Tom

If memory serves, TWI used to wear the cult label proudly. They said it was the word "sect" in the bible - used of the body of believers of the time. Acts 5:17 ¶Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. Easton's Bible Dictionary Sect (Gr. hairesis, usually rendered "heresy", Acts 24:14; 1 Chr. 11:19; Gal. 5:20, etc.). meaning properly "a choice," then "a chosen manner of life," and then "a religious party," as the "sect" of the Sadducees (Acts 5:17), of the Pharisees (15:5), the Nazarenes, ie., Christians (24:5). It afterwards came to be used in a bad sense, of those holding pernicious error, divergent forms of belief (2 Pet. 2:1, Gal. 5:20).

Oak, Once inquiry into truth develops a political base - as in "Hey are you with us or against us?" the quest for truth ceases and becomes a play for power. Accurately desribed in the wizard of Oz analogy. Anything certified by the wizard becomes acceptable. Anything "other" is designated by the wizard as cult. A black & white mindset that the story, in the end, shows is fallacious.

Jeff, your assessment of how hard it is to assess what was going on seems right on to me; although I think there are a lot of previous TWI leadership here that may be very into being honest with you. Be that as it may or may be - I was never top leadership in any place - thank God - but anything you would you like to know, please ask. I did hang in there from '72 till '96 in one capacity or another

Dot, my heart goes out to you. Your original thread became exactly what you did not want it to become (all because of discussion about the Trinity - but don't tell anyone). No doubt they are sincere. So what, right? Let's not even go there. Thanks to whomever put this thread somewhere other than your own. The Jesus TWI taught WAS & IS your brother, but maybe he is not equal to you (as in being brought down to your state), but you are equal to him (as in being brought up to his state - as he is so are we in this world). He partook of our human deficiencies in every aspect, so that we partake of his glorified divinity. Still, he is not God any more than we are - identifying as we do with his identity. As to who he is, when he walked the earth, he asked his disciples that question - his very own disciples mind you. Peter responded that he was the Son of God. Jesus said that God revealed that to him. Well, if God had to reveal to Peter who Jesus was when Jesus was standing right in front of Peter, that's STILL the way it is. Other than that no one knew who he was - the Son of God, what???. My gosh - if no one knew then who he was, now he is dead, raised, glorified, functioning head of the entire Body of Christ. Can our peanut brains possibly figure out who he is? No!!! So, some 300 years later a bunch of people get together and decide he is God. GOD!!! We are the ones. We've put God in a box, & we are going to market him. PEOPLE, deciding who God is, deciding who Jesus is. PULLEASE! They'e going to do better than the Holy Spirit did for Peter when our Lord was standing right in front of him, the Holy Spirit revealing to Peter who Jesus was? God forbid. The "church" definition? No thanks. One of the defining characteristics of the antichrist is that he sets himself in the temple of God & says that he is God. Jesus never did that. Why not? Was he trying to be mysterious - screwing with our brains? No, Jesus knew better than to say he was God, or he would have said so plainly - he wasn't shy to speak the truth. So, any Jesus pretending to be God is antichrist. He is not absent as TWI said. That doesn't make him God - as others say. He is still the Way - the Son of God, the link between man & God for those who want to go to God. Stop the debate. Stop thinking he is absent. Stop thinking maybe he is God or maybe not. Just go through him to God - he is, after all, the way. He is not going to hold your lack of understanding against you. He is, after all, the door. For me, here, argument ended. Love ya Dot - really. Tom

