Ham

"We KNOW something is seriously wrong with you. It will go better for you if you admit it. Spill your guts, it's your only chance". Unbelievable.. they must've "mastered" da revelation manifestations alright. I should have told him, "you're right. My mother and father were from outer space".

But now it looks like they have "upgraded" the process. Apparently, now you can throw a few insults. I guess things are changing there. Getting worse.

I dunno.. I've been on both ends of this Oldies, snobber and snobbie. Marker and avoider, and marked and avoided. Now I'm just another humble greasespot, heh heh. Gives me a unique perspective I think. All the little things the guy was doing was just so typical of some of the things that leadership instructed ME to do. Just act kind of nice, even though you know that YOU and Da MINISTRY are right, and act as nice as you can. Avoid ANY kind of logical discussion, avoid talking about the word or the ministry, and excuse yourself as soon as you can possibly do so. This is the standard operating procedure when it comes to dealing with "copouts". As far as family tables are concerned, there is nothing left to even complain about, heh heh.. really. Gone almost as quick as it started.

For the life of me, I just can't see how or why anybody would want to go back- even to "da good old days". Even then, many of us had the most anal, obsessive, STUPID and sadistic leadership that one could ever wish for. Even in the EARLY 1970's. I am of the opinion that God gives us a calling that is unique, one that fits YOU. And your personality, and your own personal abilities. One thing I observed about TWI, they had no clue about how to figure out what God REALLY wanted you to do. At least in my case, all of the classes and activity did little more than to cover up my true calling. Mike, so you think the whole end of life is to "master" PFAL? Go ahead, nobody is stopping you. Maybe, just maybe, that is really what YOU need to do. Maybe this "fullness of the spirit all nine all the time" lifestyle fits YOU. Hey, I am willing to even concede, maybe that's even what God's telling YOU to do. Not me. I find myself in my own personal God-given "training course". I do not have the time in life to ignore what God would have me to do, and go back to endless rework "da accuracy" of PFAL. I have taken what good I can get from PFAL, and have moved on. And I would not mandate my course in life to anybody. Anybody who knows me would readily admit that it just would not fit anybody else, or very few.. Reminds me of "God told me to tell you.." maybe He's just telling YOU.

It all makes so much sense, at least now. I think in general, religion, twi more so, and maybe less now- society, tries to put both parties in a box that just plain old does not fit. The woman is supposed to be some kind of meek, subservient that relies on the man for any kind of final say for anything. That may be awful, but look what they do to the man. He is supposed to be some kind of superman, able to take on all problems without getting even out of breath. For most, it is very dissapoining to find out that these kind of expectations in a relationship are impossible, or at the least, unworkable. We held so tightly to GUIDELINES that we lost freedom, at least in my opinion. Add to this all of the defensive mechanisms that most people have in place. It is almost guaranteed that you do not really know who or what you married, and that for a very long time. My poor ex woke up one day to finally realize she was married to a 47 year old hippy- that was not really likely to change. I on the other hand, woke up to find approximately the same age of a redneck. I kind of thought it was "cool" though. I could live with it, she couldn't. And I don't blame her or have any hard feelings about it. I think a lot of this "renewing of the mind" really was responsible for this kind of nonsense. Just covered up what people were really like. Sometimes I joke about sending the poor newlyweds a sympathy card, heh heh. But that's life I guess.. sometimes everything does not work out the way you wanted or planned. I guess sometimes it does.

If he is one of the unknown posters here, I imagine I will find out shortly, heh heh.

Same guy (and I won't give a name in a million years- he turned out kind of OK) would pray for God to "bless" his maijuana, but not his acid. Thought the acid was a little too far outside of "God's jurisdiction".

Maybe we are talking about the wrong kind of "recovery". What I am thinking of would require an army of plastic surgeons..

Just one question. "did you pass the acid test?"

Maybe the emails are robot generated. They can then blame the machine for giving out insults.. that would be typical.

I once knew a guy that relied on "revelation" to be able to pass cars on blind turns.. yikes.

Lets see. I did not, at least at the time, believe that those were "the words da holy ghost speaking to you by me" and never really bought into that concept. The Bible talked about SIT, and for me, that was good enough. On top of that, I had and still have some real doubts about the India experience he spoke about in session one. In spite of not LITERALLY believing wierwille, and not LITERALLY carrying out his instructions, I spoke in tongues. Now he says, "If you believe that this is just VP, you will never manifest." At the time, I thought he was giving far too much credit to himself. Are you suggesting, that somehow, counter to Wierwille's writings, that somehow I received "a false tongue"? Lets consider things a little further.. it was not a known language to me, and I was not possessed, completely in control of my faculties. Neither did I open my mouth and "breath in the spirit" I just spoke. Maybe this is like the baptism issue. Got everything, but somehow must humble oneself and go back to get baptized because somehow, the new birth really means nothing. So, if what he said was actually true, and THE WORD OF GOD, in order for me to genuinely manifest the spirit, I must go back, humble myself to da teachings of wierwille, and do it all over. Somehow, I don't buy it.

But I should be allowed to get in a little trouble. This is "just plain silly" after all.

Now I've done it. I spent about half of my childhood in "trouble".. why stop a good thing, heh heh..

Just another thought.. what are they afraid of? Why this FEAR of "da fiery darts of da adversary?" Seems to me that TRUTH will not burn. Truth will easily stand up to any kind of scrutiny. If they HAVE the truth, why be afraid? Label people who ask questions as "trouble makers"? "Mah peoples, don't listen to them...". Perhaps they are not as sure as they would have us believe.

