Tom

I'm hoping some Christians (or some who understand) can explain why The Trinity is important to many Christians, why VPW's anti-Trinity stance was significant, and how the non-Trinity view may have affected other doctrines of Christianity in TWI. (What might have been intended and unintended consequences.) What role does the Trinity play and what did VPW disrupt? Short answer: they believe disagreement with their doctrine to be an offense to their God by the damned.

I know I wasn't asked, but I just clicked on reply. I figure it is impossible to put God into a doctrinal box, and man's ultimate precipitous,prideful point of decline to try to do so. Concerning Jesus Christ, doing so precludes any further revelation about him whom I most desire to know.

Twinky, that's without price.

Cogent! I recently witnessed a brief give and take, and give back and ? between two individuals. The gist: Individual 1: I'm an alcoholic, and I can only thank God that I've been separated from my wife and two daughters since my daughters were very young. I'm not drinking presently, but I'm not really sober in my thinking, emotions, and spirit. They know about my sickness, & we don't have any satisfactory relationship. One day I would like to have a satisfactory relationship, but I haven't lived with them since my eldest daughter was less than 5 years old, so I am thankful that they haven't been negatively affected by my life because I know alcohol is an enemy that is out to kill me. Individual 2: I have to say you're wrong if you think that your life doesn't negatively affect your children. I personally understand drinking and drugging and their consequences. People are dead. I likewise was separated from the mother of my two boys when they were 2 and 5 years old. I never talked about it in front of my children. Recently, my oldest, now an adult, came to live with me while he tried to kick heroin - which he did. He came to me because he knew that I wouldn't swallow any of his addict think. You can't run addict think on someone who has been an addict. His stay was challenging, but great. It was amazing in our many times sharing how similar our lives were. How could that be seeing I had never even mentioned my past while he was a young boy? Call it the psychology that most of a person's personality is formed by the time he or she is 5 years old. Call it genetics. Call it something spiritual like God or prayer or curses that crosses state lines & generations, but there's a connection you can't get away from. On the other hand, if you do sober up in your spirit and emotions, you can be a great positive effect on their lives even now. God has opened great doors for people along these lines. i think that man was right. I know it goes against the grain of American individualism, & sounds like a pseudo-Eastern spiritualism to the Judeo-Christian ethic, but I believe we are connected to every thing, person, colleague, group member, friend, family member, housemate. Socks, you said as much. OK, now take to the One Body. 1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. We're connected, and we all affect everyone else. There's no getting away from it. Yet no one but you walks in your shoes. I read earlier today what was supposed to be the 5 biggest regrets that people have when they die. The one of the 5 that people most regret is that they didn't express and live more openly and honestly what was in their minds and hearts. At the end, it doesn't matter in the least that you spoke and lived according to other people's expectations. So, what the heck can that possibly have to do with unity? When God comforts me, He does so because He loves ME, individually, no doubt. But the Word says that He comforts us, so that we can comfort others with the comfort wherewith we are comforted of God. How is it that my comfort will comfort another? Because we are related. I don't have to follow a prescribed witnessing/sales technique. All I'm supposed to be doing is bearing witness to what God has & is doing in my life. It is perfect for me to speak thus only because we are all related, & it is exactly what others need to hear at that time. No regrets on my death bed. I've spoken clearly and honestly what is going on in the innermost part of my being. It's as cool as can be. Corinthians is of comfort to us today because we are all related on a larger scale, but it was of more direct significance to the Corinthians because they were more intimately related. There are major devil spirits that are in charge of individual attack strategies on individual cities. God sends good spirits to engage them in the behalf of good. Paul addresses individual churches in individual cities because they are involved in the same spiritual milieu working around them and among them and in them. They are members in particular engaged in a great relationship enterprise. Talk about individuality. I don't have to be conformed to this world, "children, tossed to and fro," but speaking the truth in love, as Christ effectually works in me (and you, you) may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. That's what it means to reconcile & be at peace. Christ is the glue of the peace. There IS unity. We (individually) just work to keep it between and among us. And so grow up into it. I believe all this is realized WAY more in the hope - the ONE hope BTW. People will be growing crops then after all. We will be so much more real as individuals in the One Body then. Hey all, since we're all pilgrims passing through, remember tomorrow where you're going, where you ARE today spiritually. People call it Easter. Other people call it Resurrection Sunday. I read that we are not supposed to be observers of days and of times. Raised with him and you (this is the day the Lord has made - that's what I'm talking about - rejoice and be glad in it), Tom