G: “You would have to know my husband” T: Would I have to? Really? I think I'd rather not. My wife loves my compliments too. So what? It doesn't belong in place of an honest answer in a discussion of this magnitude. In addition? Fine. In place of? No! Go get a thread - see who shows up. You don't care - I get it. G: “He calls many people brother--or sister--the people at our church LOVE it. That is just Tom. And I see how YOU respond--feel better?” T: "Brother?" Haven't heard that from him. Haven't been here for a while, so sorry if I'm wrong, but I don't see that in either of you when you post. Oh, the people in YOUR CHURCH love it. Okay, that's fine. Just trying to keep the record straight. G: “He was being polite to Oakspear. I asked him to.” T: Polite? Okay, well, speaking of thin veneer. G: “Second, I think he used the word :purview: as function==he did NOT damn you to hell--HE NEVER WOULD.” “He was telling you the truth.” T: Okay, so, truthfully, where am I going? Hmm? Be truthful now. It shows anyway, might as well say it. G: “In our church and many churches across the country--we are warned NOT to listen to groups like TWI and their version of "Another" Jesus. My Pastor does it EVERY week.” T: So, I'm talking why? When you are not listening? "EVERY week!" My gosh, doesn't your Jesus lovingly have a place in your heart to the point where you don't have to be warned EVERY week? G: “I don't care if you like it or not.” T: Yeah, I got that. It was my 1st clue that I shouldn't care about what you're saying. G: “I wish I knew that back in the day. Would have saved me a GREAT deal of pain. They prey on people just like me who want their ears tickled with an easy health and wealth kinda gospel. Sin--hey no biggie. Where is the transformation? The repentance?” T: I understand SISTER. We are not TWI - at least almost all of us are not. We are not all without transformation. We are not all without repentance. Just because we are not you, doesn't mean we are TWI. I don't know - I'm thinking maybe if you understand that, it will open the door to honest discussion - regardless of your pastor's remonstrance against that. C'mon, doesn't that kind of "church" warning sound all too TWI familiar? "Geisha?" Stop acting the role of a freakin' geisha. You're more than that. Daughter of God, don't be afraid to think. G: “Logically just consider without the claws coming out. How can you confess and make LORD a Jesus you deny is who He is. You have made a NEW one -- so did VP.” T: The "new" Jesus, your Jesus, was introduced into "the church," the Roman Catholic church, about 300 years after the original Jesus. G: “Why the words from Paul?? It matters. VP gave us an absent Christ and we were to set ourselves up to take His place. Our interprtation of the bible.” T: Right, that's TWI, not me. Not many here I'll wager. G: Your reaction to a short post is so telling. So similar to mine in TWI--the claws came right out and all that thin veneer of Christianity falls away when a word is whispered that you may have it wrong. T: I may have it wrong? No doubt, in part, I have it wrong. But you don't even know who my Jesus is. He is not absent. He is not the Jesus of TWI. He is...well, never mind, you don't care, you said so - the "church” says it for you. G: Tom and I are surely NOT the ones to do it T: Then don't jump in pretending truth. If you can't teach it, you don't know it. Wisely, you would still be open to considerations – unless, there is a time when you have seen enough integrity in your teachers to accept their remonstrance on “certain” things, like the Trinity, without understanding – like VP told us to do regarding the Trinity. G: Satanic blindness was the topic--I think we have stayed on track. T: Indeed, the perfect examples.

Ooh, la, la, how pretty is VERY pretty? What is this - gratuitous prettiness? And this has what to do with an honest conversation that is going on here? Not to disparage the limited extent of your thought processes, but how about ending the day by answering the questions posed instead of being condescending, demoralizing, & all that pukey stuff that we are not supposed to be to our brethren. Oh, okay, I get it - we are NOT brethren because we don't believe in the trinity, so, therefore Not your purview - not the range of interest or activity that we can anticipate you to allow. But we should consider your pukey view of us and our brethren into our minds regardless of your statement that you don't even consider anything about our position. Why should we do this? Why should we give up our free will to kiss the ring? Because the church says so?Hey, you're not interested in me? I don't care what you say if you don't care what I say. Go enjoy prettiness tonight, but don't pretend to other more spiritual concerns among our people that you won't even own up to calling brethren because you believe us condemned to hell. If it will do to me what it did to you, I'd rather not.