"A firestorm of questions".. well.. what is that, in TWI speak, anyway? They have a different name for it.. "fiery darts of da wicked". Ooooh, ooooh, don't let one get stuck in yeh... you'll end up puzzessed or worse. It seems to me, anything true, good, or worthwhile will stand up under the heat of questions. But not for TWI. Doctrinally, maybe SOME of it would stand up- but the vast majority of their "new light" along with almost all of the practical details wouldn't survive very long. It's pathetic when you have to defend error with threat of possession. All I can say is, go ahead TWI. Defend your ignorance to the death. It's only your life, you know.

The last I checked, surly means bad tempered and rude. Sounds like he's describing himself. I wonder if he really knows what it means. Sounds to me like they really put the heat to this guy. I think they have moved the "mark and avoid" methodology up a step- now they are no longer polite about it. Apparently name calling is the preferred treatment for us "copouts". It's only conjecture, but I really don't think they have the same guy as a site administrator.. I'd bet the farm that somebody else is generating these email responses, or at least dictating them. What I don't understand is, why even bother responding? If they think this kind of confrontation is "backing down da adversary" they are wrong on every count. Every response simply illustrates the asses that they really have become. But it's too late now- can't take them back. They probably wouldn't put this guy in charge of cleaning out a hen house after what he "did".

Sorry.. thought it was funny at the time.. heh heh..

Hey Johnny! I'll have to remember that the next time we exchange solicitations. "How you doing? And the wife? And "Ed" ?" Heh heh heh heh.

Well, I saw a few too. Prayed for several people, and the miraculous did occur. But as a whole, I think miracles, especially anything big enough to command anybody's attention, was highly over-rated at the least, to manufactured at the worst. And the measuring stick was greatly shortened. By the mid-90's, it seemed they were digging down to the bottom of the barrel to have any message of "victory" to proudly proclaim to the household.. I think those of us who were really humble and tried to glorify God saw some real stuff happen. But I would not attribute those results to "the greatness" of da vey. Then, and especially now. Slowly, over the years, I think the leadership evolved into something not much different than a witchdoctor. Always on guard, having to constantly "prove" that their "spells" were effective, and that they commanded the proper respect.

Just an added thought.. seems that this new "definition" for a miracle makes it a win-win situation for THEM. If it doesn't happen, it's because of their greatness. If something bad does happen to you, woe unto you! You must have been extra devilish or something, even though you obeyed the stupid mandate to the letter. And then you serve as one more example to the others of what happens to somebody who was "lazy", "recalcitrant", or some such nonsense. To me, at least anymore, these kind of explanations sound like a guy who failed to raise somebody from the dead because the dead guy just wasn't humble. Just another recalcitrant fool that refused to cooperate.

OK.. I know some real ones happened- I personally witnessed a few. But.. by far and wide, anything miraculous, at least in the last twenty years coming out of that place seems to me to at best "manufactured". Shortly before I left, the leadership was fishing rather heavily for anything supernatural. Somehow, you were a hero if you somehow ended up getting your favorite parking spot at K-mart. And miracles were rather vague, and questionable. Things like "things could have been a lot worse if WE did not have OUR people prepared for such and such..." While they demand higher standards from their followers, the measuring stick for what is or what is not a miracle seems to have relaxed, greatly. No longer do they need to actually produce anything. No healings, no wonders. It the followers will obey, the "miracle" seems to have evolved to a form of what did NOT happen. "See? You obeyed your leader, and your kid did NOT get run over by that car". And it seems the followers buy it. Of course, this makes their job much easier. "Da Bot says, devils from lower Slobovia are planning a mass attack upon god's pure household, even as we speak". A week later, nothing has happened. Some leader stands up all teary eyed, saying how "thankful" he is for da Bot, that had such forsight to avert such a disaster. And everybody just sits there.. glassy look in their eyes. But once is not enough. We have a history of "disaster after disaster" that apparently was averted by the MOG/WOG, somehow by "standing in da gap" with the strength of Samson, averting said disaster. Oh well, I guess they have to "earn" their keep somehow. I have been trying to put some of these events together on a timeline. Anybody out there know anything?

Belle- that does say a lot.. they may "appear" to have it good, and the universe unjustly being kind. Some folks I know have enough money and property to throw away. While I would like da money, I would NOT want their problems. Makes me glad to have what I've got..

Well, at least one good thing came out of this- contrary to some claims, lo and behold- they have NOT changed. And here is the evidence. Witness the cyber-snobbery and cyber-mark-and-avoid. "Uh, oh. "nice" to see you. hope family is OK, (door slams)" Yep. Didn't even say "goodbye". I remember the "instructions" we were given regarding a mark-and-avoid relative. "He is just working through a few problems. 1. Do NOT talk about the verd with the individual. 2. Do NOT talk about ministry activities, in any way, shape or form. 3. He has been "instructed" to not bother you with ANY questions. 4. If he has questions, refer him to me. 5. Oh, you can be "polite" when he runs accross your path." I don't know what the rest of you think, but I think that this is about as rude as you can get. Nothing has changed. Nothing at all. "They" have been told (threatened) to avoid confrontation with you at all costs. Don't wanna get "contaminated" you know. Afraid they'll get the cooties if you drink from "their" designated fountain.

"So, John B's experiment showed him that it was more difficult than anticipated to have even a cyber two-way communication situation." I bet it showed him a heck of a lot more. I bet he found that he has to kiss TWI's backsides in more ways than he thought possible even before..