Excellent points about children & responsibility. And well said. Quick points: In Romans, it talks about sin & sins. Sins are things we do. Sin is a principle in operation in our lives. A quick read or word study in Romans with that in mind should be revealing. There is also iniquity. It is a principle like sin, but emphasizes a skewed perspective on good & truth. There is a particular spirit of iniquity. Someone under its influence can't view even the purest act without something messed up to think or say about it. Iniquity is like that; it involves a sort of anti anything godly enjoyment. Sorry I'm not taking more time to be more precise. It's coming on 3:30 AM - gotta sleep. Hope this makes some sense to you. Check out Romans, especially the 1st 8 chapters. Both sin and sins are spoken of and dealt with - I mean really dealt with not just in subject matter to study, but in life matters by God in Christ. PS to Spec: finally started your book, & got a hook from it stuck into my neural net. Looking forward to getting reeled in. God bless all, Tom

Wow, so much has been said! Let me start by addressing some of what you said, Spec. You can assume that most of what you said that I don't address, I found sweet to my soul. Spec: Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply! Tom: Thanks for that. Spec: Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes. Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word! The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh! Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9) Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7) So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest! But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony. Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.) Tom: No disagreement with your line, but, if I can come at mercy from a different point for a minute, Romans 12:1 ¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Romans 1-8 are doctrinal, 9-11 are a parenthesis, and 12 starts a practical application section. So chapter 12 may be read as immediately following chapter 8. All that stuff in chapter 8 about being spiritual minded instead of carnally minded, the ability to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit, intercession, being more than conquerors, & all the rest of the walk in glory is all identified in 12:1 as the mercies of God, those mercies of God by which Paul begs us to present our bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." This speaks not only to our complete inability to do anything right proceeding with our carnal thinking processes, but also to our real ability through the Spirit to present out bodies holy. I think that's a distinction that clarifies the various thoughts of our discussion nicely, a distinction that obtains at the moment of the new birth, and pertains throughout the practical walk in holiness. Spec: Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work! So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place. Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!) At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all. So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other way than before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God. Tom: Are we talking about the man being tricked more than once the same way, over and over again the same way, or making believe he is being tricked to trick God? I'm not being facetious; this is an intriguing area of discussion. I remember a bunch of us WC trying to pin VP down in a related discussion one night. I don't think he wanted to present us with something that was too hard for us to deal with lest we fall short & get wrapped up in condemnation, but finally, he said that if we really wanted an answer, God will always show us before we blow it. Me talking now: God DOES want us to walk in the light. What kind of God wouldn't warn us before we stepped in it? Jesus said, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world." Makes sense to me. Truth! I also remember - & I bring it up because I believe it, & it pertains to the discussion - that VP said that walking in the light is not hard like people think - that one can walk for days in the light. I've done that on occasion. It's not like I never had an impure thought in my head, but I didn't go with it. One time of great fellowship, the light was revealing so much darkness, but it didn't hurt: see the thought, throw it out, see the thought, throw it out. Not that I was sinning, but it was still like I was walking in a state of continuous forgiveness, & I believe the blood of Jesus Christ was cleansing me of sin the whole time. Then there's the stumbling. I remember another time, I came across these three believers in earnest discussion back in the day. They had spent three days all screwed up trying to figure out how to get out of it & back into the walk in light. They had come to the conclusion that the only way to keep out of the soup was just not to sin anymore, so that had agreed that they wouldn't ever sin again. I almost laughed out loud. I certainly must have looked at them like they were from another planet. Spec: We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy: Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area. Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truth iniquity is purged) What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem! Tom: Spec, I believe that truth of evil is part of the solution, but the sinner has some pure good truth that is supposed to be operative in his life, but is being taken up by darkness. He is missing that good part. He's believed a lie instead. The light will reveal the darkness, but it is the goodness of God operative in that part of his life that will make him free. Both revelations are necessary. Spec: The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives! After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must findsome other problem area to entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid! Tom: I have to point out here that if you've seen your adversary's entire bag of tricks, been delivered, all nice & clean, trap door shut with the truth of God's Word that makes you free; nevertheless, your adversary is coming back. Count on it. It's what they do. Jesus: When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Tom: They're smart in their particular area of expertise, but limited. And often stupidly overplay their own hand. If you are living in the light of God's promises in the area in which your adversary fooled you, then he appears stupid to have come back, & he'll have no point of entree, for you will see his lie for what it is. But, if you've become lax, & reverted to old thinking & habits (THAT'S what he is checking for), then you won't see his entrance. Now whose the fool? Just saying he'll be back. Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary... Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward! Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he? Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us! Tom: I believe that happens also, thank God. And thank you for pointing out our recompense of reward by our loving Father. Spec: Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly. But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of. Tom: Reminds me of Proverbs 25:16 ¶Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it. Spec: To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ? God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short. And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace. Tom: Also reminds me of the children of Israel eating manna. They had a daily amount. Jesus is the true bread of life. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof; everyday we get our portion of Jesus Christ to deal with it. Excellent points, Spec - thanks. Tom