.Absolutely!!! Not only that, but people saw spirits where there was no problem. And not only that, but I think that - not saying this is discerning of spirits - not saying that it is not, but I'd bet money that - you know, here's Martindale screaming about the latest move of the Adversary throughout the ministry, maybe spirits of bondage, for example. Maybe that wasn't revelation from God because of Martindale's infallable spiritual perception and awareness. Seems more likely to me that his "awareness" of bondage was a personal problem. Not only that, but his teaching was the overflow of that spirit's [his own personal bondage spirit - a 5-star general] input as the spirit, a ruling spirit, through Martindale's teaching, was opening the doors of entrance for bondage spirits to move in packs through the ministry as loyal TWI/Martindale believers listened to the God-man speak the words of "God." That's how the ministry so quickly torgued toward its demise like a cockroach you might flush down the toilet. At the bottom of the swirling water, there ain't no way that cockroach is getting out. Everytime (near the end) that Martindale opened his mouth, evil moved exponentially through TWI. End of story. No, newlife, I'm very appreciative that you started this thread. I knew a lot of this phoney accusation was going on, but I really wasn't aware how ubiqitous it became. That's rather shocking to me. I know I was delivering people, some of whom had been captive spiritually in certain areas of their lives for many years - right up to the end when I got booted out in umm, maybe 1995 (some things are nice to forget so precisely), but I also know there were some believers that the "higher powers" pressured me into - you know, there are spirits active in your life - do this or else. My only comfort there is that I didn't become a major hit man for the Adversary as things went South, & that as I worked things out, the Adversary figured I'd be more of a hindrance than as asset to his purposes & got rid of me - no doubt pegged as possessed (there, I'm on topic :). Topically burned & more than ever thankful for Sonscreen, Tom

Thanks for the thank you RainbowsGirl! Isn't it cool?

That's very cool Jeff. I would expect no less, & I ask no more. Tom

I can't seem to edit, so here are paragraphs 2 & 3 from the above post corrected: How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest, COULDN'T. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought. He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right? God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long:

