at the beginning of this thread rather enticing. Tom

Hi Chockfull, I just wanted to give you a quick thanks for your insight, voice, & heart - so thank you!!

Thanks Sunesis - done. Love to everyone in Christ, the bond of peace. Tom

Just a wee point here: The "ideal of the book" is Christ. What the heck happened to speaking the truth of the gospel of Christ to one another in love? Life is not a continuum along a line between "churches don't do enough....are to enemic" and "micro-managing." Life is in Christ, and he lives among us when we gather in his name and speak the Word to one another in love like he commanded us.

Good for you, rascal. Really. Which church or people do you think I shouldn't have dismissed that I talked about earlier or others I've gone to that I didn't talk about? The Way Fellowship that I've gone to several times out here? Hmm? How about the Pentecostal church that had wicked witchcraft spirits governing the church - even though the pastor many times was inspired by the true God? The Trinity church (that's the name of the church) that also sometimes had great teachings and wonderful praise - until people started rolling in the isles and convulsing? How about the mega-church that refuses to talk about the things of the Spirit? I guess you're exaggerating. Who has ever found another human being that he totally agreed with? Sounds like a hermit to me.

Why is it that others are making judgments, but you are just making observations? Oh, nevermind, please don't answer that - it's rhetorical. You use that word accountability often. I don't read that in the revelation to the church - or any revelation anywhere. I see submitting ourselves to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth in love. If that's what you mean, fine. It is the power of the gospel concerning Christ spoken and believed that makes us whole. If that's what you mean, fine. Any accountability defined outside that is man's set up, not the Lord's. It's vanity. If submitting to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth to one another is what we are talking about here, I'd prefer saying so. It gives the glory to God and his son. Teachers teach outside of churches also, and pastors pastor outside of churches. That's a non-sequitor, geisha. Just because it IS set up that way, doesn't mean the LORD set it up that way. The Way Tree: another man-made structure. It was just the systematizing of error in the name of accountability. They also pawned it off as the Lord having set it up that way. We, plural - as THE church - are complete in him. No strings needed. Tom

"To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with" Exactly - see, you know what it means, "receive in love." God's love. I just received this email shortly before I received the email about your post. In part, it read, "I look forward to dialoguing more regarding reality in Christ as our days draw closer to our Lord’s return. In Christ with you forever (no strings attached)." He knows what it means also. God is bringing his people together. I know you said you meant no disrespect, but where does the remark, "it is really not about you....it is about God" come from? I don't think I ever indicated that it was about me. I just don't equate a place with people. I don't need to look for a place. God does the placing, & he has placed me in the Body where it pleases him. I've just come to believe that. If I didn't, I'd probably be still looking for a place, instead of having my eyes open to all the beautiful believers that the God of ALL increase has placed by my place. He's much better at placing than I am. "We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means" Maybe so. ".....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together" I do get together with believers, but I don't want to place myself - again, God does the placing. I think Jesus Christ is doing something here, & I don't want to tell Christ how to build his church - or tell him that I have some PLACE else to go. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense, Geisha. It's the best I can do at the moment. Thanks for your concern. Tom

Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.” Good question. There’s a mega-church here. It’s growing like crazy. IMO, they’re teaching a watered down gospel (Geisha, another good question – later, OK?). My earlier remark, “their teachings are sometimes inspired. That’s a testimony to Gods’ infinite grace; I’m so thankful,” was about churches like this one. In fact, the church is named “Christ Fellowship.” Here is an email I got recently from my wife, uh, oh, can’t find the dang thing – but the gist was she said this guy had delivered a great sermon in the midst of a great service. She had to say so because we both saw this guy as just a salesman the first time we saw him “teach.” Could have been more Word, she said, but his point was good, & made well. So, point is many outside the gate are coming into their gate, & many are being born again. All praise goes to God who, as always, is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. Yes, Sunesis, I think we are “out of the loop,” or should I rather say, we are out of the many loops that are presently presenting themselves as THE loop. Remember, I teach 11th grade English. Many of my believing students are quite active in the faith & ready to say so given the opportunity. I have many sanctions on what I can say in class, but they don’t, & I can certainly afford them the opportunity to speak. I can say the bible says so & so. I can even say what I believe – I just can’t say what I believe is the truth. You really can’t touch a piece of American Lit. that doesn’t have allusions or foundations in the bible – really, that’s an amazing reality. Believing students are amazed that I know & believe. They would be in my “fellowship” in a heartbeat if I were allowed to hold one on campus – which, of course, I’m not. So, yes, I think that we are outside of the many loops that God is using to take c/o his own. But, I don’t think that leaves us out of God’s loop. He has, generally, throughout history, worked more outside the gates than within. He has no more respect for man’s gates than he has respect of persons – none. As far as churches go, Geisha, I’ve been to quite a few over the years. Lately, I’ve been listening to Christ Fellowship, especially if my wife recommends it. OK, here’s the list. Christ Fellowship Old ex-Way grad from back in the day Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad Pentecostal Even been to some Way fellowships lately Christ Fellowship: Watered down – read above. Filled with many beautiful believers – how beautiful are the feet…, loving. Not only are they a mega-church, but they have a home fellowship contingent. They call them small groups. We went to one for quite a while – felt like God led us to this group.. It was very refreshing. I loved the way they all interacted – the Spirit was working among the group many times. I even took one of their “foundational classes.” The class was run by a very humble and Spirit inspired individual. But when I tried to approach him on the subject of the Spirit – specifically power in evidence, he was like a chameleon. Couldn’t get a straight answer from him. I KNEW the lady who ran the small fellowship was overflowing with Spirit, so one day I asked her about why it seemed like many of the people in the church were overflowing with spiritual power, but wouldn't admit it.. She admitted to speaking in tongues, and agreed with me that it seemed like quite a few of the people in the church did so also, and that there seemed to be an unspoken silencing on the whole subject. It was as weird to her as it was to me. Although she was more mature spiritually than what was taught in the church in many ways, she would never contradict church doctrine or teach anything not already “baptized” as OK by the church. Everything basically proceeded from that guy who wrote “Power for Abundant Living.” I guess they think that any talk of the specifics of the Spirit might scare away all the new people. All the hard corps “fundamentalist” churches term the church Laodicean. Old ex-Way grad from back in the day: Good teaching, but added stuff to the gospel. Stuff I had to do to be made whole. I guess the gospel isn’t sufficient for that purpose. Why do people have to always add to the gospel? Sure clue that their “gospel” is watered down. Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad: I’ll mention this guy’s name. It is Mike Brophy. I’ve joined a phone hook-up, & downloaded one of his classes off the internet. Very refreshing. The gospel was presented as complete, the redemptive work of Christ as sufficient for every need. I called him a while ago, & we spoke. In the course of the conversation, he asked me what I working in the Word. I hesitated to answer him honestly, because I had been working a couple of things that definitely contradict Way doctrine – things about the One Spirit, & I didn’t want to start with an argument, but I figured what the heck, & told him. Turns out he and others he works with had worked through all that some years back & come to the same realization. God is up to something. Pentecostal: Saw some beautiful believers there, & some nice prophecy, but they wanted our money and our commitment before they even got to know us. Sure clue you are engaging in a hierarchical power structure that has the One Body under wraps. That was it for me, but I kept going because my wife liked the fellowship & the praise worship. We hung out long enough to see that there were some very wicked witchcraft spirits that were governing the thing. Yet God blessed them where he could, as his manner is. Even been to some Way fellowships lately: These guys love me from way back – I brought a lot of healing to their lives. They would love me no matter what I did. Strange, but I presented the stuff to them that I brought up to Mike Brophy, & they were receptive – said they’ve been wondering about these things for years. They said we should put this stuff together in a presentable form & show it to the Way HQ – maybe it could be in the next advanced class. Ha, good luck on that one, but it is good to hang with them from time to time. They have matured so well spiritually. Does my heart good to see it. Their fellowships don’t really have any fellowship to them until the fellowship proper is over with though. As far as accountability, “Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability...... well....we know what can happen.” The word “accountability” scares me. I don’t know about you, but I was still with the way when they were micromanaging everyone’s’ life – all in the name of accountability, so we all know what can happen with that too. I’m thankful to have a few believers who know me & will speak the Word to me where I need it – I suppose that’s what you’re talking about really. I hope so. Anyway, Geisha, that brings us to present day. I am through looking for a church. I am through looking for anything on my own. I am looking to the God of all increase. He is up to something these days, & I am following the tracks. It is between my heart and his. And due to his big heart, my heart is growing bigger. He’ll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They’re changing me, & I’m changing them.

Ah, deep breath, :).

Chockfull, I know your post wasn't directed to me, but it wasn't private either, so I hope you don't mind if I put in my thoughts here. I've spent a lot of years feeling like a displaced Christian without a home wondering where I belong if anywhere anymore. Back there in the days we have been talking about, I never needed to think about increase. My mental picture was that I was surrounded by a protective barrier that was keeping out all the gazillions of people who wanted what I had, but that God wouldn't let in any more than I could handle in love. I'd tell him how ready I was to handle how many more in love, & he'd let them in. We went from maybe 5 or 6 people made up of friends and "old" (teenagers who had been in the Word for about a year) grads to over 30 in a few short months, maybe two or three months. A while back - well from time to time, but a while back for one instance - in the midst of my bemoaning my aloneness when I thought I should be enjoying the fellowship of the saints, the verse came to mind that God has placed us/ME in the body where it pleased him. Kind of took me up short. I decided to quit moaning & look at all the believers that were around me, & treating them like believers instead of making believe we were democrats, republicans, teachers, or whatevers. Behold, they responded in kind. Why wouldn’t they; they’re believers after all. There were some remarkable results with the power of God healing people of serious (terminal) disease, but that’s not the point. Sunesis said that God had prepared people’s hearts back in the day, & that’s why the response was so great. She was right. People say today is different. Jesus said, “Don’t you say, there are yet four months, and then comes harvest? Behold, I say unto you, “Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, for they are white already to harvest.” Jesus sacrificed his life outside the city gates. That’s where his grace is received. We have no present home. There are so many of us outside the gates – HEARTS PREPARED OR SHALL I SAY HUNGRY. There are so many teaching a watered down gospel in churches. God still meets people where they are humble, & their teachings are sometimes inspired. That’s a testimony to Gods’ infinite grace; I’m so thankful. There are others who are actually teaching the Word – not Way doctrine, not NOT Way doctrine – the Word – purely refreshing, delivering, and powerful. Point? The door is open, as it always has been, for us to walk into the grace behind the veil. How many are you willing to receive in true love? How many am I? They’re waiting, prepared or not, to whatever degree, but they’re waiting!!! God will let in as many as you say. Really, that’s as simple as it is. Response?

"Are we healed by faith and miracles or by medicine, reason and bed rest?" Another either/or proposition: Are these two alternatives mutually exclusive? Can't the healing be some of both?