Hi Newlife, RE: "If you have unconditional salvation, then sin is a non-issue...," Sounds to me like one of these catchy, pat phrases that is designed to get you to thinking, but not necessarily because it has any sound thinking to be arrived at by all your thinking. Sin is still sin. Unconditional salvation doesn't change the nature of sin. Sin is evil. The sinner is still tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. Serious stuff; he is out to kill you, and take away everything godly that you've already built up in this life, and also take away everything good that you could build up in this life, and be rewarded for in the next. The one who uses his liberty in Christ as an occasion to sin might treat it as a non-issue, but that doesn't make it a non-issue. Sin still has dire consequences. It offends God, does despite to the Spirit, screws up marriages, & every relationship, screws up your life in every way. It's accurately likened to one eating his own vomit. To use liberty as an occasion to sin is a really stupid move, after which the sinner is walking in darkness - how great is that darness - he doesn't even know what he is stumbling over, but one thing many sinners know at that point is that far from being a non-issue, their sin has become an insurmountable issue, they're lives unmanageable, themselves out of control. In a moment of clarity, they might look back to see how foolish they were to think their liberty made sin a non-issue. To say unconditional salvation makes sin a non-issue is to adopt the attitude of the foolish sinner at his most naive point, and make a doctrine out of it. Rather say that salvation with conditions is like love with strings. We have not been freely given; we cannot freely give. The love with which we are supposed to serve one another takes on a great propensity to selfishness. The fruit of the Spirit against which there was no law now suddenly has laws that can stop it. The Spirit by which we crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts now finds us trying of ourselves to stay in salvation instead of as Jude 1:21 says, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Have my beliefs concerning salvation changed concerning salvation changed since I left TWI. YES! We were taught that God moved in Christ; now it is our move was error % opened the door for all manner of sin. God is ALWAYS 1st in the Spirit. Remember God said that all these spiritual matters were operated by God. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Triple reflective pointing to God energizes, divides, & distributes. But it was changed to a car battery that we operated, not God, & we operated it at our own will. That fleshly weak will just let us back into eating our own vomit again, being desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another Since the coming of Jesus Christ with the Comforter, we're supposed to love each other like Jesus loved us. He spoke the Word to us & said the Father was doing the works in him that were the words he spoke, & that's how he kept the Adversary out of our lives. He saw the Father work & he worked - that close. We are supposed to one with Jesus & GOd the way Jesus was one with God. We're supposed to see Jesus, the head over all things to the church working - and we work - that close. And every input energized by Christ & spoken by us comes from glory and keeps the Adversary away from our family. We ride that glory trail led by the glorified one, giving us input from the place where he is - looking for the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. That's what my understanding of salvation has evolved into. And nothing shall separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus made sin a non-issue. Walking as he walked keeps it that way practically - nothing less or other works. That's salvation; salvation trumps everything. Galatians 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Tom