The following is from a section of a book I'm writing, so if it seems sort of canned, maye that's why. It needs to be edited and added to. I'd just like to say 1st that - you know - everyone is welcome to their opinion. Someone said that, in reality, possession is rare. I guess it depends on what is meant by possession. Someone else said that possession doesn't mean that one is always totally out of control. I agree with the latter, but I also think that possession happens much more often than most people think rather than rarely. This, however, is NOT the spotting a devil spirit in everyone who disagrees with you like many saw in TWI - especially in the later days. How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought. He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right. God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long: Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. Long Island, NY March 1972 Behold the Glory of the Lord. “Look in the mirror and behold the glory of the Lord. This practice will put you in touch with the Christ in you,” Or so I heard. It didn’t work for me when I tried it. When I looked into the mirror and said behold the glory of the Lord, something malevolent was staring back at me. Shortly after I completed the PFAL class, I started to suspect that at least some, possibly most, of the spiritual revelations I had experienced were not from the true God but from the Adversary. I told Eddie my suspicions and asked him what do about it. He said that as I continued to grow in the Word any dark spirits would just leave, and, if there were any still around, we would deal with that also. I was still very hesitant to speak for the Lord. Right about this time, early one morning, I ran into one of my old junkie acquaintances. He offered me some heroin, and, without really thinking about it, I got high with him. Heroin has a way of artificially getting rid of your fears; I spent the rest of the day having a grand old time telling people about the Lord. It was easy, natural, and fun. Later that evening, after dinner, I retired to my room. I realized that I did not know how the book, the Bible, ended. I didn’t know the end of the story. And I wanted to know, so I opened my bible to the last page and read it. I was amazed. “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the lamb. In the midst of it, and on either side of the river, the tree of life, which bear 12 manner of fruits, and yielded or fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall serve him. And they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the sun for the Lord God gives them light, and they shall reign forever and ever.” It was beautiful, but I wanted now to know what came before this, so I turned to the second to the last page and began to read there. “And I saw a new heaven and a new Earth for the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” So exquisitely beautiful it was that I kept reading backwards. I started to nod off, but I fought to stay awake. Then I heard a tinkling sound in the distance, and, as I listened, it became louder and until I recognized it as the sound of chains rattling. I wondered if I was having a flashback. I’d never experienced anything like that before. The sound went on long, loud, and clear enough that it could not be mistaken. It was the sound of chains rattling loudly. It sounded ghostlike and devilish. I became afraid. Then I heard the sound of a witch laughing. It was very close to the sound of the wicked witch of the West in the movie The Wizard of Oz, only much more realistic. Not anyone who has ever heard it will ever forget it. If you have never heard it, be thankful. “I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ,” I called out. It laughed at me again. Now I was afraid more than ever. I had used the name of Jesus Christ, and it did not work. Apparently, I had spoken without a heart of believing boldness but of fear. I felt defenseless. I had nothing else. I was at the nonexistent mercy of the devil. Then the devil spirit offered me a deal. I’ll not tell you what it was. But the devil spirit told me that if I did something, some very specific abominable thing, it would leave me alone. Even though I felt powerless, God used my experience in the Street to help me. I recognized this deal has something that the Party Pals called the Chinese firecracker trick. When we were in fifth grade, we put together some money and tried to buy some firecrackers. This was illegal in New York, so we tried to buy illegally. We gave some money to this kid. He said he was going to go up into this apartment and come back with the firecrackers. We said we wanted to go with him, but he said the person in the apartment would not like that. As you might suspect, he never did come back, and, after that, we always knew that, on the Street, you never give money without having the goods in hand. We were never duped into arguing about lack of trust. It’s just not the way to do business. I realized that if I did what the devil said, it would NOT leave me alone. I said, “You’re a liar,” more as a statement of recognition than an accusation. The devil immediately left. It was the power in the truth of the Word that saved me. Rye Presbyrterian Church Rye, NY March 1972 The next day was Sunday. Every Sunday we had what we called a limb meeting at which all the believers from Long Island met with all the believers from the Rye Beach area. Junkies who have severe heroin habits, usually have two states, sick and normal. They cop heroin many times just to go from being sick to normal. Only very good dope, or a lot of it, will get them high. Since I hadn’t gotten high for a while, I had what might be called a heroin hangover. I felt pretty sluggish all day long. I thought about not going to the limb meeting, but I knew I needed it. By the time I roused myself enough out of the sluggish state I was in to get on the road to, it looked like I was going to the late to the meeting. But limb leader in Rye was a very charismatic fellow named Steve. He had a hard time getting all us young kids to get to the meeting on time. Write about this time, sort of as a joke, but to make his point, Steve resorted to pulling out a gun and shooting latecomers as they came in the door. Of course, the gun had blanks. We were all young enough not to be offended. But I certainly did not want to come in late. But I did. As I approached the double doors to the main meeting room, I could hear Steve praying. A really didn’t want to walk in while Steve was praying. But even more so, I did not want to walk in after Steve had finished and take a bullet for being late. I thought maybe I could sneak in unnoticed, so I quietly and slowly opened the doors. Steve was an amazing person. I remember him saying that we all naturally excel at a certain manifestations of the spirit. Some people found it hard to speak in tongues. We all understood what he was saying because most of us already spoken tongues. Others found it hard to discern spirits. Again, we all understood what Steve was saying. Many people found the idea of interacting with devil spirits fearful. Steve excelled at demonstrating the power that Christians have over evil spirits. I would learn that field just by listening to come talk at meetings. If I exercised a spiritual ear, I could see that he was addressing spirits and commanding them sometimes just by the words he said as he taught or prayed. As I opened the doors, the first words I heard him praying for, “and I thank you Lord for removing the effects of the drug heroin.” Immediately, my sluggishness left. Busted! Steve, my small fellowship coordinator sitting about two-thirds of the way back on the left side, turned around and looked at me. Twice busted. A remarkable dynamic of the spirit of Jesus Christ can move through a body of believers when a number of them are awake spiritually. I determined that I wasn’t going to leave that night without being sure that I was 100 percent delivered. After the fellowship onto the back of the church to find Steve. He was there, alone. I started to tell him the story of what happened the night before. When I got to the part about the spirit’s laughter, he stopped me. “I don’t want you to imitate the laughter for me,” he said. “I’ve heard it before – several times.” And he turned and started to walk out of the room. I couldn’t believe he wasn’t going to help me. I stammered, “Uh, Steve, d d don’t you think maybe I could use, that it would be good if maybe you would minister healing to me or something?” As soon as I said those words, I felt completely free; I knew at that exact time that the spirit left me. Steve didn’t answer my question. He turned to me, looked me in the eye, and said, “You just got it.” I literally left the room skipping and leaping and running and praising God.

Right Sudo, "Having problems with a gut?" I also had acid reflux. The doc warned me about the seriousness of that over time & wanted to put me on medicine for it. Bahm, within a few days of starting South Beachm that was totally gone. NICE benefit!

Jonny Lingo, For what it's worth, I believe you. Thanks for sharing your deliverence. Tom

Jeff, "Dear Tom, Ride higher brother? To the froward, HE is froward. Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO." Rock on Jeff. HE can be as froward as all those who are froward & still maintain the higher perspective. He is, after all, The MOST High. Just don't get too much blood on your feet. David was a rather good example also, but because of the blood on his feet, he couldn't build the Temple for his Lord. That's okay; I'm not faulting David either. I'm not saying to be afraid of blood, but God will be sufficiently froward to the froward whether you are froward or not. Vengeance is His. Salvation is yours. You are not supposed to WARN about obstructions to salvation until all have been warned, but preach the gospel of peace until all have heard. It's real life here. God wants you to live salvation, not be a martyr skyrocketing warning against the Adversary. Ah, either way, I'm in your corner. Like I said, you're on a roller coaster ride that hasn't ended. Kick it. Just, you know, God has called us to peace. I've spent most of my young, middle, & later years skirting the limits of adhesion. Always, on a race track, that sooner or later results in crashing & burning. But God has kept me. I'm not saying not to rail on. I'm just saying that, in the meanwhile, remember, most of all, God wants you to be blessed. Let Him bless your life.

Hi Belle. Thanks for the mention of South Beach & the tips - we'll definitely follow up on those. Before I started South Beach, my doctor told me I was prediebetic - glucose level in the 280's & she wanted me on medicine. A week & 1/2 into phase 1 of South Beach, & I had normal glucose levels. Some one was mentioning that for some reason, they found it hard to get off pastas, carbs, sugary treats. The reason is because of sugar addiction. Phase 1 of South Beach is the most severe, but even in that phase, your diet is new & varied, & you eat as much as you want. There is no pasta, bread, or alcohol in phase 1. But the cool thing about it is that after those 1st 2 weeks, you've broken the sugar addiction. in phases 2 & 3, you start to add back in some of the things not allowed in phase 1. One of the cool things I noticed though is that, after phase 1, my tastes had changed. 100% whole wheat pasta is a little much for me, but I require some degree of whole wheat in my pasta or there is just no flavor to it - it is just too bland. Also breads that are really dense complex carb breads are a treat once in a while, but the idea of having a white bread sandwich everyday - no thanks. I'd as soon eat air. Also, there is no calorie counting - just eating good foods. Chas, about drinking. The designer of South Beach is a cardiologist. He's okay with not drinking, but he thinks that red wind is beneficial (obviously it can be overdone). Next in line, if you must, I think is cocktails - as long as there is no sugary mix in there. Then comes white wine - I might have cocktails & white wine reversed, but I don't think so. Last is beer. He frowns upon beer. Even light beers are usually almost the same carb content as the regular - somewhat of a misleading scam going on there. Personally, I find that drinking beer & staying fit don't work well for me. So, I let my wife educate me on red wines. Now, I'm sophisticated .

Thanks goe - it's good to see you're still singing.

Hi Jeff. You asked, "Is their any other input on this TWI standard of likening people who pick on Dr. Wierwille to carrion eaters?" You also said, "My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops." Yes, you've had quite a change of opinion, & you're obviously emotional about it. That's not a slam. TWI put emotions on the backburner as, at best, suspect. I'm not doing that. Emotions are indicators of the inner workings of your being. They ought to be given at least that much respect, acknowledged, their sources sought for, & then reconciled with the broader picture of what you are all about. In the perspectives of many Native Americans, Hawk is a messenger of wisdom and peace because, flying high, Hawk tells us not to get caught in the emotions of the moment, but to see the larger picture. I use the Native American symbol of Hawk because I think you need a different perspective than TWI to relate to. Your anger is righteous, and the emotions that you're high & rough riding on are - well, the roller coaster ride's not over. Your realization of the evil in VP's life impacts you because of your personal investment in what you thought he was & also the hold that still has on people you love. That's understandable. But there are worse evils - other, deeper carrion, if you will, that you can eat. How far down do you wish to peel the onion? How long do you want to yell about carrion from your rooftop. As I said, there is smellier carrion out there. You do tend to become what you eat. I think it is the Word we are supposed to be yelling from the rooftops. Those you love who have been infected with the poison of adulating VP were also told to respect the Word - while, at the same time being blinded to the true Word, Jesus Christ, by the vail VP put over their eyes. But when they look to the Lord, the vail will be taken away by Jesus Christ; therefore, it is incumbent upon us to live the Word. It is a difficult transition for those who thought TWI was the way. But the true Way rings true. Listen. He speaks. If you listen, you will hear his voice. If you look at darkness, darkness leads you. But if you walk in the light, not only will you see the darkness, but you will see how to dispell it. Those you love need to see light in their dark place, so they can see the way out. Hawk, flying high, draws a line in your life. On the other side of the line, your life will change & all things will be higher in quality. It is a high calling. Ride higher, my brother. Tom