Hello Melvin, Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you were refreshed by my post. No "patience" was required to read yours; I thoroughly enjoyed it. Your premise promises to play out perfectly spiritually. I just ordered your book, and I'm looking forward to reading how it does play out. Concepts that are "new" enough, even if they fit seamlessly with the old that people accept without question, often appear ridiculous. Expectations for growth appear before our mind's eye to proceed in a linear fashion. I learned so much last year, so I'll learn the same amount next year. But knowledge grows exponentially, and the true knowledge of the love of Christ performs exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. We hang back behind walls we've built between us and else. Jesus, the beautiful one, our beloved, stands behind our wall, he looks in through the windows, showing himself through the latticework. If we behold him there, he speaks to us and says to us, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. Come out from behind that wall you've built. Come with me into the springtime; the earth is bearing fruit. It sounds that, like the Magi, you noticed the clues that the Lord left you, the Lord, peeking through the latticework, and followed him out into the springtime bearing fruit. And you wrote it in a book Thanks for rising up and going with him.

Hi Twinky, I hope you don't think when I was talking about the promise that we can see God move & speak that I was one waiting for revelation before I would open my mouth. I don't think it is hard. God works in us to will and to do. The promise is to those who believe that. It's not hard when we walk in love instead of fear - just flows. A couple of days ago, I was talking to this AA fellow, & he mentioned his higher power. In my response I used the term God. He said he didn't like the term God; it touched on bad things in his mind. I asked, how about the term Father. He smiled & said he liked that & the conversation opened up. Like "Thank you! God bless you!" A perfect example. That easy. No problem with God working in us. The only problem is our heads & hearts believing that he does. And yes, I do think that it is a hangover from TWI for many. I remember back in NY in the early 70's, we were always talking about what God was doing. We were so hungry to learn everything. Word came down the pike that we weren't to speak experiences, but only the Word. BS! We are SUPPOSED to be talking about what God & Jesus Christ are doing in the Body! I was with a couple of believers a little while ago, & I shared with them how when I was in torturous pain after an accident, Jesus Christ appeared to me & stood over me with the crown of thorns on his head & blood pouring down his face & spoke to me about how he had gone there before me for my sake & gone through to glory so we could follow. One of the others with me literally, physically, jumped. She had seen the same thing. How few people I have told. I've known her for decades & neither one of us had told the other. Big doors opened up for me after that as I looked to see what Jesus did in the 1st century. Appeared to Paul multiple times, told him how to carry out the ministry. Appeared to Ananias. Had two way conversations with both of them. Appeared to Stephen who spoke to him. And these guys went all over telling how the Lord did this & that. Big mouths. It's like the parents of the man born blind not saying anything about Jesus healing their son for fear of the Jews. No more. I'm not ashamed. My heart is humbled and melted. Besides, we're not running the show; he is. You'd be amazed at how many I've spoken to about Jesus's actions in my life have opened up to tell me times when they knew the Lord was working with them, talking with them. The attitude of those 1st century folk was we cannot but speak of the things we have seen and heard. Dang, give the Lord a free hand. His hand in our mouths - I like that.

The word is "dunamis." VP called it potential power. Bullinger defines it as "inherent power; the power of reproducing itself." I like that. It's (the Comforter) what gives us the ability to speak as we see Jesus and God working John 14:10-12.