All God really wants us to do is believe on the one whom he sent. And many of us did until TWI talked us out of it. Some years after I "got out," my wife's best friend - another extwi - came to visit. She was happy, blessed, & SPIRITUAL. She brought us a gift of a CD of some of the popular Christian music that was out at the time (that I didn't listen to). While she was there, I had an errand, & she handed me the CD to listen to as I left the house I didn't go straight home, but drove around after the errand, listening to the CD. One song in particular was praising Jesus, &, as I listened to it - there is no better way to describe it than the vail came off my heart, & I remembered that this was the Jesus that I had first been turned on to when I got involved with The Way before VP made his power play & replaced the joints and bands of the Body of Christ that were ministering the living Christ to me with the iron "guidelines" of the Way Tree. My heart welled up with the joy of seeing my loving Lord again, & I balled my eyes out as I drove along. Jesus is the Way. Boy, did we get talked out of that one. But he still is. And the living Word of God.

Hi Dot (& Waysider again :D), Like Waysider, I remember in the early days being told to ask God for understanding before fellowships. It worked! A look at the previous verses in Ch. 3 of 2 Cor. helps: 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ [the vail is done away in Christ - Jesus Christ was "the absent Christ" in TWI - the resulting legalism with VP as the head of the body replacing Christ put the vail back over our hearts]. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart [that's where the blindness comes in - in the heart when Jesus & God don't live there. The heart is the area of Jesus' work hooking us up with the Father in our identity with His son]. 16 Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away [sounds like your friend had the right idea]. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord [some living Word in that verse - changing the viewer into the same image as her Lord as she sees him in the Word as in a mirror beholding her new identity in Christ]. So good to "see" you again, Dot. I've missed you.

Thanks Waysider, I can't seem to edit the above, so I've rewritten it here with corrections & an added sentence at the end: Dear people, I haven't been here for quite a while. It warms my heart to see so many of your names again. I've only read the 1st & last pages of this thread, so let me apologize if I'm not in synch with the whole flow of conversation, but I will try to stay somewhat within the direction of the original posts. What I’m about to say can seem trite or maybe not trite, but the same old basics when we maybe feel that the same old basics have been around since the “old days;” therefore, there must be something else needed to answer the question of why we don’t see more healing. But I ask you to look past that into the truth of what I’m saying – not a bunch of disparate principles, but a flow of truth, the connectedness of which we’ve lost. The simplest answer is that if signs, miracles, and wonders follow them that believe, then people do not believe the Word. Okay, so what? How about a solution? Stop praying for people to be healed. I don’t see Jesus praying for people to be healed. First he taught the Word. When people believed, they came to him for healing. He STILL didn’t pray for their healing; instead, he healed them. When he sent the disciples out, Jesus didn’t tell them to pray for people to be healed. He told them to heal. Freely you have received; freely give. He told them to preach that the kingdom of Heaven was at hand & if people believed, heal them. I think there is so much division among ex-Way believers, there is just no point in arguing about doctrinal dang associated with The Way International or groups that have developed from them – like administrations vs. covenants, grace vs. law, and grace vs. works - or Christian vs. non-christian. The Word's direction is plain – when there is division, go back to Jesus Christ, & him crucified. And I don’t give a damn who is right & who is wrong – as soon as there are sides, there is division. Jesus, like the Old Testament sacrificial animal, was slain outside the camp. That’s where the healing is – outside the camp or the established religio-political camps of today. We have to go outside the camp to see healing because that’s where the living Word was sent to be sacrificed for our healing. That’s the Word we need to preach. They believe; we heal. They don’t believe; it’s endless squabbles & division. Jesus Christ has got to be bigger than all that. So we have to go there – to where he is bigger than the endless squabbling and divisions to see healing. There is no face – born of ego – that can be maintained in the face of him who had his face torn beyond recognition so that we could go beyond our pretensions, and, finally, be healed. I think that is the Word, & if people believe it, they will be healed. BTW, to those who know of my accident, my face continues to be healed these many years later. And as far as finding fault with someone's believing when that one isn't healed - stop listening to people with beams in their eyes. They can't see anything. Love to you all, Tom