Jesus said those who believe in me, the works that I do they shall do also. In the context, he says the words I speak, the Father does the works. Speaking of the coming Comforter, those who believe speak like that. When we walk one with the Father & the Son, we see them work, and we speak that those who hear may believe for the very sake of the works that our words are. That's the promise to those who believe. . You shall receive power & you shall be witnesses. I wonder if that power is the word for active power have to look it up.

Yeah, I tried JewGen in the wee hours of the morning when I couldn't sleep & likewise had a hard time getting around. Thanks for the other tips. Dad's grandparents (I'll have to find out whose side it's on) lived in Russia. His uncle Bernard (after whom he was named) jumped from a 2nd story window to avoid people who had come to draft him into the army. Unfortunately, he impaled himself on a fence & died. That's when grandpa decided to move to the US. More later, darling. Hafta run

Wow, thanks. I bought Dragon Natural Speaking 12 recently, & they gave me a free version of Family Tree software with it. It came with a brief period of free use of ancestry.com resources, but I was too busy to use them at the time, & it's harder to put together a lineage without them. I asked my dad (Jewish ancestry) where he was born, but all he knows is Brooklyn. I was looking at his birth certificate today (for unrelated cause). I'll have to take another look (safety deposit box), but it was pretty hard to read. I might have to send for another one. I hope I can contact a nearby Synagogue & be able to trace that document. That would be great. Thanks for sharing all this great stuff & heart. I always love conversing with you also. :knuddel:/> Tom

Wow, lot of stuff here & throughout. No offense intended, but this sounds like typical OT Jews to me :). God blesses them through no righteous merit on their part, & somehow it becomes a matter of THEY'RE doing or not doing. I don't think historically that worked too well for them. Paul called it, "going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Really, no offense meant, Abigail; I just got a smile out of that one. Gotta love em. Beautiful philanthropic philosophy toward all the world you mentioned though. I've seen that as part and parcel of their present day culture in many (figured I'd better say something nice). "So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days." Very cool, thanks for the homework & answer.

Possibly because his mother was a Christian believer with honorable biblical mention.

Sounds like you have legitimate concerns, but you lost me. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could have followed you, but I didn't.

Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines? Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US. Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors? Thanks for your honestly on these things. Tom

Wow, DNA, now you're talking. I'll have to see if I can find those studies. Thanks.

Hmm, maybe, but I really don't want to debate it; I just want to know. Doctrinally, people take it as a sign of this or that. That would be interesting to me, but, really, if no one even knows if that's actually Israel over there, who cares what it means doctrinally? Doctrinally, born again Jews & not born again Jews think we should "pray for the peace of Israel." People see it as a sign of the coming end or the coming Messiah. People attach all kinds of doctrinal significance to it. But is that even really Israel over there? I'll post it anywhere the question belongs, but I really just want to know if anyone knows. Awful lot of hubbub going on both politically & doctrinally because it is assumed THAT'S Israel - I mean, if it is not even Israel.

So, should we take the word of persecutors, "called" by whom, the author of lies?

It is considered a significant sign biblically by many that the "chosen" people have reunited in their own nation, but have they? Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they trace their lineage back to biblical Israel? I can't. Can you? Can anyone do that these days? Do any of you know the answer to that? Thanks you, Tom

Got it. Thanks for the explanation, Mark.

Wow, here you have been talking about bouncing around to different worlds, transitioning to different existences, transitioning to different timelines, & you call what Mark said new age? Oh, you're just joking, & I didn't get the joke, making fun at Mark's expense, being so damn rude as you say. Tired & a little slow here. Sorry I thought better of you.

Hi Mark, sorry I haven't gotten back to you on that editing. I will. I beg to differ on the above quoted statement. The second death can't be the death of death because it is the death of people. Rev 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, KJV unless I'm missing what you're saying.