Dear people, I haven't been here for quite a while. It warms my heart to see so many of your names again. I've only read the 1st & last pages of this thread, so let me apologize if I'm not in synch with the whole flow of conversation, but I will try to stay somewhat within the direction of the original posts. What I’m about to say can seem trite or maybe not trite, but the same old basics when we maybe feel that the same old basics have been around since the “old days;” therefore, there must be something else needed to answer the question of why we don’t see more healing. But I ask you to look past that into the truth of what I’m saying – not a bunch of disparate principles, but a flow of truth, the connectedness of which we’ve lost. The simplest answer is that if signs, miracles, and wonders follow them that believe, then people do not believe the Word. Okay, so what? How about a solution? Stop praying for people to be healed. I don’t see Jesus praying for people to be healed. First he taught the Word. When people believed, they came to him for healing. He STILL didn’t pray for their healing; instead, he healed them. When he sent the disciples out, Jesus didn’t tell them to pray for people to be healed. He told them to heal. Freely you have received; freely give. He told them to preach that the kingdom of Heaven was at hand & if people believed, heal them. I think there is so much division among ex-Way believers, there is just no point in arguing about doctrinal dang associated with The Way International or groups that have developed from them – like administrations vs. covenants, grace vs. law, and grace vs. works - or Christian vs. non-christian. The Word's direction is plain – when there is division, go back to Jesus Christ, & him crucified. And I don’t give a damn who is right & who is wrong – as soon as there are sides, there is division. Jesus, like the Old Testament sacrificial animal, was slain outside the camp. That’s where the healing is – outside the camp or the established religio-political camps of today. We have to go outside the camp to see healing because that’s where the living Word that was sent to heal be sacraficed for our healing. That’s the Word we need to preach. They believe; we heal. They don’t believe; it’s endless squabbles & division. Jesus Christ has got to be bigger than all that. So we have to go there – to where he is bigger than the endless squabling and divisions to see healing. There is no face – born of ego – that can be maintained in the face of him who had his face torn beyond recognition so that we could go beyond our pretensions, and, finally, be healed. I think that is the Word, & if people believe it, they will be healed. BTW, to those who know of my accident, my face continues to be healed these many years later. Love to you all, Tom

Was he right for once? He was almost always right, but you can be so right and so wrong at the same time. And he was almost always wrong.

Your assignment is to memorize Kit's post before you go to sleep tonight - 11:00 PM for Corps, 12:00 for WOWs, everyone else doesn't count, but you can emulate either of the above standards if you hope for greatness. Dang, you never belonged THERE - the legalism of those deadlines, but you do belong in the substance of Kit's post - in a place in communication with God in which TWI isn't mentioned or thought about. In that light, back to the song - You may think you are a loner, but you belong where Loretta waits with high heal shoes & low cut sweater. If you can dig the spiritual analogy - "Go home, boy."

I'm thinking... Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged. Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged. Get back Jojo. :B) Again, seriously - but not too seriously - you're very welcome. It's been great "talking" with you.

http://65.127.124.62/south_asia/4483241.stm.htm Cambodian Troops Quarantine Quan'sul Military Forces quarantine Quan'sul There has been a small outbreak of “zombism” in a small town near the border of Laos in North-Eastern Cambodia. The culprit was discovered to be mosquitoes native to that region carrying a new strain of Malaria which thus far has a 100 percent mortality rate and kills victims in fewer than 2 days. After death, this parasite is able to restart the heart of its victim for up to two hours after the initial demise of the person where the individual behaves in extremely violent ways from what is believed to be a combination of brain damage and a chemical released into blood during “resurrection.” Cambodian officials say that the outbreak has been contained and the public has no need to worry. General Ary Serey had this to say, "We have obtained samples of this new parasite and plan to learn how it starts the heart and other major organs of the deceased. We intend to use this to increase the quality of life for all." US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice opposed the plan saying that the Cambodian government holds a great biological weapon and should destroy it immediately. Cambodian officials have yet to comment. A United Nations team will be dispatched to Cambodia to confirm the safety of biological research in Cambodia.